a genuine Bible discussion

Dan58 · Aug 30, 2017

Look at the translation of Ezekiel 13:20; "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage." NLT

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against your magic charms by which you hunt souls there like birds. I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, the souls you hunt like birds." NKJV

The problem with both these translations is that the Hebrew word for "bird" or "birds" isn't used in the verse. The translators simply make an assumption that if something flies, it must be a bird.

So I believe the KJV version is correct by not inventing a word to fit; "Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly" (KJV).

But in other area's I disagree with the KJV.. I believe the word "Easter" is wrongfully inserted in Acts 12:4, the correct translation is "Passover".. The etymology of Easter is actually a pagan holiday.

trofimus · Aug 30, 2017

Dan58 said:

Look at the translation of Ezekiel 13:20; "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage." NLT

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against your magic charms by which you hunt souls there like birds. I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, the souls you hunt like birds." NKJV

The problem with both these translations is that the Hebrew word for "bird" or "birds" isn't used in the verse. The translators simply make an assumption that if something flies, it must be a bird.

So I believe the KJV version is correct by not inventing a word to fit; "Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly" (KJV).

But in other area's I disagree with the KJV.. I believe the word "Easter" is wrongfully inserted in Acts 12:4, the correct translation is "Passover".. The etymology of Easter is actually a pagan holiday.

I have no idea what the KJV reading with pillows means.

But the main thing is that the KJV is no standard to judge whether other translations are good or bad. Many times in English, you must add words not present in an original language.

fredoheaven · Aug 30, 2017

trofimus said:

So what are these ancient ones you are referring to?

Thanks

fredoheaven · Aug 30, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

1. What Christians are generally not aware of if that the ASV is simply an "Americanized" version of the British Revised Version of 1881. This is clearly stated their preface.

PREFACE TO THE AMERICAN EDITION
A few statements need to be made respecting the origin of this edition of the Revised Version of the English Bible.

In the course of the joint labors of the English and American Revisers it was agreed that, respecting all points of ultimate difference, the English Companies, who had had the initiative in the work of revision, should have the decisive vote. But as an offset to this, it was proposed on the British side that the American preferences should be published as an Appendix in every copy of the Revised Bible during a term of fourteen years. The American Committee on their part pledged themselves to give, for the same limited period, no sanction to the publication of any other editions of the Revised Version than those issued by the University Presses of England.

There still remained the possibility that the British Revisers, or the University Presses, might eventually adopt in the English editions many, or the most, of the American preferences, in case these should receive the approval of scholars and the general public. But soon after the close of their work in 1885 the English Revision Companies disbanded; and there has been no indication of an intention on the part of the Presses to amalgamate the readings of the Appendix, either wholly or in part, with the text of the English editions.

2. The second -- and most important thing which Christians are generally not aware of is that the Revised Version (and therefore the ASV) are EXTREMELY UNTRUSTWORTHY. This was brought out is great detail by John W. Burgon in his book The Revision Revised (1883) where he made this unequivocal statement:

My one object has been to defeat the mischievous attempt which was made in 1881 to thrust upon this Church and Realm a Revision of the Sacred Text, which—recommended though it be by eminent names—I am thoroughly convinced, and am able to prove, is untrustworthy from beginning to end.

Anyone who wants the truth about the MLVB, ASV, and RV owes it to himself to read and study The Revision Revised.

Like that Revisioned Revised by Dean John Burgon.

Blessings

trofimus · Aug 30, 2017

fredoheaven said:

There are two main approaches of how to decide which manuscript readings are the closest to original.

One group (protestants and catholics) believes the oldest ones generally bear the most authentic text.

Other group (eastern orthodox and kjvonly/TR only) believes that the majority of Greek manuscripts generally bear the most authentic text.

What I am saying is that the KJV reading of 1J 5 has no basis in either group. Its non-existent in Greek generally. No group will help you.

hornetguy · Aug 30, 2017

Dan58 said:

Thanks for that reference.... I see a difference in how it was said, but I agree with Trof.... If I just came across that passage in the KJV, I would have absolutely no idea what was meant by "I am against your pillows...etc" (still don't, actually

) .... this is what I would be seeing in my mind....

