Jesus’ church treated differently than God’s Israel

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

Both Evangelical Christendom, and Catholicism preach that the covenant which God made with Israel is gone, indicating that God conceived a different plan after that first covenant failed. In other words, God didn’t do it right the first time, making the old testament only history, but non-effectual for the new testament church.

Why would an unchanging God, and Christ (Messiah) differentiate His policies, one failed policy for one group of the past, and an effective policy for another group of people in the present? This sends a message that God realized He didn’t do it right the first time so He had to make up a different plan.

If that is true Gospel, how do we reconcile that God is not a respecter of persons?

MarcR · Sep 6, 2017

unobtrusive said:

Some so called Evangelical Christians may hold that teaching; but it is certainly not a universal or even a prevalent teaching.

If you read Jeremiah 31 carefully you will see that the Jer 31:34 covenant is made with Israel. It applies to the Church, as we are told in Heb chapter 8; only by the adoption of Rom chapter 8.

What changed is that God has taken upon Himself to do several things that facilitate obedience.

The Jeremiah 31 covenant does NOT abrogate or withdraw any promises God made in prior covenants.

Johnny_B · Sep 6, 2017

The Reformers thought that God was done with Israel, they could not see anything good in the land and figured that the Lord was done with them. If He was He has no reason to bring them back to the land what He has planned for them is is the Scriptures. I know many here believe that the Church has taken over all that was promisd to Israel. But Roman 11 leaves lots of unanswered questions.

Bogadile · Sep 6, 2017

Acts 3:22-23 "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."

John146 · Sep 6, 2017

unobtrusive said:

God's plan for Israel has not changed, but put on hold because of their unbelief.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Because of their unbelief, God turned to the Gentile world. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, God will turn His attention back to the nation of Israel to carry out His promised to them.

loveme1 · Sep 6, 2017

unobtrusive said:

It is funny you share this because I just watched someone say that The current Pope said GOD failed at the cross... such nonsense could only come from someone who is against the GOD of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob.. not for... we see victory over the enemy.. yet we are not quite at the Harvest.. but close to.. and the devices and deception seem godly.. but not to those who receive and believe GOD's Truth. Apparently anyone who receives a gift should make themselves known to the Catholic Church... it is like being invited to tea with a hungry tiger.

GOD is working through time which is our mortal state here on earth to bring us into Everlasting life .. no failure each step was always leading us to this... Alpha and Omega indeed.

So while the Tree of life was to be guarded.. but for those born again of the incorruptible seed it will be accessible through the Lord to those He deems worthy.

GOD's plan is the same it evolves and it is Victorious.

OneFaith · Sep 6, 2017

unobtrusive said:

God didn't change. God's plan is to show us the physical first, then the spiritual. God did things physically in the Old Testament that He now does spiritually in the New Testament. Jesus tied this in by teaching parables- comparing physical things to spiritual things in order to better our understanding. God didn't mess up, it was His plan all along. The Bible even says that those things were just a shadow, but that the real way (spiritual way) is found in Christ. He did it to show us that the physical way does not work.

God is not a respecter of persons, and He shows no favoritism. God, forknowing each soul, put the righteous into Israelite bodies, and the unrighteous into the bodies of those He would destroy in war through the Israelites, in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament (John chapter one) He switched to "whosoever will." Because He came to His own people, but His own people did not receive Him, so they lost their birthright. Israelites now have to be baptized into Christ just like everyone else.

Yes, the old way is nailed to the cross Colossians 2:14, we are no longer under Moses but under Christ Romans 7:1-4.

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

MarcR said:

Would you say that all of His dispensations were planned before the creation of the world, and that makes them all relevant for us today?

"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." (Psalm 139:16)

According to the prayer Jesus prayed in Gethsemane right before His crucifixion, the plan of salvation was already in tact before heaven and earth ever created by our Saviour Jesus Christ.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5)

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

Johnny_B said:

Would this apply in your opinion? The following is part of that "dry bones" prophecy.

Ezekiel 37:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

Bogadile said:

Then there is a very close relationship between the writings of Moses and the words of Jesus. Good post my friend!

John 5:47 "But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

preacher4truth · Sep 6, 2017

unobtrusive said:

First, which covenant are you referring to specifically?

Are you saying God didn't do it right, yourself, or are you just accusing others of saying this? A study of the covenants and their purposes is in order. The culpability of failure in these covenants fell upon man, not upon God.

God's policies have never failed. Are you a Kenneth Copeland follower, seeing God as the biggest failure of all time? I ask because this is his belief, that God is a failure, not just that, the biggest failure of all times.

God has always saved His people, OT & NT alike, via grace. God never had nor never needed a plan B since He is perfect in all His ways, acts and decrees. Perhaps you believe He did need a plan B but this shows some misunderstanding and bewilderment on your part?

With all due respect, some study on your part in theology and the attributes of God in particular would help you significantly instead of fabricating your theology via posts on a forum, ad lib. You are a bit sciolistic, as we are all in many areas, and some serious reading, prayer and study would assist you.

It reinforces it and God's Sovereignty in salvation. You are showing that you fall short of what "respecter of persons" really means. You are making it to mean that God must have been nicer to those in the NT era than in the OT era, therefore He is respecting us more than them.

But this is not what respecter of persons means.

You're conflating Sovereign grace and election with what it truly means to be a respecter of persons. The respecter of persons means that God isn't impressed or moved by mans social status, wealth, race, nationality, or otherwise. He chooses solely based upon His will and purpose and for no other reason, i.e. Acts 10:34; Proverbs 24:23; James 2:1ff; Deuteronomy 10:17.

