Theory of Evolution

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cris_danao

Guest
#1
The so-called "missing link" is no longer missing.
"IDA"
well, that's not the "top secret" everyone must know, it doesn't make any changes either to everyone's life.

I STILL BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED ME!

the only important thing to know is the "missing link!" that can bind us to have an eternal life with God.
Link that can bind Everyone to God!

Do scientists can discover this?
 
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MaggieMye

Guest
#2
Evolution is callede THEORY of Evolution because it cannot be proven. On the contrary, Science has tried to duplicate evolution and the only time is even comes close to working is when there is a NEGATIVE mutation.

I mean, really...does anyone really believe that one cell fostered everything and that the birds and bees just figured out on their own that they should help in the whole pollination thing?? No.
Maggie
 
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Chris_lemon

Guest
#4
@MaggieMye

Evolution is a theory in the same sense that gravity is a theory...

We can see solid evidence, repeated through-out history by looking at fossils which can be dated and also by examining DNA structures.

Although their are a few exemptions, more and more is being discovered about this beautiful and inspiring process every day. (IDA for example)

To know that all life derived from a simple spark of nature is one of the simplest, most beautiful ideas ever to be discovered by man. In my opinion of course :p

I think everyone is free to their own opinion on this but really, you cannot refute the general theory.

Just my 2 cents (or pennies as i'm English!)
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,159
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United Kingdom
#5
Hi Chris,

Yep certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion. You say evolution is a theory like gravity as you can see solid evidence..

Now here is the problem.. no one disputes gravity for we can see its effect and how it affects us daily, yet with the proof of evolution that you say is hard evidence, we can't really see it in the same way, and also there are more and more scientists now using this same evidence that you would put forward for evolution, using it to prove creation :)

No matter what way we look at the world or view how it all started, one thing we can be certain is that God created everything and still sustains it. it was the breath of God that started the ball rolling not nature.. Just my 2 pennies worth lol.

GB

Phil
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#6
The thing we must remember is what state of mind we have because of the theories we trust as being true. And in this sense, I mean state of mind towards God, and ultimately towards His salvation as seen in Jesus Christ.

There are several problems in this respect if one believes in evolution. The main one is that the creation story becomes a myth, or at best an allegory. And the result of this is that it is impossible to realize the truth of man's fall into sin and death.

Without this truth, one does not need a savior.
 
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Dmurray

Guest
#7
@MaggieMye

Evolution is a theory in the same sense that gravity is a theory...

We can see solid evidence, repeated through-out history by looking at fossils which can be dated and also by examining DNA structures.

Although their are a few exemptions, more and more is being discovered about this beautiful and inspiring process every day. (IDA for example)

To know that all life derived from a simple spark of nature is one of the simplest, most beautiful ideas ever to be discovered by man. In my opinion of course :p

I think everyone is free to their own opinion on this but really, you cannot refute the general theory.

Just my 2 cents (or pennies as i'm English!)
http://www.dridino.com

Watch some of the video's on here. He basically disproves Evolution. He debates with Harvard professors etc.. who teach the theory of evolution, and he wins, every time, and they will no longer debate with him. Why? Because they know he is right.
 
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Dmurray

Guest
#8
Also if you believe in the theory of evolution, you must believe that the Bible is the infallible inspired word of God
"2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Because in Genesis Chapter 1 it clearly says that God Created.

Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#9
For the record, I don’t have any strong ideas for or against a young earth or old earth or for theistic evolution. However, I think a young earth view and special creation of the creatures has a prima facie validity from Scripture and tradition.

Having said that, take a look at this Ida (Darwinius Masillae) for yourself and tell me whether that really looks like a “missing link” (supposing that is saying anything meaningful). For one thing, it’s not even a link between apes and humans. At best, it’s a link between lemurs and anthropoid like apes.

Simply because Ida lacks a tooth comb and a grooming claw, this is supposed to make it “the Holy Grail” of our transition from lemurs to apes?

I have to say, the evidence is underwhelming. The fact is, connecting the dots with fossils is 95% pure imagination and creativity. The other 5% is having a PhD in a relevant field so that the general public will swallow your story.

Check out this article by Scientific American for a more level headed analysis:

Weak Link: Fossil Darwinius Has Its 15 Minutes: Scientific American

Maggie said,

Evolution is callede THEORY of Evolution because it cannot be proven.
The other commenter, Chris, is sort of right about this one. In science, everything is a theory. Nothing can be “proven” in technical terms (which simply means with deductive certainty) because science uses the method of induction, not deduction.

The fact that a thing is a theory doesn’t mean we don’t have excellent reasons for believing it. Gravity is in fact still a theory. But it’s a theory I’d stake my life on under the right conditions.

Chris said,

Evolution is a theory in the same sense that gravity is a theory...
They are both theories, but not in the same sense. We have direct observational evidence for the theory of gravity. We don’t have anything like this for the theory of evolution.

We can see solid evidence, repeated through-out history by looking at fossils which can be dated and also by examining DNA structures.
In fact, it’s not so simple. There isn’t a straight line of evidence from the fossil record or from DNA. There is a lot of imaginative story telling in between the evidence. It’s more like dotted lines filled in with “just so” stories.