The NKJV and the NLT both make a lot more sense to me in this passage. Even the wording of the KJV is odd...strange syntax, etc.... "wherewith ye there hunt" .... almost painful to try to re-arrange into common, current English.

And, as quite a few of our Greek experts have stated, there are many words in Greek that simply do not have an equivalent word in English, so that the translators either had to use two or three words to convey the thought, or they had to use/create a word that would get the point across.

Very much like the translators that changed the word baptizo to "baptized", instead of using the more literal translated English word "immersed".

Bogadile · Aug 30, 2017

Well, all I got to say is reading this thread and the posts made by Angela on other threads. My faith in the KJV as a super translation is quickly evaporating.
There are three words translated hell. Three different words translated the same word.

Willie-T oldhermit and the rest, since word-for-word translation is not always the best method, what translation do you recommend in english that gets the original meaning through the best?

garee · Aug 30, 2017

I would offer that pillows would seem to represent headship, a place of the head. Kerchiefs which represent veils as head covering are used in the same way.... not as badges of pride. They were using them as signs of authority for hunting those who did not agree. It would be sort of like the head coverings of those of ISIS today.

Jacob used it in a way to honor God as sign to the messenger/angels he had encountered( Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.)

The parable reads

And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.Gen 28:16-21

The veil is rent Christ our husband is the head of His bride the church.. The new testament head covering ordinance as a ceremonial law is still in effect as sign to the angels/messengers who long to look into salvation not be subject to it . Not badges of pride to each other.

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?Ezekiel 13:18

Can't save souls by hunting after them to kill them. 911

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

garee · Aug 30, 2017

I would think parables are parables, used to hide the spiritual understanding(the gospel) The work of comparing the spiritual understanding hid to the spiritual must be done as we study to show ourselves approved of God.

Paraphrases become personal like finger prints.

(Purple in parenthesis) my comment

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein (the spiritual understanding not seen)is the righteousness of God revealed from faith (the spiritual understanding not seen)to faith (the spiritual understanding not seen): as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (the spiritual understanding not seen)Rom 1:16

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; "comparing" spiritual things with spiritual.But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1Co 2:10

oldhermit · Aug 30, 2017

Bogadile said:

Like I said earlier, that would be nothing but a matter of personal opinion and preference. Personally, I like the NKJV the NAS, the Revised or the ASV. I hear the ESV is good too.

Willie-T · Aug 30, 2017

Bogadile said:

Well, all I got to say is reading this thread and the posts made by Angela on other threads. My faith in the KJV as a super translation is quickly evaporating.
There are three words translated hell. Three different words translated the same word.

Willie-T oldhermit and the rest, since word-for-word translation is not always the best method, what translation do you recommend in english that gets the original meaning through the best?

I like a lot of translations, but my favorite is THE GOD'S WORD Translation (GW).

trofimus · Aug 30, 2017

Bogadile said:

You can use biblehub.com and see which English translation gives you the most, before you buy one.

oldhermit · Aug 30, 2017

Willie-T said:

That is not a translation, it is a paraphrase.

garee · Aug 30, 2017

I have used the American Standard. I use the KJ today but at times look to the Young's Literal when trying to make sense of something that does not seem to make what I call, biblical sense. .

There are times when not using the Greek in the way it was inspired that can cause other groups to usurp the authority of Scripture by giving it to men. Like the Catholics denomination who teach it must be loosed from Rome through an extension of sinful Peter called; “apostolic succession” that they call the Rock and not rock one of the many lively stones that makes up the spiritual house of God, the church, before it can be bound in heaven. Therefore turning things upside down which the outward Jew pertaining to the flesh also performed using the name Abraham as if either sinner was a source of faith.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 'Mathew 16:18-19 (King James)

`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'Mathew 16:18-19 (Young’s literal )

The same applies to chapter 18

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven Mat 18:18 (KJ)

18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. Mat 18:18 (YL)
.

Willie-T · Aug 30, 2017

oldhermit said:

In what specific ways?

