Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,161
#34,161
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes. I understand you were saying I yelled at you.
And I truly believe that you think I was yelling at you.
But I was not yelling at you.
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Smh, you came at me saying I was making a statement based on something I Did not believe, and defending someone else based on that statement, which mans the root of you ur argument was flawed,

to some peopl, that is yelling, that som people that is a misunderstanding, to some people it is a way to open up dialogue and try to find out why the false understanding was there to begin with,

we we have been having this same argument for months now, so what would you call it.

The term misunderstanding stoppe fitting along time ago, you should not be still misunderstanding,

he term "open a diologue" do es not fit, because we have been here numerous tim s, and I have tied to open dialogue with you to try and explain (I even made a post earlier explaining what I see, and you have STILL yet to acknowledge it, funny how that one post and you understanding it could have made it so our whol conversations here never happens, because if you understood, you would not have discussed based on a false pretense.

what is left?

thank you.

now, do you understand where your false pretense of my belief was yet? Do you want to know, or continue to go thinking you know and case these continue misunderstanding based on a false understanding of where I am coming from?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,162
#34,162
Meggido said:
Bro,
God never promised that if you stopped believing in him and forsake him that he has an obligation to keep you....the Bible proves this...it has nothing to do with works and everything to do with continued belief....

Joshua 24.14-15

[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Now, therefore, fear the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”


This was a choice to live in belief or disbelief....
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I see bro,

but to me Gid never promised that he would stop doing what he started.

when I read God,'s promises I see this...

he said he will complete it, not that he might
he said h has perfected forever, not that at some point in the future if you continue use to believe, he may perfect you forever,
he said he will never let you go, not that he will never let you go only if you continue to hold on in faith.
he said he gave you eternal life, not that he might give you eternal life, and he called it eternal, not conditional for a reason, it is not some religious thing that can be gained and lost, it is an actual thing we hav (even john said we have it, and knowing this is the bases of our continue faith)

i can fo go on and on bro, my faith is in Goda promises, not in my ability to keep trusting him. That to me would b placing faith in myself and my ability, not God, and that to m, is no security at all,
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#34,164
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#34,164
eternally-gratefull said:
so you believe in eternal security? That once a person is savd by true repentance and true faith in th living God, who will NEVER let you down, but only promised see to continue to grace your faith, and promised to continue to sanctify you until the day of Christ, and give you absolutely no reason t stop having faith is saved forever, that nothing h or she does from hat point forward will change that fact?

Thank you, and know I am just stating my view, not attacking anyone, I am asking honest questions here.
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It's just that some men really do not believe that to be cut off means cut off from unspecified prizes but to be cut off as Israel was cut off, for unbelief. So when they read to be careful their hearts do not become evil and unbelieving, they don't think it's so they will get some unspecified rewards because they think to become evil and unbelieving is a serious matter.

But this makes them enter struggles to fully believe, through which God works to purify them of hypocrisies. But they don't fear, because they see God is bringing them TO these struggles and they see what great good later comes to their soul by them.

I always use one of my greatest struggles to fully believe and trust, which has been not storing treasure on earth. It must be harder, it seems to me, for a man who has treasure already stored when he comes to God. It's tricky, because you SAY you believe He will care for you but then you catch yourself worrying when you're down to your last twenty dollars and you need to go to the dentist. So you struggle to fully trust what He has said and to not worry as unbelievers do.

But you can't treat it as law either, and worry if you do come into some windfall, that you have nine hundred dollars in the bank and oh no, this is storing treasure on earth. Because it isn't outward law and isn't to be treated as such. It's about what your sneaky heart does. Does it feel relief and security because now it has a stockpile? Does it start to worry what will happen when it gets back down to twenty dollars? Or does it remain calm in peace that He knows what you need and so stops it's worry?

