Lets talk about Paul

[Rainrider]

I found the below post in the thread called "About Judaizing" and I have commented on it below the post.

Originally Posted by Grandpa

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

No longer working at the law doesn't mean we don't keep the law. It just means we don't keep it by our own understanding and our own strength.

So when someone says you have to rest on saturdays like the law says, they are going back to an OT, works based, mis-understanding of the Spiritual Law.

When someone says we Rest in Christ, the way in which they would call heresy, they are keeping the whole law by being the workmanship of God, through His Holy Spirit and not through a carnal understanding of a carnal law.

"Unquote"

Well said Grandpa! ( It says I must spread it around before I can give you a rep )

That is the whole essence of law and grace. The law of Christ Himself living in and through us does keep the whole intent of the law - just not in "the way" of the Old Covenant.

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Christ Himself - which is why Paul was able to say - " believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets."

Law-keepers mis-apply this to mean that Paul kept the law of Moses in it's original state - which is in a carnal ( of the flesh way ) keeping of it.

This of course is totally false because Paul said to the Galatians that if they get circumcised as the law states they should - then Christ will become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:2-4

( As a good Jew - I'm sure Paul kept some of his old ways of living too but he certainly didn't put gentile Christians under his Jewish cultural traditions and demand that they follow it or they are sinning and dis-obeying God as some Sabbath keepers try to put on other Christians )

I thank you for that post. Although it over looks that we don't keep the law to be saved, we keep it because we are saved. I once asked you a question, I won't repeat it nor your reply. I do this out of respect. Yet if I may, I will allude to it's intent. The question meant to show that ever when a person tells me the law has been removed, (if they truly follow, and walk in faith) they do adhear to the same law they claim is no longer valid. With your reply, you made my point for me. In it, you said that the Holy Spirit guided you away from sinful action. Not in the those words, yet the meaning remains unchanged.
So now I will ask one other thing of you. As I see you as a man of integrity, and I don't think you or I are looking to to argue. I do however think we are both seeking the truth in all matters. With that in mind, I do thank you for posting, and I will thank you now for your honest reply. May HaShem bless you, and all that you endeavor to do.

As I have asked that any scripture be limited to one or 2, I will follow the same for myself.
This does step out side of Paul, so please forgive me this once. If the Law has been removed, and we are not to be judged by it, Please if you will answer this.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[fn] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Does this tell us that we will judged by what job we hold in life, or is it telling us that we will be judged according to the Law of HaShem? Keep in mind I have many others that back the teachings of this being Torah. If you like we can cover them all. Some do come from Paul, though they are more about faith and obedience.

 

[Karraster]

This is a serious question and deserves some serious consideration. I say we will be judged according to our compliance with the one who Moses spoke of "that prophet"~

Acts 3:22For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He tells you.

Now this part where Messiah speaks, who is "that prophet"

(KJV) matthew/23 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not

Personally I like shem tov's Hebrew Mathew it says "do everything he (Moses) bid you observe" cos I don't want to try and do all the pharisees and scribes said do. I'd be in big trouble, besides why would Messiah be smacking down the pharisees rules one minute, then turn around and tell us to do them?

Needless to say, then there was a change in the priesthood after His once and perfect sacrifice so we no longer do blood sacrifice.
This is what I believe and do my best to live. I don't always do what's best, but I always cling to Messiah.

 

[Grace777x70]

I thank you for that post. Although it over looks that we don't keep the law to be saved, we keep it because we are saved. I once asked you a question, I won't repeat it nor your reply. I do this out of respect. Yet if I may, I will allude to it's intent. The question meant to show that ever when a person tells me the law has been removed, (if they truly follow, and walk in faith) they do adhear to the same law they claim is no longer valid. With your reply, you made my point for me. In it, you said that the Holy Spirit guided you away from sinful action. Not in the those words, yet the meaning remains unchanged.
So now I will ask one other thing of you. As I see you as a man of integrity, and I don't think you or I are looking to to argue. I do however think we are both seeking the truth in all matters. With that in mind, I do thank you for posting, and I will thank you now for your honest reply. May HaShem bless you, and all that you endeavor to do.