Locutus · Aug 30, 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Word_Translation#Translation_methodology

I've never read it.

garee · Aug 30, 2017

Willie-T said:

In what specific ways?[/QUOTE

I would say in the same way as the King James literally turning things (the wills) upside down ....at times the literal can help.

18 I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you imprison, God will imprison. And whatever you set free, God will set free. GW

No perfect translation.

Willie-T · Aug 30, 2017

garee said:

Willie-T said:

Well, as far as that verse is concerned I think (and it makes sense) that nothing of the sort was ever meant.

Most all versions try to make it sound like Heaven adjusts to, or "creates" situations that will exist in Heavenly realms, according to whatever the Apostles decree should happen here. I think that is entirely backward.

I believe it means that the Apostles will have God's desires so much in their hearts that their decrees will always reflect the way God ALREADY does things.

So, I don't see that one as being too valid an example since most Bibles seem to get mistakenly hooked-up on the Apostles deciding Heavenly policy.

Willie-T · Aug 30, 2017

Locutus said:

This is from "Got Questions?"

Question: "What is the GOD'S WORD Translation (GW)?"

GOD'S WORD Translation - History
Completed in 1995, the GOD'S WORD Translation (GW) is an English translation of the Bible by the God's Word to the Nations Society. GW had its beginnings with a New Testament translation titled The New Testament in the Language of Today: An American Translation, published in 1963 by Lutheran pastor and seminary professor William F. Beck (1904–1966). In 1982, work on a revision was begun by Phillip B. Giessler, a pastor from Cleveland, Ohio, and his committee. This yielded another NT translation released in 1988 and titled New Testament: God's Word to the Nations (GWN). In 1992, earlier work was abandoned and a new translation was begun, this time based on the best Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic manuscripts currently available. In early 1994 the translation was renamed GOD'S WORD prior to being turned over to World Bible Publishers for publication in March 1995. In 2008 rights to GOD'S WORD were acquired by Baker Publishing Group.

GOD'S WORD Translation - Translation Method
The GOD'S WORD Translation uses the translation method known as “closest natural equivalence” which seeks to combine dynamic equivalence (thought for thought) with finding equivalent English ways of expressing the meaning of the original text. This procedure, the translators contend, ensures that the translation is faithful to the meaning intended by the original writer. Closest natural equivalence seeks to avoid the awkwardness and inaccuracy associated with word-for-word translation, and avoids the loss of meaning and oversimplification associated with thought-for-thought translation. Another consideration for the translators was readability, so they used common English punctuation, capitalization, and nearly perfect English grammar to express the text in clear, natural English. The GOD'S WORD Translation is printed in an open, single column format that enhances readability.

GOD'S WORD Translation - Pro’s and con’s
The GOD'S WORD Translation sometimes does a good job at rendering words/phrases how they would be rendered if the Bible was being translated into English for the first time today. With a 400+ year history of English Bible translations, new translations are often rendered a certain way because that is how the translators are used to reading/hearing it. The GOD'S WORD Translation seeks to avoid this, and should be commended for this effort. However, sometimes in its goal of “closest natural equivalence,” the GOD'S WORD Translation strays a little too far from the literal meaning of the text, interpreting rather than translating.

GOD'S WORD Translation - Sample verses
John 1:1, 14 – “In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.”

John 3:16 – “God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.”

John 8:58 – “Jesus told them, ‘I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am.’”

Ephesians 2:8-9 – “God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God. It’s not the result of anything you’ve done, so no one can brag about it.”

Titus 2:13 – “At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Recommended Resource: How to Choose a Translation for All Its Worth: A Guide to Understanding and Using Bible Versions by Gordon D. Fee & Mark L. Strauss

oldhermit · Aug 30, 2017

Willie-T said:

Like all paraphrases versions, the GW interprets the text rather than translating the text. It offers was amounts to an approximate rendering of the meaning of the text. This method is of course highly subjective and unreliable. Paraphrased versions are notorious for taking too many liberties with the text. The NIV is very close to falling into the category of a paraphrase.

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