Not By Works

[PeterJens]

I have yet to see anyone who pushes a works based, self preserved I have works to prove salvation accurately and or fairly describe works of wood, hay and stubble found in believers who are saved with NOTHING to show after their works are burnt to a crisp.....it is OBVIOUS that works of gold, silver and precious stones are indicative of faithful service after salvation.......

I have also failed to see the same people accurately and fairly assess or describe the works of one who teaches, but DOES NOT DO and yet STILL IN THE KINGDOM, but called least which is indicative of NOT serving or doing the works that they teach about.....

The simplest truth is the obvious...SALVATION is a ONE off event with eternal consequence by faith......the above are indicative of what happens AFTER faith and last time I checked....one who has been born from above by FAITH has already done the works of the FATHER before they have lifted ONE finger to do ANY WORKS after salvation.........

This sounds confused.

I have been accused of being a works salvationist because I believe Paul who aspires to walk
like Jesus. If a position could be called defeatest this is it, to pick who those who hunger and thirst
for righteousness, ie love of God and love of people, are evil doomed to hell believers.

Now today I help an elderly lady, because she had a need. I did not do it to be a work, or to prove
who I was, but because I saw a need I could help her with.

What shocks me is when people talk about helping others as a proof of something or motivated
to be a witness, rather than just loving and serving others.

God gives us life and blesses us because that is who He is, not because He desires we know and
acknowledge Him. Ofcourse He knows that is what brings life to us, and it is what He takes delight
in, but He does not do things only for a positive outcome. The nature of love is to bless all, even
ones enemies who will kill you, and never regret it. Everyone will have judgement for their actions,
so it is not that people escape consequences, it is just love desires to give opportunity to all.

After seeing the insecurity and betrayal people have felt, and knowing how to relate to God being
like this is so hard, I understand why Jesus said He chose us. We are not a mistake, and He does not
cast us out through our mistakes and wondering. He will bring us through. But those who want to teach
judgementalism against believers and rejection of some as evil, they are not from the Lord in their
intention but hurt people desiring revenge for years of struggling in legalism.

But sadly their vehment accusations demonstrate rather than being free from this it has just flipped
into arrogance of they have arrived though flawed and failing, and those who hold to purity and
cleansing are the real hypocrites and false teachers. They do not have real faith, because the core
message of victory is not something they believe or can apply to their own lives.

 

[dcontroversal]

This sounds confused.

I have been accused of being a works salvationist because I believe Paul who aspires to walk
like Jesus. If a position could be called defeatest this is it, to pick who those who hunger and thirst
for righteousness, ie love of God and love of people, are evil doomed to hell believers.

Now today I help an elderly lady, because she had a need. I did not do it to be a work, or to prove
who I was, but because I saw a need I could help her with.

What shocks me is when people talk about helping others as a proof of something or motivated
to be a witness, rather than just loving and serving others.

God gives us life and blesses us because that is who He is, not because He desires we know and
acknowledge Him. Ofcourse He knows that is what brings life to us, and it is what He takes delight
in, but He does not do things only for a positive outcome. The nature of love is to bless all, even
ones enemies who will kill you, and never regret it. Everyone will have judgement for their actions,
so it is not that people escape consequences, it is just love desires to give opportunity to all.

After seeing the insecurity and betrayal people have felt, and knowing how to relate to God being
like this is so hard, I understand why Jesus said He chose us. We are not a mistake, and He does not
cast us out through our mistakes and wondering. He will bring us through. But those who want to teach
judgementalism against believers and rejection of some as evil, they are not from the Lord in their
intention but hurt people desiring revenge for years of struggling in legalism.

But sadly their vehment accusations demonstrate rather than being free from this it has just flipped
into arrogance of they have arrived though flawed and failing, and those who hold to purity and
cleansing are the real hypocrites and false teachers. They do not have real faith, because the core
message of victory is not something they believe or can apply to their own lives.

There is not one thing confusing about it....but I noticed you gave a lot of opinion without one verse of scripture and or addressing exactly what I have said people like you fail to address.....

Thanks....Point proven yet again.....

 

[TruthTalk]

there are no works based salvationists in this thread

what there are, are many posts attempting to make that case, but they only make the case for twisting...both scripture and most certainly the posts of those who state what the Bible itself states

faith leads to good works

now you seem to have that confused. you appear to be saying works lead to faith or perhaps salvation

those, are your own words and make a case for your ability to create a case against people who have said nothing even close to what you and others here have stated

not one person here, that I have seen, but feel free to provide an actual post if you know of one, has said that works save OR you must have works to stay saved

what I say being repeated often and then maligned by yourself and others, is that true faith will display works

twist that...go ahead...it is not really misunderstood. I think this thread has reached the pinnacle of misappropriation both of God's own truths and even the stand of grace no works at all people

nothing has been proven other than people will take a stand according to what they have been taught and will quite happily leave out what does not fit in with that particular theology

Hello 7Seasrekeyed, I don't malign people for their thoughts. Here is one example that I responded to appropriately.