As I have asked that any scripture be limited to one or 2, I will follow the same for myself.
This does step out side of Paul, so please forgive me this once. If the Law has been removed, and we are not to be judged by it, Please if you will answer this.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[fn] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Does this tell us that we will judged by what job we hold in life, or is it telling us that we will be judged according to the Law of HaShem? Keep in mind I have many others that back the teachings of this being Torah. If you like we can cover them all. Some do come from Paul, though they are more about faith and obedience.

Well. Good questions. Are you Jewish in your background? I was wondering why you call Jesus - HaShem - when Gentiles call Him - Jesus.

There are different books for different people.

There is the book of Life - in it are "names" - not any deeds.

Christians that have Christ in them are in the book of life. I personally believe that Jesus died for the whole world and that all people are written in the book of life to begin with until they reject the sacrifice of Christ. Heb. 10:26

Philippians 4:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Then there are "books" of those that will judged by their own works - both religious people that knew the law of Moses and those Gentiles that had the law written on their hearts. Romans 2 talks about this. No one will stand before God and make it into being with Him for eternity based on their own works of merit. This group does not have Christ in them.

Those who have rejected Christ will be judged by their deeds. Christians are safe in Christ for He is our righteousness, He is our redemption, He is our sanctification and our wisdom.

He is our life! For we have died and our life is hidden with Him in God. Col. 3:3 These are in and stay in the book of life because of what He has done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

But the law of Moses is not for the righteous. ( 1 Tim. 1:9 ) We are the righteous in Christ. We do not establish our own righteousness by what we do or don't do.

The Christian has died to the law, been released from the law and is not under the law of Moses anymore. and it can't get any plainer than that.

I actually have no interest in going over the law of Moses other than to see Christ in them as all scripture speak of Him. The law is a shadow of things of which the real substance is Christ Himself.

I don't want to study the picture of my wife when I have "her". The law is a picture of Christ - but Christ Himself is how we live now - not by the law of Moses. I will make 2 posts about this to share my views of what I see in the scriptures when I look through the lens of Christ Himself.

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law!

When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now,

the law of liberty in Christ Jesus

the law of love

the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ).

The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Jesus said that all of the law and the prophets "speak of Him" He is the real substance - not the shadow of the Law itself.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day such as the Sabbath , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so.

These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things in the Law including the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament or you are sinning and you are not obeying God"

- that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

This is a genuine Judaizing spirit that perverts the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10

 

[Grace777x70]

How do we live now in the New Covenant if the Christian has died to the law of Moses, been released from the law and not under the law but under grace now?

We don't need to live by the moral code in the law of Moses which says in Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with a animal. The law of Christ Himself , the law of love, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop this.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses including the 10 commandments anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

Does that mean we can now kill people? Does that mean we can now steal?

The word "law" means "principle, rule, instruction".

We do have laws in the New Covenant.

They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us. Jesus fulfilled the law.

The law ( which the 10 commandments were a part of ) was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty in Christ Jesus ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ Himself in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.


Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Grandpa]

I thank you for that post. Although it over looks that we don't keep the law to be saved, we keep it because we are saved. I once asked you a question, I won't repeat it nor your reply. I do this out of respect. Yet if I may, I will allude to it's intent. The question meant to show that ever when a person tells me the law has been removed, (if they truly follow, and walk in faith) they do adhear to the same law they claim is no longer valid. With your reply, you made my point for me. In it, you said that the Holy Spirit guided you away from sinful action. Not in the those words, yet the meaning remains unchanged.
So now I will ask one other thing of you. As I see you as a man of integrity, and I don't think you or I are looking to to argue. I do however think we are both seeking the truth in all matters. With that in mind, I do thank you for posting, and I will thank you now for your honest reply. May HaShem bless you, and all that you endeavor to do.

