Jesus’ church treated differently than God’s Israel

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DustyRhodes

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2016
2,117
599
113
#21
So each new dispensation deletes the previous? That would mean that the covenant with Abraham is obsolete.

That is correct according to scripture.

Gal.5: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised,
Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Children of God
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the coming of this faith,[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]j[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So the law
was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

We now live by faith and not the law.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#22
Both Evangelical Christendom, and Catholicism preach that the covenant which God made with Israel is gone, indicating that God conceived a different plan after that first covenant failed. In other words, God didn’t do it right the first time, making the old testament only history, but non-effectual for the new testament church.

Why would an unchanging God, and Christ (Messiah) differentiate His policies, one failed policy for one group of the past, and an effective policy for another group of people in the present? This sends a message that God realized He didn’t do it right the first time so He had to make up a different plan.

If that is true Gospel, how do we reconcile that God is not a respecter of persons?
why do make such sweeping blanket statements?

you do this consistently and then wonder why people come along and disagree

you are off the charts wrong with this op and need to try to learn from people instead of telling everyone what they actually do not believe

for example, this forum is pretty divided on whether or not God is done with Israel

I happen to believe He most certainly is not and the Bible does not indicate that He is
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#23

I don't have any problem with dispensationalist thinking; but I don't look at things in those terms.
I believe that OT believers were saved the same way we are but with less information.

Yes, I do believe that the plan of Salvation was in place before creation.

God is not confined by time as we are; and knew what we would do with our free will; but gave us free will anyway because without it we would have no capacity for love.
That's what I think also.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,058
13,749
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#24
Israel is an apostate Nation that abandoned the Covenant of Abraham by rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah
God's longsuffering with Israel is an outstanding example of the grace of God towards a rebellious and disobedient people. If you will recall He was prepared to utterly destroy them in the wilderness, and raise up another nation through Moses, had Moses not interceded for them.

After that, Jesus of Nazareth was the Prophet prophesied by Moses, and they generally rejected their own Messiah, but were not utterly destroyed again. So God shows the world through His dealings with Israel as to how very gracious He is towards sinners and evildoers (and not just Israelites or Jews). Who can understand the amazing grace of God and Christ?

Yes, the modern state of Israel has also rejected any expectation of Messiah or faith in Christ Jesus, but God has not nullified his covenants with Abraham, Isaac. Jacob, and David. Therefore you can read all about a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel in the future (in the prophecy of Ezekiel), and note that David himself will be prince over Israel while Christ is King, and God dwells in their midst.

However, a warning to present-day Jews is in order. If they will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus right now (since today is their day of salvation), they will also perish eternally as did their ancestors.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#25
God's longsuffering with Israel is an outstanding example of the grace of God towards a rebellious and disobedient people. If you will recall He was prepared to utterly destroy them in the wilderness, and raise up another nation through Moses, had Moses not interceded for them.

After that, Jesus of Nazareth was the Prophet prophesied by Moses, and they generally rejected their own Messiah, but were not utterly destroyed again. So God shows the world through His dealings with Israel as to how very gracious He is towards sinners and evildoers (and not just Israelites or Jews). Who can understand the amazing grace of God and Christ?

Yes, the modern state of Israel has also rejected any expectation of Messiah or faith in Christ Jesus, but God has not nullified his covenants with Abraham, Isaac. Jacob, and David. Therefore you can read all about a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel in the future (in the prophecy of Ezekiel), and note that David himself will be prince over Israel while Christ is King, and God dwells in their midst.

However, a warning to present-day Jews is in order. If they will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus right now (since today is their day of salvation), they will also perish eternally as did their ancestors.
Very well explained my friend. Thank you. Most edifying.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#26
The promise of blessing God gave to Israel still stand and Israel will be restored. The church is receiving the blessings promised to Israel because Israel is disobedient and since the cross blinded by God.