Our hearts are sneaky and we can be convinced that we are idolizing nothing but then someone dents our car door and we become upset it has been marred or even become furious. Or great grandmas plate is broken by a child and we get angry and make them cry. And then we see that we were thinking we idolized nothing but by our reaction, our heart was treasuring the thing. Cars and plates are useful things. They are not things to get upset over. A car will still perform its useful purpose with a ding in the door. And there are many plates in the world to use. These things are good for our use, not to become upset over.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#34,167
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#34,167
eternally-gratefull said:
Smh, you came at me saying I was making a statement based on something I Did not believe, and defending someone else based on that statement, which mans the root of you ur argument was flawed,

to some peopl, that is yelling, that som people that is a misunderstanding, to some people it is a way to open up dialogue and try to find out why the false understanding was there to begin with,

we we have been having this same argument for months now, so what would you call it.

The term misunderstanding stoppe fitting along time ago, you should not be still misunderstanding,

he term "open a diologue" do es not fit, because we have been here numerous tim s, and I have tied to open dialogue with you to try and explain (I even made a post earlier explaining what I see, and you have STILL yet to acknowledge it, funny how that one post and you understanding it could have made it so our whol conversations here never happens, because if you understood, you would not have discussed based on a false pretense.

what is left?

thank you.

now, do you understand where your false pretense of my belief was yet? Do you want to know, or continue to go thinking you know and case these continue misunderstanding based on a false understanding of where I am coming from?
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Well...I think you are misunderstanding PHart. To me, he is exhorting to keep in the faith, to keep believing more and more.
And you think that is telling people to work for their place in our Lord and with our Lord.
But to me, he is just saying, keep the faith, grow more and more in trust and to not bury the talent but grow and increase it.

And yes, I realize that it is HE that does the growing even while I am in a struggle of fully trusting in an area because it is He that brought me to that struggle against the world, my flesh and the devil.

I asked him, but since you believe your faith came to you as a gift, how do you propose that we are able to keep and grow it when the whole world, our own flesh and the devil want to take it from us? And I think he answered well. He said, #1 I don't WANT to go back to the world. I want to be with Him. And #2, He has given me a measure of faith to allow me to see that He is, and then He graciously grows it. I think he answered well.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#34,169
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#34,169
Have to go, it is going to rain on my furniture!
Love one another. Love covers a multitude of sins! :)
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#34,170
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
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#34,170
eternally-gratefull said:
A man man is saying one can lose salvation, thus he determines salvation to be a reward not a gift,
so yes, I just determine what I see
and you are still showing you do not understand my view, so please, stop yelling at me, when your doing the very thing your claiming I am doing,
eiher agree to disagree, show you understand what I am saying or are willing to try to understand, or please stop.
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The issue here is a question of priorities of ideas.
If you say one overcomes or removes the other you can hold what appear to be contradictatory
ideas and yet feel there is no problem.

Because we think one concept at a time it is our weakness.

Now the concepts here are
1. You come to faith and are sealed eternally in Christ.
2. Whatever state you are in after this event, it cannot undo it.

The other position is also simple
1. You establish a conditional relationship with God where you trust Him,
accept His forgiveness through the cross and walk in His ways.
2. You can break this relationship and come to distrust God and ignore His
ways and walk your own.

Each concept or framework have a different view on what it means to walk with
Jesus. One is a permanent experience, the other a growing and development into
the nature of Christ.

Now it is not unfair from the perspective of those who look at having faith as a living
thing, that it can be lost, and relies on life by our behaviour.

If one holds behaviour or loosing faith does not effect the "event" or its eternal consequences
it is fair in this frame of reference to conclude one believes this.

In the frame of reference of the "event", the event is faith, so it can never be lost.
But this appears to be neither the Christian view of faith or trust in Christ or the biblical view.

There would be no need to say faith can be trampled on, and lost and never regained unless
this was a problem among the believers as in Heb 10.

The gnostic view of faith and the event fits quite well this "event" theology.