As Alex Rosenberg observes, “It may seem a simple matter to state the logical relationship between the evidence that Scientists amass and the hypotheses the evidence tests. But philosophers of science have discovered that testing hypotheses is by no means an easily understood matter… At most, empirical evidence supports a hypothesis to some degree. But as we shall see, it may also support many other hypotheses to an equal degree… When the hypothesis under test is not a single statement like ‘All swans are white’ but a system of highly theoretical claims like the kinetic theory of gases, it is open to the theorist to make one or more of a large number of changes in the theory in light of a falsifying test, any one of which will reconcile the theory with the data… In short, theory is underdetermined by observation” (Philosophy of Science 2nd ed. 117, 139).

And so Godfrey-Smith, “Empiricists argue that there will always be a range of alternative theories compatible with all our actual evidence, and maybe a range of alternative theories compatible with all our possible evidence” (Theory and Reality 181).

Of course, there are many things which scientists use to help them select one theory over another. But let’s not be naïve and think this is a purely objective affair. The fact is, presuppositions, religious and anti-religious biases, politics, and social pressures play a much bigger role in scientific theorizing than anyone wants to admit nowadays.

As Richard Lewontin incrimatingly admitted, “Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

RICHARD LEWONTIN: Billions and Billions of Demons

And if anyone thinks this doesn’t come into play in the realm of evolution, which as Dawkins (I believe) said, makes it intellectually respectable to be an atheist, they are only fooling themselves.

So how does all this scientific dogma arise about how you’d have to be an idiot to deny evolution etc. etc.? Well that’s easy. Scientists are the new priests and, nowadays, everyone (including the Christian) is part of their congregation.


“In the present euphoria about the wonders of science you find many scientists, individually and in groups, arrogating to themselves rights that do not strictly flow from their scientific competence. They pass high judgements on … God and man, on good and evil, on culture and justice, and on the deepest issues of human destiny. And their prestige as scientists, which is in no doubt whatever, illicitly carries over in the mind of the public to these extrascientific pronouncements” (Charles Malik, “The Limitations of Natural Science,” 385).
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#10
I meant to add the following as an explanation after the Godfrey-Smith quote:

This is why evolutionists can turn their theory complete on its head when they want (when they feel imaginative enough or the evidence backs them into a corner). For example, check out this article:

Bird-from-dinosaur theory of evolution challenged: Was it the other way around?

which turns the almost universally accepted theory of how birds evolved completely on its head. I dare say that when a theory can do a complete 180, something is wrong.
 
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MaggieMye

Guest
#11
Gravity is NOT a theory. It is a fact. You let go of something at any height and if falls. Period.
 
J

JohnKnox

Guest
#12
Of course, there are many things which scientists use to help them select one theory over another. But let’s not be naïve and think this is a purely objective affair. The fact is, presuppositions, religious and anti-religious biases, politics, and social pressures play a much bigger role in scientific theorizing than anyone wants to admit nowadays.
The last time I stepped into this debate (on a Wikipedia talk page!) I quickly threw up my hands, and decided that I should just be glad that the science that I'm a part of (computers) is heavily market-driven. That means, someone can try to set himself up as a computer guru, which he might be able to in the short-term, depending on his track record, and the industry-mafia family he's got backing him. But if he comes out with an inferior technology, the market will make that clear very fast. Now, I know what you're thinking: Microsoft certainly seems to get by rather well. Yes, Microsoft is very successful, but everyone knows that what they produce is garbage! Paleontology does not experience the same market oversight, so that message is harder to get out.
 
Feb 9, 2010
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#13
It takes more faith to believe that things came about by evolution than a God created everything.

God said the wisdom of this world is foolishness to Him.

If you look at evolution there is no way that things could come about in that fashion.

Everything is orderly.

There definitely is a God that created everything.

God takes the matter of the universe and forms things with it,and then we take the things God made and make things of it.

Some people do not believe in a God that created everything so they believe that things came about by evolution.

God did not use evolution to create everything but took the matter of the universe and made everything whole.

Matt
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#14
Gravity is NOT a theory. It is a fact. You let go of something at any height and if falls. Period.
You letting go of an object at some height is a fact. This being followed by downward movement is a fact. How that all works is a theory, the theory of gravity.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#15
To know that all life derived from a simple spark of nature is one of the simplest, most beautiful ideas ever to be discovered by man. In my opinion of course :p
Actually I think the idea that all things derived from a few base things requires a lot of complex explanation. For naturalistic evolution, this requires outright absurdities (personhood coming from the impersonal, moral coming from amoral, conscious coming from non-consciousness, etc).

If you want to untangle all that by saying God did it, fine. But that's not simple, it's simply mystery. And I don't see how it's beautiful either, but I guess that's more of a subjective thing.
 
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Dmurray

Guest
#16
You letting go of an object at some height is a fact. This being followed by downward movement is a fact. How that all works is a theory, the theory of gravity.
But it is proven over and over again. The Hypothesis has been tested and has the same result everytime. We can test and observe it accurately and come to a conclusion.

