Not By Works
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You often seem to say the same things we do yet with a slightly different slant. On the one hand you say the growing pains do not cause us to lose our salvation, whereas on the other you say some do lose it. So it really seems like you are saying two different things but trying to harmonize them, when the common ground is Christ Himself, Who said He would never forsake us.
Jesus will never leave you....but many leave Jesus....
and that is what myself and phart and Stephen and others have been saying for about 34,000 pages now....but you and others are trying to make it that we are talking about works...we have never said it is about works, it is about ongoing belief....
We are counseling a couple right now who lost a 3 month old baby...and let me tell you, they are so saved & filled with the Spirit...but they are also having so many doubts about Father right now.....
But you and others would just write them off for having these doubts and place them in instant and immediate condemnation and say...they were not really saved and then try to get them saved, instead of ministering to the real need....
I think the greatest damage you guys inflict is saying to people...I do not know if anyone is saved, only God knows the heart.......then proclaim someone was never really saved to begin with.....and they need to get saved...then you act the hypocrite and act like you do nothing wrong....
and that is what myself and phart and Stephen and others have been saying for about 34,000 pages now....but you and others are trying to make it that we are talking about works...we have never said it is about works, it is about ongoing belief....
We are counseling a couple right now who lost a 3 month old baby...and let me tell you, they are so saved & filled with the Spirit...but they are also having so many doubts about Father right now.....
But you and others would just write them off for having these doubts and place them in instant and immediate condemnation and say...they were not really saved and then try to get them saved, instead of ministering to the real need....
I think the greatest damage you guys inflict is saying to people...I do not know if anyone is saved, only God knows the heart.......then proclaim someone was never really saved to begin with.....and they need to get saved...then you act the hypocrite and act like you do nothing wrong....
P
It's the difference between 1) sinning because you are weak, stupid, foolish, and ignorant ("meh"...<raises hand>), but all the while still believing, and trusting in, and loving God and his salvation, and 2) sinning because you do not care about or trust in the gracious gift of God's forgiveness anymore because you'd rather willfully indulge the lusts of the flesh.
Number 1 will not cause you to lose your salvation--you still believe in and rely on the forgiveness of God for your sins that you commit in your growing up into the stature of Christ.
Number 2 will cause you to lose your salvation because you, through your contemptuous unbelief, no longer have access to the forgiveness of God to cover your sins (faith is how you access the forgiveness of God--Romans 5:2 NIV).
I don't think we're very far apart on this. I suspect the only real difference of doctrine we have between us is that I believe the true believer can go back to unbelief, and you believe he can not. I TOTALLY respect that belief. It's not a dividing line between believers, IMO. Now if you believed that former believers still have eternal life......that's another story.
Number 1 will not cause you to lose your salvation--you still believe in and rely on the forgiveness of God for your sins that you commit in your growing up into the stature of Christ.
Number 2 will cause you to lose your salvation because you, through your contemptuous unbelief, no longer have access to the forgiveness of God to cover your sins (faith is how you access the forgiveness of God--Romans 5:2 NIV).
I don't think we're very far apart on this. I suspect the only real difference of doctrine we have between us is that I believe the true believer can go back to unbelief, and you believe he can not. I TOTALLY respect that belief. It's not a dividing line between believers, IMO. Now if you believed that former believers still have eternal life......that's another story.
I understand what you are saying. I agree that there is much we don't know about things and the Lord will have His way on this earth for sure!
Acts 4:32 tells of Barnabas bringing money to the apostles. Then it says:
Acts 5:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
It doesn't say a "certain disciple" like Luke ( He is the author of Acts the KJV says "certain man" ) writes in Acts when referring to true disciples. Examples of this are in Acts 9:36; Acts 16:10;
Luke used the term "a certain man" when referring to Cornelius before he got saved. Acts 10:1
He also used the term in Acts 19:24 when referring to Demetrius - the silversmith as being a "certain man".
Luke again used the term when referring to Lydia before the Lord opened up her heart to see the gospel. Acts 16:14
People can have a different view. My own personal one is the Peter had a word of knowledge what was going to happen to the couple because of the consequence of sin.
Both of them were God-fearing Jews and the shock of what Peter said about lying to God could have made their hearts fail - it has happened many times in other applications just in natural life.
But that's my personal opinion and others can have their own opinion too.
I don't believe that God kills people in the body of Christ. I do however believe He allows sin to have its course in our lives. Paul said in 1 Corinthians that he had turned over to satan a man for the destruction of the flesh.
I suppose things like this we will find out for sure when we are with Him....
..Anyway...I am off to bed. Have a great night!