Salvation is a gift of Christ, but it can be rejected. You could say by continuing in it you have
justified the gift, or as Paul would say, perfected it.

If you give your son a bicycle and they do not ride it ever, it was a waste of a gift.
If they ride it and end up wearing it out, it justifies the choice and value of the gift.

To suggest the gift is earnt by using it, is just an argument to discredit the reality,
all relationships can be broken.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,171
#34,171
Magenta said:
At what point is a person saved? God knew before time began.

Now, you may say, when they believe, but it can be a protracted
process for some, presenting no exact moment of surety of surrender,
just an assurance that it has finally happened, accompanied by an
immense hunger and thirst for the Truth of God's Eternal Word.
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yet God said when you believe, you will never hunger or thirst again,

and yes, since God already knew who would be saved in eternity past, and predestined them to be children of God, then our salvation was already set in stone before we believed,

what happened is just like prophesy, when we finally took that step of faith, prophesy came true, what God already KNEW would happened came to fruition.

If salvation can be lost or handed back, there would have been no predestination based on what God knew, and he would be very untrustworthy as a prophet,


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,172
#34,172
PHart said:
So remain a true believer so you won't get snatched out.

That's what I've been saying all along.

The Bible tells us to keep believing in order to stay in Christ.
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We wont get snatched out, God is stronger than me, he promised never to let Go, even if I had faith of a mustard seed, he would hold on,

but look how that mustard seed grows, just like it, my faith grows, it does. It fade away, God promised to finish it,
 
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garee

Banned
#34,173
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#34,173
PHart said:
Are you talking about sinning, or outright unbelief?

God does not allow a person to come back to repentance from unbelief. But the believer is always welcome to repent of his sin. It's when he crosses into contemptuous unbelief that he can't come back. God won't allow it.
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Hi PHart.

If God does not first turn them there is no coming back . We walk by faith the unseen not after some work we can do.

Anything that is not of the faith of Christ, the exclusive faith that comes from hearing God through the scriptures is sin. Called unbelief.(no faith).

We are saved by the faith of Christ the labor of the love of God that does work in us, to both will and perform His good purposes and kept by the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) . Galiatians 3:1 -4

PHart offered ...God does not allow a person to come back to repentance from unbelief.

God calls us to repent (a form of comfort )by and through the hearing of His faith that works in us to turn us so that we can comfort ourselves knowing all of our sin have been forgiven. Repentance is a work of God not of our own selves. If he does not first turn us according to His law of repentance no man can repent.

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, "I repented"; and after that "I was instructed", I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth. Jer 31:18

PHart offered...But the believer is always welcome to repent of his sin. It's when he crosses into contemptuous unbelief that he can't come back. God won't allow it.

Which god, the god of this world that works in the heart of natural unconverted man or our Savior Christ, seeing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to Him ?

Againthe believer cannot repent unless he does the first work turning them towards His voice from within. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ he simply does not know him.

When the believer denies Christ in unbelief, he will deny the believer as he sins and cause them to return repent .He cannot deny he has not paid the full wage of every sin he might commit throughout their lives of living in a body of sin (death)

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2Ti 2:12

We fear Him because with him there is forgiveness . If he would take into account one wrong suffered how could we stand before his throne of Grace and receive Mercy?

A good example of a believer denying Christ in respect to things of men and after denying Him because Christ cannot deny himself, Christ does not send the the strong delusion to believe the lie but calls him back to repentance turning Peter by His voice so that Peter then could repent, a form of comfort .

Peter is shown more than once of denying Christ in unbelief. And Christ informing men to pick up their crosses and continue to follow. Pick up your cross is a the call to turn from those ways of denying Christ.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an "offence unto me": for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:22

If Christ has begun the good work of salvation in a person he will finish it all the way to the end. The other alternative is the man in Mathew 7 who offered his good works as a way of repenting saying to him I never knew you shows us he was not called to repent.