The church is the wild olive graft into the vine but Israel will be graft back into the vine after they have been through the scourging of the tribulation.

Those who are obedient are treated better than those who are disobedient.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,978
3,630
113
#27

I don't have any problem with dispensationalist thinking; but I don't look at things in those terms.
I believe that OT believers were saved the same way we are but with less information.

Yes, I do believe that the plan of Salvation was in place before creation.

God is not confined by time as we are; and knew what we would do with our free will; but gave us free will anyway because without it we would have no capacity for love.
How God's salvation was applied is different. Can you give examples of those in the OT that were saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins? Even Jesus' disciples had no understanding of the cross until afterward.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#28
How God's salvation was applied is different. Can you give examples of those in the OT that were saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins? Even Jesus' disciples had no understanding of the cross until afterward.

I think some people in the OT knew prophecy probably better than we do today, such as King David, knowing that the finalization of salvation would be a future event, yet not to exclude those who had faith beforehand. See Hebrews 11.

"The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." (Exodus 15:2)

Moses knew it according to John 5:46. "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me."

"Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved." (Psalm 62:1-2)

One other thing. Angel [BRANCH] (before his name was Jesus) showed up to several people physically, two being Abraham and Jacob, just for examples. I think Melchizedek was Him (Christ) also.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#29

I think some people in the OT knew prophecy probably better than we do today, such as King David, knowing that the finalization of salvation would be a future event, yet not to exclude those who had faith beforehand. See Hebrews 11.

"The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." (Exodus 15:2)

Moses knew it according to John 5:46. "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me."

"Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved." (Psalm 62:1-2)

One other thing. Angel [BRANCH] (before his name was Jesus) showed up to several people physically, two being Abraham and Jacob, just for examples. I think Melchizedek was Him (Christ) also.
Oh... I forgot to mention Psalm chapter 22.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#30
God's longsuffering with Israel is an outstanding example of the grace of God towards a rebellious and disobedient people. If you will recall He was prepared to utterly destroy them in the wilderness, and raise up another nation through Moses, had Moses not interceded for them.
I don't think God intended to destroy Israel. I believe that He was testing Moses. Moses, in interceding for Israel and rejecting his own promotion passed the test. The example to us is that when a fellow believer compromises his or her testimony we should prayerfully try to help him or her see his or her error and not abandon him or her.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,058
13,749
113
#31
How God's salvation was applied is different. Can you give examples of those in the OT that were saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins? Even Jesus' disciples had no understanding of the cross until afterward.
While this is true, it is also true that all the OT saints were justified by grace through faith in God and the Lamb of God. Had Abel not learned this truth, he would have failed to offer those animal sacrifices in expectation that one day God would provide Himself a Lamb (as was revealed to Abraham). So when John the Baptizer pointed to Jesus and said "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) this would have resonated with the Jews as a reminder of what Abraham had said almost 2,000 years before. Please note (Heb 11:4):

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

If God testified of his gifts, it would appear that Adam & Eve and Cain & Abel must have known somehow of a substitutionary sacrifice of innocent blood for their guilt and their cleansing. Of course, when the Law was given, this became even clearer, but long before the Law was given Noah, Job, and Abraham were offering burnt offerings to God. We are not given all the details, and there are times when we must read between the lines.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#32
I don't think God intended to destroy Israel. I believe that He was testing Moses. Moses, in interceding for Israel and rejecting his own promotion passed the test. The example to us is that when a fellow believer compromises his or her testimony we should prayerfully try to help him or her see his or her error and not abandon him or her.
Moses was willing to sacrifice his own life for Israel's sake so they wouldn't be destroyed. Same relation with Abraham sacrificing Isaac it seems. You make a good point. Both of these men are mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,058
13,749
113
#33
I don't think God intended to destroy Israel. I believe that He was testing Moses.
What God said to Moses cannot be interpreted as less than what He intended (Num 14:12).

