Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

Nehemiah6 · Sep 4, 2017

When the apostle John was writing to his spiritual children, he also knew what Christ had already done for him and for them in His death burial and resurrection. They were already children of God. But he also made it clearly that children of God were not sinlessly perfect and sin in the believer's life blocks fellowship with God.

The "flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) is not automatically eradicated when we are born again (even though that is what we all would love to see). There is a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and therefore we are to mortify the flesh and to walk in the Spirit. But saints can and will sin (knowingly or unknowingly) and therefore they MUST deal with sin properly to maintain fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Indeed we are commanded to "dis-fellowship" other believers who persist in their sins.

So the issue is not sonship but fellowship. That is why John warns Christians not not deceive themselves, or to make God a liar by claiming that they have no sin to deal with. While you have admitted that you can sin, you have also said "I have not asked for forgiveness "in order to be forgiven or to supposedly restore fellowship" for quite some time", which means you have not really believed the first epistle of John.Then there are those who fool themselves by claiming that that epistle was not really written to believers!

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

This statement made me think of our Lord Jesus Christ when He went to be tempted (Matthew 4).

The first thing the devil did was tempt Jesus because of His hunger. He had fasted 40 days and was hungry (Matt 4:2).

First thing If thou be the Son of God (Matt 4:3).

Did we not just read in Matt 3:17 that a voice from heaven stated "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"?

The first thing the devil did was question what God had just declared as true.

Second thing command that these stones be made bread.

In other words, do not rely on Father to provide for You ... You provide for Yourself.

Slick, slick, slick ...

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

When the apostle John was writing to his spiritual children, he also knew what Christ had already done for him and for them in His death burial and resurrection. They were already children of God. But he also made it clearly that children of God were not sinlessly perfect and sin in the believer's life blocks fellowship with God.

The "flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) is not automatically eradicated when we are born again (even though that is what we all would love to see). There is a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and therefore we are to mortify the flesh and to walk in the Spirit. But saints can and will sin (knowingly or unknowingly) and therefore they MUST deal with sin properly to maintain fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Indeed we are commanded to "dis-fellowship" other believers who persist in their sins.

So the issue is not sonship but fellowship. That is why John warns Christians not not deceive themselves, or to make God a liar by claiming that they have no sin to deal with. While you have admitted that you can sin, you have also said "I have not asked for forgiveness "in order to be forgiven or to supposedly restore fellowship" for quite some time", which means you have not really believed the first epistle of John.Then there are those who fool themselves by claiming that that epistle was not really written to believers!

See post #120....

..

IMO - the proper way to deal with sin in the New Covenant is to believe what Christ has done and not in the Old Covenant way.

The communion "speaks" of the work of Christ. Do this "in remembrance of Me".

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Personally I am vehemently against all forms of sinning as they all bring destruction of some sort to us while on this earth - especially the one of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.

I don't see any difference in sinning by living a homosexual lifestyle to having malice, bitterness, having outbursts of anger, being deceitful, being jealous and envious and the slandering of others in the body of Christ. All of these, as well as all the works of the flesh bring about death to us in this life. They are contrary to the life off Christ in us now.

Here is my view on sin and it's affects on us and on how the Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of our Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is and that our fellowship with Him is broken. That's a common myth.

( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them. Their perspective of Him was changed but He was the same towards them and kept interacting with them. )

Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it also distorts our view of others as well as ourselves. Sin is deceitful.

We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God or that he is withholding fellowship from us.

Hebrews said to come boldly to the throne of grace - why? How? - because Jesus Himself is our true righteousness. 1 Cor. 1:30 & 2 Cor. 5:21

This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.

It reveals the true heart of our loving Father and Lord to show others in this hurt and dying world their love and grace towards them.

Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!

Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form - such as the false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh".

This "lose your salvation" false doctrine which discourages believers and brings fear and hopelessness to them as they struggle in the flesh with some things.

This causes them to have their faith ship-wrecked because they feel condemned and don't know how to walk by the spirit yet nor are they taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ properly in order to grow up in Him.

Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.

The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror. We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.

He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.

As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.

