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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#21
What do you see as the best overall version of the Bible?
That would be strictly a matter of opinion and I am not proficient enough in Greek to be able to make such a determination. Personally, I like the ASV for accuracy but at times it is so literal that it even follows the Greek syntax which makes it difficult to read.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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#22
That would be strictly a matter of opinion and I am not proficient enough in Greek to be able to make such a determination. Personally, I like the ASV for accuracy but at times it is so literal that it even follows the Greek syntax which makes it difficult to read.
I use the NKJV mostly, but I do like the GW. How do you feel about these two.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#23
I use the NKJV mostly, but I do like the GW. How do you feel about these two.
I generally use the NKJV to teach from when teaching the NT or the NAS when teaching from the OT.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#24
"Superior having become to the angels, as much as more excellent beyond theirs, he has inherited a name." .
i don't find that really hard OHT, you need to watch Yoda in Stars Wars more often....:p
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#26
Personally, I like the ASV for accuracy but at times it is so literal that it even follows the Greek syntax which makes it difficult to read.
1. What Christians are generally not aware of if that the ASV is simply an "Americanized" version of the British Revised Version of 1881. This is clearly stated their preface.

PREFACE TO THE AMERICAN EDITION
A few statements need to be made respecting the origin of this edition of the Revised Version of the English Bible.

In the course of the joint labors of the English and American Revisers it was agreed that, respecting all points of ultimate difference, the English Companies, who had had the initiative in the work of revision, should have the decisive vote. But as an offset to this, it was proposed on the British side that the American preferences should be published as an Appendix in every copy of the Revised Bible during a term of fourteen years. The American Committee on their part pledged themselves to give, for the same limited period, no sanction to the publication of any other editions of the Revised Version than those issued by the University Presses of England.

There still remained the possibility that the British Revisers, or the University Presses, might eventually adopt in the English editions many, or the most, of the American preferences, in case these should receive the approval of scholars and the general public. But soon after the close of their work in 1885 the English Revision Companies disbanded; and there has been no indication of an intention on the part of the Presses to amalgamate the readings of the Appendix, either wholly or in part, with the text of the English editions.

2. The second -- and most important thing which Christians are generally not aware of is that the Revised Version (and therefore the ASV) are EXTREMELY UNTRUSTWORTHY. This was brought out is great detail by John W. Burgon in his book The Revision Revised (1883) where he made this unequivocal statement:

My one object has been to defeat the mischievous attempt which was made in 1881 to thrust upon this Church and Realm a Revision of the Sacred Text, which—recommended though it be by eminent names—I am thoroughly convinced, and am able to prove, is untrustworthy from beginning to end.

Anyone who wants the truth about the MLVB, ASV, and RV owes it to himself to read and study The Revision Revised.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#27
1. What Christians are generally not aware of if that the ASV is simply an "Americanized" version of the British Revised Version of 1881. This is clearly stated their preface.

PREFACE TO THE AMERICAN EDITION
A few statements need to be made respecting the origin of this edition of the Revised Version of the English Bible.

In the course of the joint labors of the English and American Revisers it was agreed that, respecting all points of ultimate difference, the English Companies, who had had the initiative in the work of revision, should have the decisive vote. But as an offset to this, it was proposed on the British side that the American preferences should be published as an Appendix in every copy of the Revised Bible during a term of fourteen years. The American Committee on their part pledged themselves to give, for the same limited period, no sanction to the publication of any other editions of the Revised Version than those issued by the University Presses of England.

There still remained the possibility that the British Revisers, or the University Presses, might eventually adopt in the English editions many, or the most, of the American preferences, in case these should receive the approval of scholars and the general public. But soon after the close of their work in 1885 the English Revision Companies disbanded; and there has been no indication of an intention on the part of the Presses to amalgamate the readings of the Appendix, either wholly or in part, with the text of the English editions.

2. The second -- and most important thing which Christians are generally not aware of is that the Revised Version (and therefore the ASV) are EXTREMELY UNTRUSTWORTHY. This was brought out is great detail by John W. Burgon in his book The Revision Revised (1883) where he made this unequivocal statement:

My one object has been to defeat the mischievous attempt which was made in 1881 to thrust upon this Church and Realm a Revision of the Sacred Text, which—recommended though it be by eminent names—I am thoroughly convinced, and am able to prove, is untrustworthy from beginning to end.