P
You should read the Deuteronomy 31 passage where 'I will never leave you or forsake you' comes from.
It doesn't mean what the church thinks it means:
God not forsaking us is conditioned on us not forsaking Him. But the church thinks Him not forsaking us means he will never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, forsake us.
This is similar to how the church thinks that the perfect ministry of Christ means there's nothing we can do to forfeit the effect of that ministry for us. When it actually means the perfect ministry of Christ means we should continue to rely and trust in it. Likewise with this 'he will not forsake you' thing: It means since Christ will not fail or bolt and run when it gets tough for us we ought to be careful to keep our trust firmly in Him.
It doesn't mean what the church thinks it means:
"6“Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you.”
8“The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed.”
16The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them" (Deuteronomy 31:6,8,16-17 NASB)
8“The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed.”
16The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. 17“Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them" (Deuteronomy 31:6,8,16-17 NASB)
God not forsaking us is conditioned on us not forsaking Him. But the church thinks Him not forsaking us means he will never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, forsake us.
This is similar to how the church thinks that the perfect ministry of Christ means there's nothing we can do to forfeit the effect of that ministry for us. When it actually means the perfect ministry of Christ means we should continue to rely and trust in it. Likewise with this 'he will not forsake you' thing: It means since Christ will not fail or bolt and run when it gets tough for us we ought to be careful to keep our trust firmly in Him.
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Nope. This 'god' you're describing is foreign to the bible. When He said He'd never leave us or forsake us, He meant it. When Paul said NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ, He meant it.
This losing salvation is foolish talk.
If we could lose it, we would. We are not that smart or strong to keep it by ourselves.
We are kept by the power of God, not power of self.
This losing salvation is foolish talk.
If we could lose it, we would. We are not that smart or strong to keep it by ourselves.
We are kept by the power of God, not power of self.
P
Lol, it's not about living in fear of losing your salvation. It's about having a healthy respect for the fact that you can indeed be broken off because of unbelief:
The fear we are to have is like the fear we have of the flame on the kitchen stove. We don't cower in fear of it and don't go into the kitchen and as a result don't eat properly and live good. We fearfully respect the potential it has to bring destruction and so we live accordingly.
“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:19-21 NASB)
The fear we are to have is like the fear we have of the flame on the kitchen stove. We don't cower in fear of it and don't go into the kitchen and as a result don't eat properly and live good. We fearfully respect the potential it has to bring destruction and so we live accordingly.
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We are protected by the power of God. Those who are born again can not unbirth themselves. Seeing it is God who causes us to be born again, we could not stop Him giving us this new birth. We can not undo this gift, seeing His gifts are irrevocable.[Romans 11:29]
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation
1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We are protected by the power of God. Those who are born again can not unbirth themselves. Seeing it is God who causes us to be born again, we could not stop Him giving us this new birth. We can not undo this gift, seeing His gifts are irrevocable.[Romans 11:29]
The thing is, if you do not care, how can that be called faith? It seems the opposite of it. We love because He first loved us. Ours may be a fickle love at times, but His is not. He is faithful always. You are right in that I cannot conceive myself abdicating, not can I really accept that any who truly, key word there, that truly, believe, can ever be lost. God's promises speak against this. He leaves the ninety nine to seek out the one who has strayed.
Among those whom Paul was addressing (as you mentioned some time previously) were likely people who were not yet, I want to say solidified, in their faith. We have people in our church who are not saved either. Something has drawn them, the Holy Spirit, the desire for truth, they may not even know what they are looking for, perhaps some sense of comfort in this crazy world we inhabit, yet they are not yet convinced. I was a sporadic church attender during my seeking years, also, even though I wanted to escape religion entirely. Thirteen years ago I started attending church more regularly after having the reason Jesus Christ gave His life for mine (and yours) explained to me. I had a real hunger to know, and started attending the Alpha course that the church was hosting. It was during that course that I realized at some point that I needed no more convincing.
I think that those who walk away at some point were religious but lost. They did not have a faith unto salvation. They had placed their faith and hope and trust in religion, rituals, pomp, and circumstance, instead of Jesus Christ. They did not have a personal relationship with God. Even those I have spoken to say the same thing, former "Christians" who are now basically militant atheists, hostile in every way to God, Scripture, believers, say they did not encounter the Living Lord, or if they thought they had, they later believed they had been deceived. Sometimes it is hard to know, but for the fact that Scriptures do say:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]1 Deuteronomy 31:6, Be strong and courageous. Do not
be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God
goes with you; "He will never leave you nor forsake you."