Desertsrose · Sep 4, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

Great post Nehemiah,

And the problem is also that these same people who reject 1 John, also reject the Lord's prayer where He gives us an example of how to pray...."forgive us our sins as we forgiven those who sin against us."

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Here is an excellent article that speaks about 1 John 1:9. I like to use this site sometimes as it looks at things through the finished work of Christ. It also has a place at the bottom where people like all of us can ask questions. I often learn from others there as well as the article itself.

Quote:

Is 1 John 1 for Believers or Unbelievers?

Why do you assume that the first chapter of first John is addressed to unbelievers?”
This question was put to me by a friend after reading my recent post on 1 John 1:9.

Judging by some of the comments that have come up in various discussion threads, it’s a question many of you are asking:

– How can you say that an epistle clearly written for churches was meant for sinners?

– Aren’t you treading on thin ice when you carve up the Bible saying, “That bit’s not for me”?

– Aren’t we supposed to heed the whole counsel of God?

These are all excellent questions and I will try to shed some light by looking at 1 John 1. But let me state up front that I do not assume 1 John 1 was written for unbelievers – assumptions of that sort are dangerous. Rather I conclude that it was based on the evidence I will present below.

But first, let me challenge two traditional arguments used to suggest that 1 John 1, and particularly verse 9, is meant for Christians.

1. The New Testament church letters are for saints not sinners

Really? You don’t think they were meant for churches? Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian and in the New Testament churches there were plenty of people who were not saved. I’m thinking of the “false brothers who infiltrated our ranks” (Gal 2:4) and the false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets who seemed to follow Peter and Paul everywhere they went.

We have this rose-tinted view of the early church as a place of harmony and accord. In reality those churches were fractious battlegrounds between Christians, Pharisees, Judaizers, and outright crooks. Read the middle chapter of Peter’s second letter and you will find repeated warnings pertaining to false teachers who deny the sovereign Lord, who live in error and are slaves of depravity. Where are these heretics? They are not out in the world; they are in here “among the people” (2 Pet 2:1).

How about the antichrist? I bet you can’t guess where he lives. Well for starters, there’s more than one antichrist since anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ is an antichrist (1 Joh 2:22). You may be surprised to learn that these antichrists aren’t found in Rome or Washington DC but are among the church. “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us” (1 Joh 2:18-19).

The wonderful thing about church groups is that they are open. Everyone is welcome. But not everyone who comes loves Jesus. Every preacher knows this and tailors their message accordingly. They’ll have something for the saint and something for the sinner. The epistle writers are no different.

2. “John says ‘we’ a lot. That doesn’t sound like he’s talking about them but us.”

Indeed, John says “we” 20 times in chapter 1! But is he referring to “We-believers” or “We-people” or “We-his-royal-self”? I think it is a huge mistake to assume that “we” always refers to a particular set of people in every single instance. We need to consider the context. This is how I read it:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Verse[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]We-himself[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]We-people[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD]That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD]The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD]We write this to make your joy complete.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD]This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It seems clear to me that for the first part of the chapter John is doing a fair impersonation of Prince Charles by referring to himself in the majestic plural. Don’t laugh: this habit actually originated with the kings and princes of the Old Testament. (See 2 Samuel 16:20 for an example.) But halfway through John switches to Thomas Jefferson adopting a “we-the-people” voice. This begs the question, Who are the people? Who is John referring to?

Why do I think 1 John 1 is addressed to unbelievers?

To answer this question we need to look at the “you” that John singles out in verse 3. Who are “the you”? What are they like? Well in the following verses John gives us a very comprehensive description. Let us consider how this group – whoever they are – compares with the typical Christian.

