Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

Meggido · Sep 4, 2017

Many believe grace alleviates the need for relational forgiveness...Yet, Jesus talked about relational forgiveness and if we did not engage in it then the Father would not forgive us...

relational forgiveness is forgiveness we make when we miss it...Father, forgive me...I missed it when I envied in my heart....

It is also the forgiveness we give each other, As Christ commanded.

Narrow is the way....

MarcR · Sep 4, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Here is an excellent article that speaks about 1 John 1:9. I like to use this site sometimes as it looks at things through the finished work of Christ. It also has a place at the bottom where people like all of us can ask questions. I often learn from others there as well as the article itself.

Quote:

Is 1 John 1 for Believers or Unbelievers?

Why do you assume that the first chapter of first John is addressed to unbelievers?”
This question was put to me by a friend after reading my recent post on 1 John 1:9.

Judging by some of the comments that have come up in various discussion threads, it’s a question many of you are asking:

– How can you say that an epistle clearly written for churches was meant for sinners?

– Aren’t you treading on thin ice when you carve up the Bible saying, “That bit’s not for me”?

– Aren’t we supposed to heed the whole counsel of God?

These are all excellent questions and I will try to shed some light by looking at 1 John 1. But let me state up front that I do not assume 1 John 1 was written for unbelievers – assumptions of that sort are dangerous. Rather I conclude that it was based on the evidence I will present below.

But first, let me challenge two traditional arguments used to suggest that 1 John 1, and particularly verse 9, is meant for Christians.

1. The New Testament church letters are for saints not sinners

Really? You don’t think they were meant for churches? Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian and in the New Testament churches there were plenty of people who were not saved. I’m thinking of the “false brothers who infiltrated our ranks” (Gal 2:4) and the false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets who seemed to follow Peter and Paul everywhere they went.

We have this rose-tinted view of the early church as a place of harmony and accord. In reality those churches were fractious battlegrounds between Christians, Pharisees, Judaizers, and outright crooks. Read the middle chapter of Peter’s second letter and you will find repeated warnings pertaining to false teachers who deny the sovereign Lord, who live in error and are slaves of depravity. Where are these heretics? They are not out in the world; they are in here “among the people” (2 Pet 2:1).

How about the antichrist? I bet you can’t guess where he lives. Well for starters, there’s more than one antichrist since anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ is an antichrist (1 Joh 2:22). You may be surprised to learn that these antichrists aren’t found in Rome or Washington DC but are among the church. “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us” (1 Joh 2:18-19).

The wonderful thing about church groups is that they are open. Everyone is welcome. But not everyone who comes loves Jesus. Every preacher knows this and tailors their message accordingly. They’ll have something for the saint and something for the sinner. The epistle writers are no different.

2. “John says ‘we’ a lot. That doesn’t sound like he’s talking about them but us.”

Indeed, John says “we” 20 times in chapter 1! But is he referring to “We-believers” or “We-people” or “We-his-royal-self”? I think it is a huge mistake to assume that “we” always refers to a particular set of people in every single instance. We need to consider the context. This is how I read it:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Verse[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]We-himself[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]We-people[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD]That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD]The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD]We write this to make your joy complete.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD]This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It seems clear to me that for the first part of the chapter John is doing a fair impersonation of Prince Charles by referring to himself in the majestic plural. Don’t laugh: this habit actually originated with the kings and princes of the Old Testament. (See 2 Samuel 16:20 for an example.) But halfway through John switches to Thomas Jefferson adopting a “we-the-people” voice. This begs the question, Who are the people? Who is John referring to?

Why do I think 1 John 1 is addressed to unbelievers?

To answer this question we need to look at the “you” that John singles out in verse 3. Who are “the you”? What are they like? Well in the following verses John gives us a very comprehensive description. Let us consider how this group – whoever they are – compares with the typical Christian.

See if you can spot the difference…

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Verse[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]John’s audience (the “You”)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Christians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD]They do not have fellowship (koinonia) with us as we have with God; they alienated from the life of God (Eph 4:18)[/TD]
[TD]We have fellowship (koinonia) with Christ and all the members of His body (1 Cor 1:9, 1 Jn 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD]They need to hear the message that John has heard[/TD]
[TD]We have heard and believed the message (Rom 10:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They walk in darkness[/TD]
[TD]We walk in the light (Joh 8:12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD]They lie and do not live by the truth[/TD]
[TD]We have met the Truth and walk in the truth (Joh 14:6, 2 Jn 1:4)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all sin[/TD]
[TD]We have been purified from all sin (Heb 10:10)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD]They are deceived[/TD]
[TD]We are filled with the Spirit of Truth (Jn 14:17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD]They need to be purified from all unrighteousness[/TD]
[TD]We have received the gift of forgiveness and have been made righteous (1 Cor 6:11, Eph 1:7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]They are calling God a liar[/TD]
[TD]We agree with God (Rom 10:9-13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD]God’s word has no place in their lives[/TD]
[TD]His word lives in us (1 Th 2:13)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

As you can see, the group on the left is nothing like the group on the right. Indeed, the people in this group are the exact opposite of what the Bible describes as a Christian. Hmm. I guess that means that they – those John is addressing in chapter 1 – are not Christians. They are not the “dear children” John begins to address in chapter 2.
Was that so hard?