As I have asked that any scripture be limited to one or 2, I will follow the same for myself.
This does step out side of Paul, so please forgive me this once. If the Law has been removed, and we are not to be judged by it, Please if you will answer this.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[fn] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Does this tell us that we will judged by what job we hold in life, or is it telling us that we will be judged according to the Law of HaShem? Keep in mind I have many others that back the teachings of this being Torah. If you like we can cover them all. Some do come from Paul, though they are more about faith and obedience.

A lot of people will be judged according to the Law because they didn't have faith in Christ.

But really, they will be judged by their faith, or their lack of faith.

John 3:17-19
[FONT=&quot]17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/FONT]

 

[Rainrider]

How do we live now in the New Covenant if the Christian has died to the law of Moses, been released from the law and not under the law but under grace now?

We don't need to live by the moral code in the law of Moses which says in Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with a animal. The law of Christ Himself , the law of love, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop this.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses including the 10 commandments anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

Does that mean we can now kill people? Does that mean we can now steal?

The word "law" means "principle, rule, instruction".

We do have laws in the New Covenant.

They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us. Jesus fulfilled the law.

The law ( which the 10 commandments were a part of ) was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty in Christ Jesus ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ Himself in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.


Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

That may well be well and good for any that find the Law to hard to deal with, or wish it removed for what ever reason. Yet by your own words, The Spirit of HaShem guides us in the Lew. To keep us from sin. As we know sin is,
1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Also once more we face the idea that Paul speaks against himself. A contradiction of his own thoughts. You say he speaks against the Law, Yet
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

As we see, he also speaks being justified by it. This is why a study of Paul s indeed needed.

 

[Grace777x70]

That may well be well and good for any that find the Law to hard to deal with, or wish it removed for what ever reason. Yet by your own words, The Spirit of HaShem guides us in the Lew. To keep us from sin. As we know sin is,
1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Also once more we face the idea that Paul speaks against himself. A contradiction of his own thoughts. You say he speaks against the Law, Yet
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

As we see, he also speaks being justified by it. This is why a study of Paul s indeed needed.

If you read Romans 2 "in context" Paul is using that to show that both Jews who have the law and Gentiles who have the law in their hearts will be judged by that law. The law and their adherence and breaking of it will see if they are justified or not.

Again - the law of Moses is NOT for the righteous. 1 Tim. 1:9

We are the righteous in Christ - we have died to the law, been released from the law and not under the law of Moses - but under grace only. Romans 6:14 & Romans 7:1-6

Paul goes on to say in chapter 3 that no one will be justified by the works of the law so he is not contradicting himself when you read it through the revelation of Christ Himself and His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

The Gentile Christian is NOT under the law of Moses nor is the Jewish Christian for that manner.

Romans 3:19-20 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;


[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.


Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.



Are you of Jewish descent? Is that why you call Jesus by a Jewish name? What does HaShem mean? I'm not familiar with that term. Thanks.

 

[Muzungu256]

i see my prediction came true! check back to my post on the first page u see.....
called it!!!! simma simma simmaaa!

 

[Grace777x70]

i know where this is going. i can see the signs u see. the code is in place.
this is going to be a "paul taught us to keep the torah" thread. remember i called it

Yes...it does look like you called it for sure.

Paul is no more calling Gentile Christians to keep the Torah then Donald Duck and Daffy Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Paul preached Christ and not in the carnal keeping of the law of Moses. Love - the love of God poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit is how we live now - the very life of Christ in us. Rom. 5:5

We don't live by the law of Moses - we live by Christ Himself who fulfilled the law. His life in us is the fulfillment of the whole intent of the law not just in the carnal observing of it.

Jesus actually elevated the law of Moses to reveal it's full intent. The law said "you shall not commit adultery" Jesus said "You have heard it said - you shall not commit adultery - but "I say" unto you - If you lust in your heart you have committed adultery."