Anyone who wants the truth about the MLVB, ASV, and RV owes it to himself to read and study The Revision Revised.
I do not judge a translation on the basis of what others say about it. I judge a translation based on how I see it in relation to the original languages. Every translation has its translational issues without exception. I have found the ASV and the Revised to be quite good.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#28
I'm still waiting for the New Universal Translation to come out.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#29
1J 5:7 in the KJV has no basis neither in the majority texts nor in the most ancient ones. It is taken from Latin.
Please read this pamphlet through to understand that this is genuine Scripture. Here is an excerpt:

"Edward Hills admits that there is not as much Greek manuscript support for this passage as there is for many other passages in the New Testament. However, there is an abundance of other ancient manuscript evidence in support of the passage. As Hills says,,‘The first undisputed citations of the Johannine comma occur in the writing of two 4th-century Spanish bishops… In the 5th century the Johannine comma was quoted by several orthodox African writers to defend the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals, who…were fanatically attached to the Arian heresy’. ‘Evidence for the early existence of the Johannine comma is found in the Latin versions and in the writings of the Latin Church Fathers’. Among these is Cyprian (c. 250) and Cassiodorus (480–570), as well as an Old Latin manuscript of the 5th or 6th century, and in the Speculum, a treatise which contains an Old Latin text. It is also found in the great mass of the later Vulgate manuscripts and in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate.8"

www.tbsbibles.org/pdf_information/40-1.pdf
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
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#30
I do not judge a translation on the basis of what others say about it. I judge a translation based on how I see it in relation to the original languages. Every translation has its translational issues without exception. I have found the ASV and the Revised to be quite good.
No one is asking you to "judge" anything. The ASV has already been judged and found wanting. But if you desire the truth, and not fables, you owe it to yourself to see what Burgon has said on the basis of actual research, not mere opinions.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#31
Now yus back to banging the KJV drum...



 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#32
Please read this pamphlet through to understand that this is genuine Scripture. Here is an excerpt:

"Edward Hills admits that there is not as much Greek manuscript support for this passage as there is for many other passages in the New Testament. However, there is an abundance of other ancient manuscript evidence in support of the passage. As Hills says,,‘The first undisputed citations of the Johannine comma occur in the writing of two 4th-century Spanish bishops… In the 5th century the Johannine comma was quoted by several orthodox African writers to defend the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals, who…were fanatically attached to the Arian heresy’. ‘Evidence for the early existence of the Johannine comma is found in the Latin versions and in the writings of the Latin Church Fathers’. Among these is Cyprian (c. 250) and Cassiodorus (480–570), as well as an Old Latin manuscript of the 5th or 6th century, and in the Speculum, a treatise which contains an Old Latin text. It is also found in the great mass of the later Vulgate manuscripts and in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate.8"

www.tbsbibles.org/pdf_information/40-1.pdf
1Jn. 5:7 has the worst MSS evidence of any verse of the NT. In fact, it has NO MSS evidence in the Greek it is almost non existent. It really should not be there. No Greek text contains this verse in the body of the text until 1520. There are some 300 Greek manuscripts of 1John and of these 300 manuscripts, the longer reading appears in only eight very late manuscripts none of which date prior to the the tenth century AD. This is in MSS 221. Of these eight, four have it only as a marginal note and does not appear as part of the body of the text. It did not actually become part of the body of the text until it was added in MSS 61 in 1520. The other four are one from the tenth century, one from the twelfth century, one from the fourteenth century and one from the fifteenth century. Priscillian, a Spanish Bishop from 340-385 AD was the first one to add this longer reading to the text of his Latin MSS in about 380. Thereafter, it continued to appear in all succeeding Latin MSS.

So, I suppose the big question is, why does this appear in the KJV?
Erasmus and Froben (a printer in Basle Switzerland) sought to be the first to publish the Greek NT and beat the Spanish publication of Computensian Polyglot to the market place. The Erasmus text was first published in 1516.
Problems:

1. Erasmus had very limited access to reliable Greek MSS.
2. The Greek MSS of the gospels he used contained nothing prior to the twelfth century.
3. He only had one MSS of the book of Acts and the Epistles from the twelfth century. He also had a copy of the Latin Vulgate.
4. Still, the longer reading containing verse seven did not appear in the 1516 edition. It was not found in the twelfth century MSS used by Erasmus. This resulted in a fevered controversy because many preferred the longer reading. Erasmus then issued a challenge that if anyone could produce a Greek MSS that contained this verse, he would revise his publication. In Britain the MSS 61 was then produced following this challenge and true to his word, Erasmus inserted the longer reading into his third edition in 1522. This verse simply has no Greek MSS evidence to support it.