Evolution however we never have, and never will. It is just as much a religion as Christianity is. They are both based upon faith. Except I admit freely that I have faith. Where scientists make up evidence, which isn't evidence at all.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#17
But it is proven over and over again. The Hypothesis has been tested and has the same result everytime. We can test and observe it accurately and come to a conclusion.
This makes the theory strong, but it doesn't move it beyond a theory. Induction simply can't do that, by the nature of the case.

Suppose you see 1 million white swans. Does this prove that all swans are white? No, but it might give you very good reason to think all swans are white. So you have this theory about swans and their being white (although that's not much of a theory).

Then lets say over a period of time of intense searching all around the American and European continents you observe 2 million more swans, all of them white. Does this prove all swans are white? No, because you don't know that you have observed all swans.

It just so happens that there are black swans in Australia (and I saw one in Florida a few months ago too).

So your theory about all swans being white can never be proven, because you can never know that you've seen all swans. But your theory about all swans being white can be disproven, because you might find a black swan (and we did).

Induction moves from particular to universals, or generalizations, but it never reaches the universal. Since no one can ever be sure that they have accounted for all the particulars or, if they have, that they know how all the particulars relate.

I'm not trying to say that this means all inductive inferences don't count as knowledge or even that the knowledge is "uncertain" (the term has a number of senses and isn't too helpful). I'm simply trying to clear up the confusion that often goes around about evolution being a theory and what this means to the scientific community.

Evolution however we never have, and never will. It is just as much a religion as Christianity is. They are both based upon faith. Except I admit freely that I have faith. Where scientists make up evidence, which isn't evidence at all.
Well they do have some data that fits nicely within their theory, and not so nicely in the Young Earth Creationist theory. For example, plastic deformation of rocks or the magnetic pole shift. This doesn't "prove" evolution of course, and it's nothing like observational or experimental confirmation, but is data that "fits" well within the broader theory.
 
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Dmurray

Guest
#18
No human has or ever will observe one creature evolve into another. As the Bible says, let them produce after their own kind

So. If you agree with what you say, then everything in this world is just a theory, and there are no facts?

It's like saying that the human Body needs oxygen.
This is something we know. But we also haven't deprived everyone on Earth from oxygen so how do we know that we need oxygen?

I think that seems silly, don't you?

We can prove things, and gravity is one of them. So is that if you put water in a freezer it will turn to ice and not to a gas. We can prove them.
 
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Dmurray

Guest
#19
This is how something becomes fact. Gravity applies to this. Evolution does not.
scientific method

 
–noun a method of research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, a hypothesis is formulated from these data, and the hypothesis is empirically tested.
 
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Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#20
No human has or ever will observe one creature evolve into another. As the Bible says, let them produce after their own kind
This may be true, but evolutionists wouldn’t think this is very important since they believe they have other ways of giving credence to their theory.


So. If you agree with what you say, then everything in this world is just a theory, and there are no facts?
No. We’re talking about theory in the scientific sense. Broadly, this means a theory is some systematized explanation of data. Obviously not everything is a theory in this sense. Ideally, a theory should be falsifiable (but this is actually much harder than it sounds).


It's like saying that the human Body needs oxygen.
This is something we know. But we also haven't deprived everyone on Earth from oxygen so how do we know that we need oxygen?

I think that seems silly, don't you?
I already said that I don’t think the fallible nature of induction deprives of us knowledge. I’m not sure what seems silly to you. If you mean that the idea that we don’t know that we need oxygen is silly, then I agree. We do know that and to claim we don’t is silly.

We can prove things, and gravity is one of them. So is that if you put water in a freezer it will turn to ice and not to a gas. We can prove them.
What do you take to be a “proof”? Do you recognize the problem with saying that I can prove to you that all swans are white by pointing to another white swan? The same problem exists with proving that water will turn to ice or that an object will fall by gravity. Of course, with these types of claims the problem exists in a more complex fashion or at a deeper level.

We may have much stronger reasons for believing the theory of gravity than that all swans are white. But this doesn’t mean one is a theory and one is a “proven fact.” Both gravity and my claim about white swans could turn out to be false.

This is how something becomes fact. Gravity applies to this. Evolution does not.
I don’t think any scientist would claim a thing has become a “fact” (in the sense you seem to be using the term) just because a hypothesis has been empirically tested. Again, white swans. I may see three white swans and say “If all swans are white then it should be the case that the next white swan I find is also white.” If I then go out and find a white swan that may add some weight to my claim, but it doesn’t make it a “fact” that all swans are white.

Both the Ptolemaic and Copernican models could account for the facts and make successful predictions, but one was still false.

You may want to argue that evolution doesn't have the same type of support or evidence that other theories do, like gravity, and you may want to use this to drive home the point that evolutionists and theistic evolutionists shouldn't be so blindly dogmatic. That's fine and I'm all for it. But attacking it's "theory-ness" and calling gravity a fact is misguided in light of how science uses those terms.