Believing AND Loving One Another, is what is required for one to be Saved, unless of coarse you are unable to Love one another, such as death bed confessions.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave

Believing and loving one another will not save a persons soul. I am not a hyper/grace person and have always believed there will be evidence of saving faith in the life of a believer. The issue here that has been going back and forth is, do my works keep me saved. God's saving grace plus my good works will not keep me saved. "True faith will display works"; we are saved unto good works, not by them. I do not malign people or make rude remarks about someone's faith, but have it your way I am what you think I am.

"Faith leads to good works," I agree but they won't keep you saved only God can. OP: Not By Works

I will stop using the phrase "works based salvation," thank you.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes, sadly have had the experience of legalism for a short while,

love and joy do not do not thrive in the house of legalism.

Thank you for sharing because I can so relate!

Hi UnderGrace, when I was first born a gain I was offered a 12 week new believers class so that I could understand the basics of my new faith in Jesus, which I was first in line to sign up, I was 28yrs old. At the end of the twelve weeks we were asked to fill out a simple testimony questionnaire. Part 1 was what were you like before God saved you and Part 2 was what are you like now after God has saved you.

Most people in the class room who wish to give their testimony responded with; I am more forgiving, more loving, I like to read my bible go to Church and learn about Jesus. Nobody responded; "yes now we must keep Jesus' commandments and do everything He commanded us to to do." And my bible say's, "Never lose your first love,"

The opposite effect of our, "Joy in the Lord", happens when legalistic Christian's come along and start preaching their false Grace plus works doctrine, (legalism), and the new or old Christian's say's okay, and then the believer loses all of their once held Joy in the Lord." If you get caught up in a legalistic Church, run don't walk to the nearest door.

God bless.....

 

[PeterJens]

There is not one thing confusing about it....but I noticed you gave a lot of opinion without one verse of scripture and or addressing exactly what I have said people like you fail to address.....

Thanks....Point proven yet again.....

dc - This has never been a game of points, because you are not listening.

And I am quoting scripture by the words I speak.
"I am the way, the truth and the Life"

If you believe this, then the sermon on the mount is the way to life.
And this is not legalism, but a challenge to our hearts to wonder why we fail and to turn
us to love, love of Jesus and love of man.

What is a wonder to me, is why you oppose these very words of Christ?
Jesus said people like this have built their house upon the sand, and when the storm comes
it will collapse with a great crash.

So I have never been about winning, or arguing, just testifying to the love of Christ at work
in me. If you can join me in this, amen, if not, God bless you, wherever you may go.

 

[preacher4truth]

I have yet to see anyone who pushes a works based, self preserved I have works to prove salvation accurately and or fairly describe works of wood, hay and stubble found in believers who are saved with NOTHING to show after their works are burnt to a crisp.....it is OBVIOUS that works of gold, silver and precious stones are indicative of faithful service after salvation.......

Well, your mistake is assuming wood, hay stubble means they have nothing to show (the part of your quote I snipped which I'll quote in a second).

The test is according to how they build upon the foundation. Motive. Quality.

You're making it an absence of evidence, one that "DOES NOT DO" and according to you is "STILL IN THE KINGDOM." I'd be real careful preaching that nonsense because it is simply not true.

Also, your last statement is off track as well, that by believing THEY did the works of the Father according to your take. That isn't what the text teaches at all, believing is the work of the Father, not the work of the person, John 6:29. This verse is showing faith is God's gift, that believing is from God, not man.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, sadly have had the experience of legalism for a short while,

love and joy do not do not thrive in the house of legalism.

Thank you for sharing because I can so relate!

Faith in Jesus, is faith is love works and is victorious.
And is love works, you will walk in the ways of Jesus.

Why? Because you know love reigns, and there is no other way.
This is not legalism, but transformation of the heart and soul through the Holy Spirit and
the cross. Repent and believe for today He brings healing to all who believe and follow
in His ways, Amen.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello 7Seasrekeyed, I don't malign people for their thoughts. Here is one example that I responded to appropriately.

Believing AND Loving One Another, is what is required for one to be Saved, unless of coarse you are unable to Love one another, such as death bed confessions.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave

Believing and loving one another will not save a persons soul. I am not a hyper/grace person and have always believed there will be evidence of saving faith in the life of a believer. The issue here that has been going back and forth is, do my works keep me saved. God's saving grace plus my good works will not keep me saved. "True faith will display works"; we are saved unto good works, not by them. I do not malign people or make rude remarks about someone's faith, but have it your way I am what you think I am.

"Faith leads to good works," I agree but they won't keep you saved only God can. OP: Not By Works

I will stop using the phrase "works based salvation," thank you.