Here’s the punch-line: If you think the whole Bible was written for you, you’re going to end up confused, messed up, and in serious trouble.

We need to have a whole Bible theology but that does not mean “read everything indiscriminately and hope for the best.” That would be like going to the drug cabinet in the local hospital and swallowing every pill in sight. A whole Bible theology means you read the written word through the lens of the Living Word. It means filter everything you read through the finished work of the cross.

If, after reading this post, you still think 1 John 1:9 is addressed to believers, that’s fine. You could be right. The real question here is not Who? but What? This is why I say it is essential, when reading this scripture, that we ask the right question!

Unquote:

Here is the website if anyone is interested in the questions asked.

https://escapetoreality.org/2012/06/14/is-1-john-1-for-believers/

1 Jn 1:6-7
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
KJV
It sounds to me like John is addressing new or immature believers who still need discipling.

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

How many of us follow Jesus' words when He told others to go show yourself to the priest when we are healed?

How many of us tell people that if they want to inherit eternal life is to keep the 10 commandments like Jesus told the rich young ruler? Jesus said to him to "keep the commandments" to expose the fact that he had broken the very first commandment and he had money as his "God".

He thought he had actually kept all the commandments from his youth up. But Jesus exposed the truth that he hadn't kept them at all.

The ruler has asked Him " What must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Do we do today in the New Covenant as Jesus said to the young ruler when asked "What must I do to be saved?"

No, of course not ( well I hope not anyway ). What do we say to them now that we are in the New Covenant?

Acts 16:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and after he brought them out, he said,"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

[SUP]31 [/SUP] They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Meggido said:

grace cost Jesus His life

it ain't cheap

hyper grace cheapens what is precious

as I have stated, I have said there is only one kind of grace...biblical

this false grace, is not biblical. it is heresy IMO

disclaimer: I am not calling people heretics, however if you are hyper grace, you are believing a heretical teaching

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

escape to reality is a hyper grace site

so

duh

Meggido · Sep 4, 2017

7seasrekeyed said:

I thought it was against the TOS to post any thing like this and the Joseph Prince devotionals?

dcontroversal · Sep 4, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Amen...my "relational position and forgiveness" have forever been settled in Jesus....I am born again of INCORRUPTABLE SEED.....A SON forever.....what amazes me, is how many that name JESUS by their very words and dogma make that which is INCORRUPTABLE into CORRUPTABLE.......now fellowship on the other hand is based upon being in the light as he is in the light......verbiage means everything

dcontroversal · Sep 4, 2017

7seasrekeyed said:

Actually, it was the will of the FATHER and obedience to said will that cost JESUS his life......IF it be possible let this cup pass form me.....not what I will, but what thou will.

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

MarcR said:

On the surface it does seem that way but all believers are in the light. They are not darkness. Fellowship is based on Christ being in us.

The "we" is an editorial "we". For example I could say - 'We must believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness that is in Christ."

Or..."we must be born-again in order to have fellowship with God."

Both statements are true but it doesn't mean that I have not done it. It is using a statement of "inclusivity" - something that "we" all must do.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Meggido said:

I haven't, but I know quite a few report any and all posts that refer to hyper grace

I'm not in the pilot's seat here (I fly with the Flintstone raptor glider) so I guess we can refute this site and others of like kind if they can post a link to it

shrugs and breathes in coffee vapors

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

right

which is why we are admonished to walk in the light

you seem to think it is automatic

walk in the light as He is in the light. nothing about piggyback there

part and parcel of the hyper crowd, not to mention NAR teachings such as Johnson's church in Redding

you know, it would be so nice of you to just dialogue with the rest of the good folks here without your constant links to sites such as the one belonging to Ellis

do you actually have anything to say other than parroting this man 90% of the time?

rhetorical question

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

MarcR said:

Believers are in the light 24/7. Walking means a sphere of where one lives and moves about....where they tread with their feet as they go about life. In the light is a "position" that we are in because we are in Christ.

Believers are definitely in the light. The scriptures are clear on this. We do not go in and out of being in the light to being in darkness because one sins. We are giving in to the flesh to fulfill "its" desires when one sins. Romans 6:13

The same as we don't go from being a sheep when we sin to being a goat...and then when we don't do that particular sin again ( for however long that would be? ) - we go back to being a sheep again.

Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light ( we should be walking out who we are in the light..but it's through Him we do that. He bears His fruit on us - the branches )

Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Meggido said:

No, that is just a common lie that some have tried unsuccessfully to promote. It's just the nature of the beast...

..

Meggido · Sep 4, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

The sticky in the forum by oncefallen and CS1 seem to disagree with you....

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Knowing that in Christ because of His work on the cross and resurrection - we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins - how do we now live?

We are saved by the life of the Lord Jesus Christ which is in us in our new creation. We are now learning how to walk by the spirit - which is our spirit in union with Christ by the Holy Spirit ( whom Jesus said would be in us forever - John 14:16 ).

Romans 5:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards God Himself, others and ourselves.

I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.

Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.

This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us. Rom. 12:2

We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".

The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.

This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13

As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Good morning ,

it has been a long - suffering and very patient with many in here pertaining to the topic of "hyper-grace" and those who seem to bring this topic up in every post no matter what the thread maybe . Moderators have addressed the issues with some in Bible discussion forum pertaining to this Subject " hyper-grace". We have received more submissions of infractions due to this topic. And the same names keep coming up. Moderators have asked what is hyper grace and where do you stand on the subject? those who were asked have provided their understanding. Now it is not that CC agree with nor against this doctrine as many hold to calvinist and the positions and have scriptural ref to support their understanding. BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:

1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin

I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue . And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it. remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough. I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.

God bless,

very respectfully,

CS1

Grace777x70 · Sep 4, 2017

Meggido said:

No, not really.

Here is what was said below and the "term - hyper-grace" was not to be used because of the behavior of people and because some members were starting threads attacking ministers.

Quote:

BUT maturity and not attacking those is what is needed. here is what we get when the "hyper grace" topic is brought up:

1. your not saved
2. attacks
3. false teacher
4. infraction submitted
5. request for account to be closed
6. name calling
7. "hyper grace" brought into every post when not even the topic of origin

I have given you 7 reasons why this topic is not good for CC Thread and I have yet to find one reason for it.
Admin and the moderators will no longer allow this to continue .

And appropriate action will be taken if a member or guest starts a topic on "hyper grace " or Preachers who teach it.

remember those who attack each other many of them call themselves christians yet we eat and devour each other. enough is enough. I am not going to dress you personally at this time... You have an opportunity to let it go or CC Admin and Moderators will take action.

God bless,

very respectfully,

CS1

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/143507-hyper-grace-preachers-doctrine-cc.html

And yet - despite the requests of the Mods - many people still are bringing up the term "hyper-grace" in threads such as has happened in this one.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

Ellis is a hyper grace teacher in the truest sense of the ongoing arguements that CS1 mentions in the post above which can be found at the top of the BDF as a sticky post

this is not hearsay nor is it a common lie grace7

FlSnookman7 · Sep 4, 2017

7seasrekeyed said:

Walking in the light of the Truth means to believe in what Jesus did for us on the cross. The reason it is so difficult is that it requires us to set down our pride and ego and rely completely on Jesus to save us and keep us saved. Another problem a lot of us seem to have is not properly dividing the Word. Yes, the entire bible points to Jesus but some of it shows us how to live, some how to evangelize, some how to be saved etc. To say we must do this to say saved seems on the surface to be a very humble statement but in fact it is the height of arrogance. When we say that what we really mean is that we don't believe Jesus did enough on the cross and we must somehow add to His completed work.

God says we are righteous, holy, forgiven and redeemed right now. We can either believe we are who God says we are or we can believe what we see and feel. Remember, faith is believing in what we can not see. Again, when God says something about us and we say something else one of us is mistaken. Hint....it isn't God!

Coming to believe we are who God says we are is indeed a process. It is both difficult and time consuming but the rewards of believing who we really are and the power that comes from walking in the light of that truth are amazing.

As to you attacking a fellow Christian, well that is the fruit you currently show. Once again, walking in the light of the truth will allow us to go from bearing toxic fruit that attacks to the fruits of the Spirit. Once we learn that it isn't us doing the saving we are free to love God and others, that in turn brings a peace beyond all understanding and an unquenchable joy that I do not have the words to explain.

Pray and read the Word and God will show you the Truth. Shalom.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 4, 2017

we do believe in what Christ accomplished on the cross

that is not the walk though

the walk is to what in the light as He is in the light

what is the light?

is it the cross? don't think so

will post some scriptures for this

thanks

Does the Holy Spirit convict the born again believer of sin?

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

7seasrekeyed

Guest

7seasrekeyed

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

7seasrekeyed

Guest

7seasrekeyed

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

7seasrekeyed

Guest

Banned

7seasrekeyed

Guest

Senior Member

7seasrekeyed

Guest