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

loveme1 said:

In studying Catholicism through the years, it seemed obvious to me that the Catholic church ministered that the Jews must be grafted into the Gentile church, Jews adopting their doctrines, because the original plan with the Jews had been totally reversed and done for. I have also seen that ministry, to a great extent, in evangelical denominations, due to doctrines that teach Torah (Jewish term for law) rejection.

The Samaritan women was Gentile, according to the emigration of northern Israel, expelling most Israelites in the process. Jesus said to her...
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22)

DustyRhodes · Sep 6, 2017

God made a plan in the beginning and followed through with it throughout scripture.
There were actually 7 covenants of God and they were a progression of God's plan.
So each covenant did it's job until it became ineffective due to how people followed it.
So as each new covenant came into effect, it made the previous ones obsolete.
So God did not change the first to the last with one stroke. He guided us along as
we went from one covenant to another. The final covenant is our Lord Jesus Christ
and since Jesus is the new covenant, all the rest cease to exist, including the old law.
That is not to say that the old is historical only but it is to say the Christ fulfilled the
law which lead to death and we now live through faith. So faith brings us to God.
Jesus left us 2 comandments. Love the Lord your God will all your heart and your
neighbor as yourself. In these 2 commandments, all the law if fulfilled.

Hebrews 8
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]By calling this covenant “new,” he has made
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and
outdated will soon disappear.

We are saved by faith through grace.

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

OneFaith said:

God didn't change. God's plan is to show us the physical first, then the spiritual. God did things physically in the Old Testament that He now does spiritually in the New Testament. Jesus tied this in by teaching parables- comparing physical things to spiritual things in order to better our understanding. God didn't mess up, it was His plan all along. The Bible even says that those things were just a shadow, but that the real way (spiritual way) is found in Christ. He did it to show us that the physical way does not work.

God is not a respecter of persons, and He shows no favoritism. God, forknowing each soul, put the righteous into Israelite bodies, and the unrighteous into the bodies of those He would destroy in war through the Israelites, in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament (John chapter one) He switched to "whosoever will." Because He came to His own people, but His own people did not receive Him, so they lost their birthright. Israelites now have to be baptized into Christ just like everyone else.

Yes, the old way is nailed to the cross Colossians 2:14, we are no longer under Moses but under Christ Romans 7:1-4.

Then do you believe that the scriptures of the Old Testament are only physical and not spiritual?

unobtrusive · Sep 6, 2017

DustyRhodes said:

God made a plan in the beginning and followed through with it throughout scripture.
There were actually 7 covenants of God and they were a progression of God's plan.
So each covenant did it's job until it became ineffective due to how people followed it.
So as each new covenant came into effect, it made the previous ones obsolete.
So God did not change the first to the last with one stroke. He guided us along as
we went from one covenant to another. The final covenant is our Lord Jesus Christ
and since Jesus is the new covenant, all the rest cease to exist, including the old law.
That is not to say that the old is historical only but it is to say the Christ fulfilled the
law which lead to death and we now live through faith. So faith brings us to God.
Jesus left us 2 comandments. Love the Lord your God will all your heart and your
neighbor as yourself. In these 2 commandments, all the law if fulfilled.

Hebrews 8
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]By calling this covenant “new,” he has made
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and
outdated will soon disappear.

We are saved by faith through grace.

So each new dispensation deletes the previous? That would mean that the covenant with Abraham is obsolete.

Grace777x70 · Sep 6, 2017

The law of Moses was "until" the seed should come and it had a specific purpose. The seed is Jesus Himself - He is the promise.

Interestingly the Israelites actually asked for the law when they were at Mt. Sinai.

Luke 16:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Sin was always in the world since Adam's transgression but the Law came to reveal it and to enflame sin so they would see their need for a Savior.

Romans 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Galatians 3:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Galatians 3:22-25 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[SUP]23 [/SUP] But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. The Old Covenant law of Moses is a goner for the Christian who is in Christ. The law of sin and death is till in the world and this law still reveals sin to the unbeliever in Christ.

The Law is NOT of faith. It's purpose is to bring us to Christ - once that is done - we don't live by the law of Moses anymore - we live by the life of Christ in us.

We can read the law and see Christ in it - that He has fulfilled it all and now we walk and live in Him. All scripture is profitable.

Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 6, 2017

Bogadile said:

This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD as well as in the damnation of those Jews who rejected Christ before or after this date. They were all destroyed through unbelief.

But even though God severely judged Israel at that time, and spiritual and judicial blindness has come upon Israel "in part", God still has a plan for redeemed and restored Israel on earth in the Land of Promise. But that will only be effective after the second coming of Christ. During the Church Age unregenerate Jews and Gentiles are all alike in that they are all guilty before God. Even so, God has His protective hand over the unbelieving nation-state of Israel

MarcR · Sep 6, 2017

unobtrusive said:

I don't have any problem with dispensationalist thinking; but I don't look at things in those terms.
I believe that OT believers were saved the same way we are but with less information.

Yes, I do believe that the plan of Salvation was in place before creation.

God is not confined by time as we are; and knew what we would do with our free will; but gave us free will anyway because without it we would have no capacity for love.

Dude653 · Sep 6, 2017

Israel is an apostate Nation that abandoned the Covenant of Abraham by rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah

kaylagrl · Sep 6, 2017

Dude653 said:

Yes,Israel is blinded at the moment,as Romans says. But they lost only use of the land,not the title.The title still belongs to the Jews.

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