 

[Jimbone]

If you want an in-depth study of the life and epistles of Paul, I would recommend the book by the same title by Conybeare and Howson. I own a copy but you can read it on line. https://archive.org/details/lifeandepistles00howsgoog

Paul was a very unique individual and chosen by Christ to do an outstanding work for Him and for His Kingdom. Since over half the New Testament comes from Paul, we need to be perfectly clear that there is absolutely no conflict between Christ and Paul.

Thanks for the link and recommendation, Paul is the one I really want to talk to in eternity, everyone has their person they want really to meet from the Bible, a far second to Jesus of course, but Paul has always been mine (always as in the last 5 years since I was saved) , and I can wait to meet him, but am still looking forward to it. Thanks again.

 

[Jimbone]

Yes...it does look like you called it for sure.

Paul is no more calling Gentile Christians to keep the Torah then Donald Duck and Daffy Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

Paul preached Christ and not in the carnal keeping of the law of Moses. Love - the love of God poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit is how we live now - the very life of Christ in us. Rom. 5:5

We don't live by the law of Moses - we live by Christ Himself who fulfilled the law. His life in us is the fulfillment of the whole intent of the law not just in the carnal observing of it.

Jesus actually elevated the law of Moses to reveal it's full intent. The law said "you shall not commit adultery" Jesus said "You have heard it said - you shall not commit adultery - but "I say" unto you - If you lust in your heart you have committed adultery."

Are you trying to tell me Donald and Daffy are not the two witnesses? I can't believe it, scripture please, and I need it to say specifically that Donald and Daffy Duck are not the two witnesses of Revolation.

 

[stonesoffire]

Are you trying to tell me Donald and Daffy are not the two witnesses? I can't believe it, scripture please, and I need it to say specifically that Donald and Daffy Duck are not the two witnesses of Revolation.

That is only found in the last issue of the revolation comics. I didn't buy that one.

Now Revelations is another matter.

 

[stonesoffire]

All Jews today call God Hashem..

 

[Grace777x70]

Are you trying to tell me Donald and Daffy are not the two witnesses? I can't believe it, scripture please, and I need it to say specifically that Donald and Daffy Duck are not the two witnesses of Revolation.

Wel. "O Ye of little faith"......it does say in the book of Revelation that there are "birds of the air coming"....so it just may be them showing up......

Revelation 19:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

 

[Rainrider]

i see my prediction came true! check back to my post on the first page u see.....
called it!!!! simma simma simmaaa!

My question i, if people don't agree with what the thread, why do find it necessary to follow it? Just follow what Yeshua told us and kick the dust from your feet as you walk away. You will not find me disrupting a thread that doesn't agree with my understand, I simply walk away rather than be rude and show an unchristian spirit (as some do) by being disrespectful and disruptive.

 

[Grace777x70]

All Jews today call God Hashem..

Oh...so it means God in the Hebrew language? Not Jesus? He is Yeshua - I think. I'm not Jewish nor do I know Hebrew.

 

[Rainrider]

All Jews today call God Hashem..

As I am not Jewish in anyway, you may wish to rephrase that. May times in life a person develop habits that just stay with them after years of use.

 

[Rainrider]

Oh...so it means God in the Hebrew language? Not Jesus? He is Yeshua - I think. I'm not Jewish nor do I know Hebrew.

Yes Yeshua means God is salvation. Jesus as you call him. Don't get me wrong, I have always said that If He created all language, He understand them all. SO the title one uses IMHO doesn't really matter. One should use what they know, and He will know what is in your heart.
As for me, after many years of studying with many Jewish leaders, it has became a habit I have not tried to brake.

Although HaShem in all truth means, THE NAME

 

[Muzungu256]

Oh...so it means God in the Hebrew language? Not Jesus? He is Yeshua - I think. I'm not Jewish nor do I know Hebrew.

HaShem means the name. they are afraid to say God or Yahweh