See if you can spot the difference…

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Verse[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]John’s audience (the “You”)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Christians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]They do not have fellowship (koinonia) with us as we have with God; they alienated from the life of God (Eph 4:18)[/TD]
[TD]We have fellowship (koinonia) with Christ and all the members of His body (1 Cor 1:9, 1 Jn 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD]They need to hear the message that John has heard[/TD]
[TD]We have heard and believed the message (Rom 10:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They walk in darkness[/TD]
[TD]We walk in the light (Joh 8:12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They lie and do not live by the truth[/TD]
[TD]We have met the Truth and walk in the truth (Joh 14:6, 2 Jn 1:4)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all sin[/TD]
[TD]We have been purified from all sin (Heb 10:10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD]They are deceived[/TD]
[TD]We are filled with the Spirit of Truth (Jn 14:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all unrighteousness[/TD]
[TD]We have received the gift of forgiveness and have been made righteous (1 Cor 6:11, Eph 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]They are calling God a liar[/TD]
[TD]We agree with God (Rom 10:9-13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]God’s word has no place in their lives[/TD]
[TD]His word lives in us (1 Th 2:13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

As you can see, the group on the left is nothing like the group on the right. Indeed, the people in this group are the exact opposite of what the Bible describes as a Christian. Hmm. I guess that means that they – those John is addressing in chapter 1 – are not Christians. They are not the “dear children” John begins to address in chapter 2.
Was that so hard?

Here’s the punch-line: If you think the whole Bible was written for you, you’re going to end up confused, messed up, and in serious trouble.

We need to have a whole Bible theology but that does not mean “read everything indiscriminately and hope for the best.” That would be like going to the drug cabinet in the local hospital and swallowing every pill in sight. A whole Bible theology means you read the written word through the lens of the Living Word. It means filter everything you read through the finished work of the cross.

If, after reading this post, you still think 1 John 1:9 is addressed to believers, that’s fine. You could be right. The real question here is not Who? but What? This is why I say it is essential, when reading this scripture, that we ask the right question!

Unquote:

Here is the website if anyone is interested in the questions asked.

https://escapetoreality.org/2012/06/14/is-1-john-1-for-believers/

reneweddaybyday · Sep 4, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I agree with most of what you have said - except for the 1 John 1:9 thing.

Click to expand...

In your earlier post, you said:

Grace777x70 said:

I understand what you are saying.

If/when you stumble, you run to God and tell Him that Jesus Christ is your Lord and He is your life and righteousness - that His blood has secured your redemption and forgiveness of sins.

If/when I stumble, I go to Father, I tell Him I agree with Him that I have stumbled, I missed the mark. And Father tells me and assures me that He is faithful, He is just, He forgives, He cleanses.

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Desertsrose said:

That is not true. In reality what some people are saying is that in the New Covenant people don't need to forgive "in order to be forgiven" as in the Old Covenant way.

But when we are expressing Christ - the new creation in Him - then we will by default as we walk by the spirit forgive because we are one with the ultimate "Forgiver". It will be His life manifesting in and through us to others.

Trying to fit what Peter and Paul said in Acts 10 and 13 - in their word-for-word accounts of preaching the true gospel of the grace of Christ can "conflict" with some of our religious beliefs.

The truth is that they did not say. "you must forgive others before you can receive Christ's forgiveness - obtained by God's riches in grace which He purchased with His own blood for an eternal redemption and the complete forgiveness of sins"

There is no "conditional" forgiveness which is contingent on us forgiving first in the New Covenant which started after the Cross and Jesus fulfilled the law for us.

It's anti-the gospel. It is however 100% the law that we must forgive first in order to receive forgiveness in the law.

We forgive now because we are already forgiven in Christ. This is our new nature in Him in our inner man in Christ being expressed out to others.

Paul says in Eph. 4:22 to put on the new man in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness...then he shows us what this looks like in the next verses including this one below.

Ephesians 4:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Exactly - we agree with Him in all things - confess. - to say the same thing.

We confess/agree with Him that Christ is our righteousness and we confess/agree that a certain behavior is not living from Him nor is it His nature that is in us - the new creation. We are walking by the flesh in those instances.

This cleansing and being righteous in Christ is the reality that is true even if we are not walking by the truth of it. He will be faithful to us to "child-train" us to grow up "to be" in our outward behavior who we truly are already in our new creation in Christ.