2 Deuteronomy 31:8, The LORD himself goes before you
and will be with you; He will never leave you nor forsake
you. "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged."
3 Joshua 1:5, No one will be able to stand up against you
all the days of your life. "As I was with Moses, so I will
be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you."
4 1Kings 8:57, "May the LORD our God be with us as he was
with our fathers; may He never leave us nor forsake us."
5 1Chronicles 28:20, David also said to Solomon his son,
"Be strong and courageous, and do the work. "Do not be
afraid or discouraged, for the LORD God, my God, is
with you. He will not fail you or forsake you until all
the work for the service of the temple of the LORD is finished."
6 Psalms 37:28, For the LORD loves the just and will not
forsake his faithful ones. "They will be protected
forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;"
7 Psalms 94:14 "For the LORD will not reject his
people; he will never forsake his inheritance."
Psalms 55:22- Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall
sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
8 Isaiah 41:17 "The poor and needy search for water, but there is
none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will
answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them."
9 Isaiah 42:16 "I will lead the blind by ways they have not
known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn
the darkness into light before them and make the rough places
smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them."
10 Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money
and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
2 Timothy 1:7- For God hath not given us the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Among those whom Paul was addressing (as you mentioned some time previously) were likely people who were not yet, I want to say solidified, in their faith. We have people in our church who are not saved either. Something has drawn them, the Holy Spirit, the desire for truth, they may not even know what they are looking for, perhaps some sense of comfort in this crazy world we inhabit, yet they are not yet convinced. I was a sporadic church attender during my seeking years, also, even though I wanted to escape religion entirely. Thirteen years ago I started attending church more regularly after having the reason Jesus Christ gave His life for mine (and yours
) explained to me. I had a real hunger to know, and started attending the Alpha course that the church was hosting. It was during that course that I realized at some point that I needed no more convincing. I think that those who walk away at some point were religious but lost. They did not have a faith unto salvation. They had placed their faith and hope and trust in religion, rituals, pomp, and circumstance, instead of Jesus Christ. They did not have a personal relationship with God. Even those I have spoken to say the same thing, former "Christians" who are now basically militant atheists, hostile in every way to God, Scripture, believers, say they did not encounter the Living Lord, or if they thought they had, they later believed they had been deceived. Sometimes it is hard to know, but for the fact that Scriptures do say:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]1 Deuteronomy 31:6, Be strong and courageous. Do not
be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God
goes with you; "He will never leave you nor forsake you."
2 Deuteronomy 31:8, The LORD himself goes before you
and will be with you; He will never leave you nor forsake
you. "Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged."
3 Joshua 1:5, No one will be able to stand up against you
all the days of your life. "As I was with Moses, so I will
be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you."
4 1Kings 8:57, "May the LORD our God be with us as he was
with our fathers; may He never leave us nor forsake us."
5 1Chronicles 28:20, David also said to Solomon his son,
"Be strong and courageous, and do the work. "Do not be
afraid or discouraged, for the LORD God, my God, is
with you. He will not fail you or forsake you until all
the work for the service of the temple of the LORD is finished."
6 Psalms 37:28, For the LORD loves the just and will not
forsake his faithful ones. "They will be protected
forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;"
7 Psalms 94:14 "For the LORD will not reject his
people; he will never forsake his inheritance."
Psalms 55:22- Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall
sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
8 Isaiah 41:17 "The poor and needy search for water, but there is
none; their tongues are parched with thirst. But I the LORD will
answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them."
9 Isaiah 42:16 "I will lead the blind by ways they have not
known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn
the darkness into light before them and make the rough places
smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them."
10 Hebrews 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money
and be content with what you have, because God has said,
“Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
2 Timothy 1:7- For God hath not given us the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
P
Make sure you don't leave out what Deuteronomy 31 also says is the condition for him to never leave or forsake us.
And make sure you don't leave out what Paul also said about continued believing being the condition for not being able to be separated from Christ.
Yes, we are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. You have to make sure you quote all of what Peter said there in 1 Peter 1:5.
Faith is how God's keeps us apart from our own power to keep ourselves. Lose your faith and you lose the power of God to keep you until the Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5). That truth has nothing to do with us being smart or strong enough in and of ourselves to keep ourselves.
And make sure you don't leave out what Paul also said about continued believing being the condition for not being able to be separated from Christ.
Yes, we are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. You have to make sure you quote all of what Peter said there in 1 Peter 1:5.
Faith is how God's keeps us apart from our own power to keep ourselves. Lose your faith and you lose the power of God to keep you until the Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5). That truth has nothing to do with us being smart or strong enough in and of ourselves to keep ourselves.