No confidence in our sinful flesh


Philippians 1:6 Being "confident" of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Who are you putting your confidence in till the end?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,174
#34,174
PHart said:
The power of God that keeps us until the Day of Salvation is secured through faith (1 Peter 1:5). You do not have the power of God for the Day of Salvation if you do not have faith. He keeps us when we keep believing. Our believing obligates him to keep us. But without faith he has no obligation to keep us.
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faith only fails if it was never faith at all

mental agreement with the word of God has never saved anyone,

God is the author and finisher of our faith, not us,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,175
#34,175
Stunnedbygrace said:
Don't you think though that all of those conditions all boil down to the one - abide/trust/continue in trust?
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There re are no conditions in grace, there are only conditions in works

the law had conditions, live a perfect life without sin, or suffer the curse (death)

grace removes that curce curse because the lamb of God suffered that curse in our place,

sanctification has conditions, if we want to grow in Christ and replace the reward temporally and spiritually that comes with it, we must abide, failure to abide brings chastening and loss of blessing and rewards,

salvation is not a reward that can be purchased by fulfilling certain conditions, it was paid in fill by the cross.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,176
#34,176
PHart said:
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. There is weak believing, and there is strong believing.



Maybe it does, maybe it does not.



I read in the Bible where the seed is not retained by the soil in some cases. It was in the soil, and even started growing, but was not retained by the soil.
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Jesus said if we have faith as small as a mustard seed we can mov mountains
jesus healed th child of a man who said he had faith, but help him in his unbelief.

god s faithful to our faith, no matter how small it is, that is why faith grows, it does not get smaller

if your small faith moved a mountain, where is your faith going? Up or down?

if your smal faith caused god to answer a prayer in a great way, where is your faith going? Up or down?

if your small faith caused God to give you eternal life, the HS, the adoption as sins, the start of a relationship where you are changed and you now see and know God, does your faith go up or down?

Again, if you think you can lose faith, I must wonder if you had any true living faith at all, just saying. God does not let you s down, he BUILDS our faith, to give us reason to lose faith,

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,177
#34,177
Stunnedbygrace said:
Some accept the word with joy but then the cares of this life choke out the seed. And so they reject trust to listen to the world instead and store money on earth because it makes them feel secure and not scared. They reject believing He will see to their care as He has promised and instead go with what the world says our security lies in.
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They had mental agreement,, not faith. They accept the word as truth, it never said they took it deep inside them in faith

if the had faith, they would have entered rest, and the things of this world would not hav destroys their faith. It may have hurt it some, but never destroy it,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#34,178
#34,178
oldethennew said:
as PH has said, without that Holy Hope, we are 'lost', there's nothing even close
to signing- off, or resigning,,,Praise God...
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god gives us that hope, and he will never let us down, the only way we lose hope is we never had it to begin with,

either we consider god trustworthy and trust him, or we think he is trustworthy. And believe it, but it neve takes root, so it is lost.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#34,179
Nov 22, 2015
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#34,179
We really need to know what happened to us when we received Christ and believed in Him after hearing the gospel message of Christ.

Christians now are a new creation in Him. Christians do not have an evil heart. The flesh is still there but Christians are not in the flesh but "in the spirit".

Without this understanding we will be forever trying to clean up the flesh and it cannot be done. The flesh with the law of sin in it will be with us until we leave these bodies. We are to walk by the spirit and then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

It's the renewing of the mind to the realities that are real now for us in Christ that needs to be done.

Christians have a new heart created in righteousness and holiness.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#34,180
Jul 3, 2015
59,682
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#34,180
TMS said:
If we have put on Christ's righteousness, Jesus would not need to stand between us and God because we would be Perfectly righteous.
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To put on the righteousness of Christ is the language of Scripture. We are covered by the blood of His perfect sacrifice which reconciles us to God, and Jesus is our advocate. He is also God.
 
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