 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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#33
No one is asking you to "judge" anything. The ASV has already been judged and found wanting. But if you desire the truth, and not fables, you owe it to yourself to see what Burgon has said on the basis of actual research, not mere opinions.
Nonsense. How much do you know of the original languages that you can feel so confident in defending Burgon's opinion of this or any other translation?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#34
Please read this pamphlet through to understand that this is genuine Scripture. Here is an excerpt:

"Edward Hills admits that there is not as much Greek manuscript support for this passage as there is for many other passages in the New Testament. However, there is an abundance of other ancient manuscript evidence in support of the passage. As Hills says,,‘The first undisputed citations of the Johannine comma occur in the writing of two 4th-century Spanish bishops… In the 5th century the Johannine comma was quoted by several orthodox African writers to defend the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals, who…were fanatically attached to the Arian heresy’. ‘Evidence for the early existence of the Johannine comma is found in the Latin versions and in the writings of the Latin Church Fathers’. Among these is Cyprian (c. 250) and Cassiodorus (480–570), as well as an Old Latin manuscript of the 5th or 6th century, and in the Speculum, a treatise which contains an Old Latin text. It is also found in the great mass of the later Vulgate manuscripts and in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate.8"

www.tbsbibles.org/pdf_information/40-1.pdf
It can be in all Latin or Spanish versions, I have no problem with that.

There is just virtually no support for this passage to be in Greek. Thats why this passage should not be in any Bible translation from Greek.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#35
Now yus back to banging the KJV drum...



I am so sick of the attitudes of the KJV only crowd toward other sound, legitimate translations I could scream. If I had known this was going to morph into that discussion I would have never posted on this thread.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,075
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#36
Nonsense. How much do you know of the original languages that you can feel so confident in defending Burgon's opinion of this or any other translation?
apparently, he read it, and it supported his position, ergo, it must be correct.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,075
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#37
I am so sick of the attitudes of the KJV only crowd toward other sound, legitimate translations I could scream. If I had known this was going to morph into that discussion I would have never posted on this thread.
I agree. I didn't expect this turn, either.

I DO appreciate all of you that have offered true opinions, after considering the possibilities of this translation being worthwhile.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#38
Sorry, but Christians should not get their hopes up with another modern version.

1. The MLVB claims that the American Standard Version (ASV)is the most accurate. That is patently false, since the ASV is just another modification of the Revised Version (RV) of 1881, which was produced primarily by Westcott & Hort. You can expect many of the same issues with this version, e.g. 1 John 5:7 has been EXPUNGED.

"...They discovered that the ASV was the most accurate translation, and initially started a study Bible cross
reference section for it..."

2. The quality of the translation itself is not outstanding. Here is a sample with the literal interlinear translation shown below.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

In [the] beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

1:2 This one was in the beginning with God. Why "this one" when "the same" is perfectly adequate, and in fact "he" could be used?

He was in the beginning with God

1:3 All things became through him, and without him nothing became that has become into being. Why "became" (which is meaningless) when "emerged" is the actually word, and and "made" makes perfect sense?

All things through him emerged, and without him emerged not even one [thing] that has emerged

1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

In him life was, and the life was the light of men

1:5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it. Why "is appearing" when it actually means "shines" and is translated as "shineth"? Why "overtake" when it is runners who overtake each other in a race, but darkness tries to "overcome" light because there is an ongoing battle between Light and Darkness?

And the light in the darkness shines, and the darkness it not overcame
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#39
1. What Christians are generally not aware of if that the ASV is simply an "Americanized" version of the British Revised Version of 1881. This is clearly stated their preface.

PREFACE TO THE AMERICAN EDITION
A few statements need to be made respecting the origin of this edition of the Revised Version of the English Bible.

In the course of the joint labors of the English and American Revisers it was agreed that, respecting all points of ultimate difference, the English Companies, who had had the initiative in the work of revision, should have the decisive vote. But as an offset to this, it was proposed on the British side that the American preferences should be published as an Appendix in every copy of the Revised Bible during a term of fourteen years. The American Committee on their part pledged themselves to give, for the same limited period, no sanction to the publication of any other editions of the Revised Version than those issued by the University Presses of England.

There still remained the possibility that the British Revisers, or the University Presses, might eventually adopt in the English editions many, or the most, of the American preferences, in case these should receive the approval of scholars and the general public. But soon after the close of their work in 1885 the English Revision Companies disbanded; and there has been no indication of an intention on the part of the Presses to amalgamate the readings of the Appendix, either wholly or in part, with the text of the English editions.

2. The second -- and most important thing which Christians are generally not aware of is that the Revised Version (and therefore the ASV) are EXTREMELY UNTRUSTWORTHY. This was brought out is great detail by John W. Burgon in his book The Revision Revised (1883) where he made this unequivocal statement:

My one object has been to defeat the mischievous attempt which was made in 1881 to thrust upon this Church and Realm a Revision of the Sacred Text, which—recommended though it be by eminent names—I am thoroughly convinced, and am able to prove, is untrustworthy from beginning to end.

Anyone who wants the truth about the MLVB, ASV, and RV owes it to himself to read and study The Revision Revised.

 
Dec 28, 2016
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#40
I agree. I didn't expect this turn, either.

I DO appreciate all of you that have offered true opinions, after considering the possibilities of this translation being worthwhile.
Oh, I knew the KJVO's would infiltrate. When this thread gets rolling, they'll come in with their spiel.