I will smite them with the pestilence = Destruction

and disinherit them = Disinheritance

and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they = a fresh start

That God was deadly serious is further confirmed by His promise to destroy them all in the wilderness, so that they would not enter the Promise Land (Num 14:23, 28-30,32). That God repeated His judgment on rebellious Israel twice should give us pause.

Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:... Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, Doubtless ye shall not come into the land,...But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
916
25
18
#34
What God said to Moses cannot be interpreted as less than what He intended (Num 14:12).

I will smite them with the pestilence = Destruction

and disinherit them = Disinheritance

and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they = a fresh start

That God was deadly serious is further confirmed by His promise to destroy them all in the wilderness, so that they would not enter the Promise Land (Num 14:23, 28-30,32). That God repeated His judgment on rebellious Israel twice should give us pause.

Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:... Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, Doubtless ye shall not come into the land,...But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in thiswilderness.
I agree.

All except for 2 people (Joshua form Ephraim, and Caleb from Judah), not one who left Egypt that was 20 years old or older, received any inheritance as was promised to Abraham because of their rebellion. It was by grace that all others left entered in.

Same goes for the church of today.
Same judgement, different day.
"The wages of sin is death."
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#35
That is correct according to scripture.

Gal.5: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised,
Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Children of God
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the coming of this faith,[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]j[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So the law
was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

We now live by faith and not the law.

We live by the same work of Christ's faith that lived in them as it does with us. The treasure in us that is not of us. We look back to the demonstration they looked ahead.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

God according to His labor of Love or work of His faith works by the same faith (His) in respect to a Gentile as well as a Jew. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to Him.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of "the grace" that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1Pe 1:10


And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.Act 15:9
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
#36
The factual basis of the OP is wrong!
First of all a massive sweeping statement devoid of content.
Secondly, the OP betrays a massive ignorance of the nature of a covenant - obvious to me here is the non-distinction between conditional and unconditional covenants...

Also, there is a vast difference between the Sinaitic Covenant and the OT - the two are definitely not interchangeable concepts.
The fact that the Sinaitic covenant is not binding on New Covenant believers in no way disqualifies the OT from providing spiritual benefit for the New covenant believer.

The "question" posed is not logically constructed.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#37
Both Evangelical Christendom, and Catholicism preach that the covenant which God made with Israel is gone, indicating that God conceived a different plan after that first covenant failed.


We teach that Christ founded the 'new' Israel on His apostles,. He was the true vine (the true Israel) and His Apostles had the congregation (ekklesia) built on them. For the first few years the church and the believing Jews were synonymous. They were the new Israel, the believing remnant of the old Israel which God had promised. This Israel was expanded by the incorporation of Gentiles who became a part of it (Rom 11). The true church (the believing church) are the continuation of Israel

In other words, God didn’t do it right the first time, making the old testament only history, but non-effectual for the new testament church.
God got it absolutely right. The Old Testament prophecies are alive in the new Israel. His Messiah came a prophesied and all who believed in Him were the true Israel.

Why would an unchanging God, and Christ (Messiah) differentiate His policies, one failed policy for one group of the past, and an effective policy for another group of people in the present?
It is all one policy. He has never changed, just expanded. This was His plan from the beginning (Gen 12).

This sends a message that God realized He didn’t do it right the first time so He had to make up a different plan.
It showed that God's plan was greater than men knew.

If that is true Gospel, how do we reconcile that God is not a respecter of persons?
It PROVED He is not a respecter of persons. All who believe may come to Him.
 
May 20, 2016
66
3
8
#38
Both Evangelical Christendom, and Catholicism preach that the covenant which God made with Israel is gone, indicating that God conceived a different plan after that first covenant failed. In other words, God didn’t do it right the first time, making the old testament only history, but non-effectual for the new testament church.

Why would an unchanging God, and Christ (Messiah) differentiate His policies, one failed policy for one group of the past, and an effective policy for another group of people in the present? This sends a message that God realized He didn’t do it right the first time so He had to make up a different plan.