I have no problem calling a spade a spade......anyone who teaches salvation can be LOST and or is gained, maintained and or embellished with works in order to keep it pushes a works based salvation at the core......

JESUS ALONE saves eternally by faith thru grace<---anything other than this is a works based salvation.....end of story!

 

[UnderGrace]

AMEN !!!! (shouting it out to the world)

He has accomplished for us a complete salvation

I have no problem calling a spade a spade......anyone who teaches salvation can be LOST and or is gained, maintained and or embellished with works in order to keep it pushes a works based salvation at the core......

JESUS ALONE saves eternally by faith thru grace<---anything other than this is a works based salvation.....end of story!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Man tries his hardest to keep his faith. Yet, sometimes he fumbles it away...

And then there are those in the race who drop their faith before they reach their goal...

But these are those who were never part of the family of God.

So right was John when he penned They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.[1 John 2:19]

 

[TruthTalk]

I have no problem calling a spade a spade......anyone who teaches salvation can be LOST and or is gained, maintained and or embellished with works in order to keep it pushes a works based salvation at the core......

JESUS ALONE saves eternally by faith thru grace<---anything other than this is a works based salvation.....end of story!

Here's some excellent music, "at the core." I know you like it.....

[video=youtube;tCcvQrvRlSM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCcvQrvRlSM[/video]
God Can

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, your mistake is assuming wood, hay stubble means they have nothing to show (the part of your quote I snipped which I'll quote in a second).

The test is according to how they build upon the foundation. Motive. Quality.

You're making it an absence of evidence, one that "DOES NOT DO" and according to you is "STILL IN THE KINGDOM." I'd be real careful preaching that nonsense because it is simply not true.

Also, your last statement is off track as well, that by believing THEY did the works of the Father according to your take. That isn't what the text teaches at all, believing is the work of the Father, not the work of the person, John 6:29. This verse is showing faith is God's gift, that believing is from God, not man.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The indication is clear concerning the doing.....those who do are called the great in the kingdom....those who teach but break (don't do) are called the least IN the kingdom....I am fairly confident you understand the word IN....

I agree with your first part...but the foundation IS JESUS and SALVATION.....works of wood, hay and stubble INDICATE what type of building in your eyes grand poohbah ?

The context is the question.....

Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

the answer Jesus gave

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

I think the question and answer proves the point.....

 

[J7]

Will this hit a million views?

 

[preacher4truth]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You're all over the place with texts and trying to meld them together. The above doesn't mix with your post. Your post prior, with due respect, was a conglomeration of a lot of things that didn't flow. Sorry but true. It therefore wasn't exactly correct. It was shot gun.

The indication is clear concerning the doing.....those who do are called the great in the kingdom....those who teach but break (don't do) are called the least IN the kingdom....I am fairly confident you understand the word IN....

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll take a screenshot, have it framed and matted.

I agree with your first part...but the foundation IS JESUS and SALVATION.....works of wood, hay and stubble INDICATE what type of building in your eyes grand poohbah ?

The context is the question.....

Thanks. Let's be blood brothers!

Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

the answer Jesus gave

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

I think the question and answer proves the point.....

Yes, I know what the text says.

And means.

Yep, this is the work of God that you believe. It isn't the work of man doing the work of God. Sorry, but you're incorrect here my man.

 

[dcontroversal]

You're all over the place with texts and trying to meld them together. The above doesn't mix with your post. Your post prior, with due respect, was a conglomeration of a lot of things that didn't flow. Sorry but true. It therefore wasn't exactly correct. It was shot gun.



Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll take a screenshot, have it framed and matted.



Thanks. Let's be blood brothers!



Yes, I know what the text says.

And means.

Yep, this is the work of God that you believe. It isn't the work of man doing the work of God. Sorry, but you're incorrect here my man.

I wasn't implying that it was man doing the work of GOD..... and cool haha peace! <---Faith to faith.......the work of GOD

 

[preacher4truth]

I wasn't implying that it was man doing the work of GOD..... and cool haha peace! <---Faith to faith.......the work of GOD

So you then agree that believing is the work of God?

 

[TruthTalk]

Will this hit a million views?

A million plus 1 by tomorrow morning - no prize, just pure enjoyment.

 

[dcontroversal]

So you then agree that believing is the work of God?

I have always said that....and got raked over the coals by Megiddo for that stance.....it is all Christ, his faith, his work, his gift of faith, his endurance etc. imparted to man as a gift

 

[TruthTalk]

So you then agree that believing is the work of God?

Plus may I add, believing begins in the mind, and then a measure of faith is given to each one of us by God. Our faith grows and so does our trust in a loving Father.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do not but that is okay...not the topic of this thread

Not going to rake anyone over the coals either

So you then agree that believing is the work of God?