Without Him we can do nothing!

miknik5 · Sep 4, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I see both sides of the coin and have not decided fully which way I stand to be honest......I can see that ALL my sin has been covered and paid for in Christ while recognizing that particular events recorded like peter denying the Lord 3 times resulted with him weeping when he went out and with no record of his verbal repentance for denying the Lord....and yet he said I am a sinful man and bailed off into the sea....I see Paul write of being the chief sinner among men, but do not recall him repenting of any particular sin even when meeting the Lord on the road to Damascus. And then I think of the other recorded events such as Daniel confessing his sins in prayer or John saying he is faithful and just to forgive us when we confess our sins when we sin.......there seems to be balance that that alludes the extreme stance concerning both sides of this coin.....

But what is the iron or anchor that ties the two stances together but our love of and our hope in THE LORD

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Joseph888 said:

this is written to believers:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:9

I would state that saying otherwise would put one in the over-extended grace category which is not biblical

it is categorically FALSE to state you are spiritually baptized for the forgiveness of sin and I have no reference for that

kindly supply a reference from scripture...not a hyper grace site, that expresses that thought for the satisfaction of those of us who are somehow reminded by scritpure that we do indeed still sin

and what about confessing our sins one to another?

just how much of the Bible are you false gracers going to omit to go on your jolly way with this new religion you profess?

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

do you some of you posters from the 'not by works' thread realize AND understand this is part of the argument (I would like to say discussion but let's be real) that is ongoing in the minds of hyper gracers with whom you agree so handily in the aforementioned thread?

this is part of the problem for lack of a determined end to the ongoing endless ping pong match of personalities and character traits, because, IMO, that thread is more about that, than any sort of truth from scripture

if someone thinks they have all sin forgiven, if someone believes they do not need to confess their sins, if someone thinks John is an old man with first stage Alzheimer's, that is what is directing their posting in that thread as well

I think of things like that and it would serve some well to do the same because it is not biblical to think sin has been dealt with and off you go then...play in the sandbox

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Joseph888 said:

please do not read Revelation

it will spoil your day

dcontroversal · Sep 4, 2017

7seasrekeyed said:

do you some of you posters from the 'not by works' thread realize AND understand this is part of the argument (I would like to say discussion but let's be real) that is ongoing in the minds of hyper gracers with whom you agree so handily in the aforementioned thread?

this is part of the problem for lack of a determined end to the ongoing endless ping pong match of personalities and character traits, because, IMO, that thread is more about that, than any sort of truth from scripture

if someone thinks they have all sin forgiven, if someone believes they do not need to confess their sins, if someone thinks John is an old man with first stage Alzheimer's, that is what is directing their posting in that thread as well

I think of things like that and it would serve some well to do the same because it is not biblical to think sin has been dealt with and off you go then...play in the sandbox

That is primarily your problem....either Jesus paid for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD or he did not.....SIN is not the issue....FAITH is the issue......wake up!

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Joseph888 said:

this like putting two negatives in the same sentence.

I can't even

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

........................................THIS^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^THIS

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Joseph888 said:

biblical understanding is akin to elevator that only goes halfway up

or better yet, a door 50 stories up with a big 'watch the first step' sign just to the right

God does not chasten those in sin

the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin...remember saying that? not believers is what you said. right?

I have no right to chastise the neighbors children; but I do have the right to chastise my own

God does not chastise the devil's children. they are already condemned. He chastens His own children

see, this false grace gospel is so full of holes for people to crawl in and out of, that they meet themselves going back in as they are coming out

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

joaniemarie said:

I understand you are sincere

but you are leading others astray

that is hyper serious

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Desertsrose said:

I am quite troubled by some of the posts I have seen telling us that we do not apply all the words of Jesus as He is part of the Old Covenant

talk about a lack of understanding!

sometimes I truly wonder how God holds back

I have seen numerous posts suggesting the above and they are from spurious teaching sites

if you point that out, you are called a slanderer or told you are full of malice

with love of course

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.

The forgiveness of sins is the gospel message in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

See Acts 10 for Peter giving the word for word account of the gospel message.

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

See Acts 13 for Paul preaching the exact same message.

Acts 13:38 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught. I understand that part.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

have been forgiven = perfect passive

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...

and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.

Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins

Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.

Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!

Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.

Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

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