If that is true Gospel, how do we reconcile that God is not a respecter of persons?
Both Evangelical Christendom, and Catholicism preach that the covenant which God made with Israel is gone, indicating that God conceived a different plan after that first covenant failed. In other words, God didn’t do it right the first time, making the old testament only history, but non-effectual for the new testament church.
The plan of God about His creation will never change from the beginning.

That we need to know ; what is His plan?
He wants us to bring glory for Him.
Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Men can glorify Him if men understood that their Salvation is by God’s Grace alone

Mat13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

In the premise ; Salvation is by God’s Grace alone there should be the chosen people, the redeemer, the savior.
These are the cores that He should teach us/His people to comprehend well, so the steps should be started from OT /old covenant before NT.

Then He chose a nation literally as His Chosen people ---> Israel nation, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ( not because this people has goodness more than other people but just only for the stipulation , means His people would be born from the wombs of this people only that time ) , for educating them He should treat differently than the other people .

Exo11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel (other examples ; treats to Canaanites , Amalekites , except Noah and families in that era )

Sometime God treats a special person from other people so special like His own people such Rahab etc , for teaching His literal Chosen people that they were chosen as literal actually just only for the stipulation, because for a long time period it surely does some things counterproductive to His Actual plan such arrogances of Israel over the other people , so it is inevitable being renewed one day to be the spiritually Chosen people

Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love ( Eph1:4) .

Many times He told that He is the only redeemer, He is the only savior.

Isa43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isa43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isa43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King



Why would an unchanging God, and Christ (Messiah) differentiate His policies, one failed policy for one group of the past, and an effective policy for another group of people in the present? This sends a message that God realized He didn’t do it right the first time so He had to make up a different plan.

If that is true Gospel, how do we reconcile that God is not a respecter of persons?
It turn out that one day times He proclaims that His covenant will no longer like the old one when He led the Jews went out from Egypt , but brought back His people from every places He scattered from .

Jer31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
(The father = other people beyond Israel, all the descendants of this people entirely lost/unsaved according to the old covenant)

31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD ( No longer physically Chosen people but spiritually Chosen people , distributed to all people according to His will ).

Jer32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely

Jer50:19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead

And the peak of this education is His arrival as the Messiah for demonstrating His Grace showing that the redeemer is only God , the Savior is only God.
Then by His Grace, we are /His churches begin to grasp that The Salvation is by God Grace alone (Men started to know that His Chosen = have spiritually ears to listen = have spiritually eyes to see = born of God = spirit abide in our bodies that is sent by God to wander/sojourn in this perishable earth Isa6:10 ,Mat11:15, Rev3:6 , Zec12:1 ,1Pet1:17) ---> can bring Glory to Him = the purpose of creation is achieved .

Isa6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Mat11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Rev3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

Zec12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1Pet1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:



Note ; men will never realize /recognize that the Salvation is by God Grace alone if they have not passed the OT.
No one really knows ; who is born of God, who is born of flesh , only God knows.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#39
How God's salvation was applied is different. Can you give examples of those in the OT that were saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins? Even Jesus' disciples had no understanding of the cross until afterward.

Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#40
What God said to Moses cannot be interpreted as less than what He intended (Num 14:12).

I will smite them with the pestilence = Destruction

and disinherit them = Disinheritance

and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they = a fresh start

That God was deadly serious is further confirmed by His promise to destroy them all in the wilderness, so that they would not enter the Promise Land (Num 14:23, 28-30,32). That God repeated His judgment on rebellious Israel twice should give us pause.

Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:... Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, Doubtless ye shall not come into the land,...But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in thiswilderness.
The Hebrew ahk knoo', translated I will smite, is not the qal imperfect 'I will smite' It is the hiphel imperfect 'it would serve them right if I smite' Hebrew does not have a subjunctive mood; but this is as close as you will get to a subjunctive.