REFORMED?

[shrume]

Sorry fella it is true.

No, it is a lie. Several aspects of Calvinism are not true.

What is untrue is your misunderstanding and resultant doctrine.

Obviously I do not agree.

He didn't die for every mans sin who have ever lived.

Yes, he did.

That is, unless you're a Universalist. That must be it, you're a Universalist, and therefore following your beliefs logically He paid the penalty of sin for everyone who has ever lived

No, I am not a Universalist. People must choose to believe.

so all are in as far as heaven

Nope.

their sins are paid for.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[preacher4truth]

true.

All that matters is the fact you are a Universalist by your own teachings: Since He has already paid for the sins of the entire world, all will be saved.

Yep. That makes you a Univeralist.

 

[shrume]

All that matters is the fact you are a Universalist by your own teachings: Since He has already paid for the sins of the entire world, all will be saved.

Yep. That makes you a Univeralist.

Please read my previous post.

And please stop misquoting me.

 

[preacher4truth]

Please read my previous post.

That's the post I've already responded to.

Here, again, is my response:

All that matters is the fact you are a Universalist by your own teachings: Since He has already paid for the sins of the entire world, all will be saved.

Yep. That makes you a Univeralist.

Yes, you are in fact a Universalist as you believe Christ paid for the sins of every person who has ever lived. There is no way around it, all are then bound for heaven.

The bottom line? Your Universalist teachings are false, you do not know what you're talking about and are in grave error.

 

[shrume]

That's the post I've already responded to.

Here, again, is my response:

Well, lets try it this way...

Yes, you are in fact a Universalist

No, I am not a Universalist. There are unfortunately many people who will not be saved.

as you believe Christ paid for the sins of every person who has ever lived.

That is true.

1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

There is no way around it, all are then bound for heaven.

No, that is not true. As I stated previously, people must choose to believe. That's why we are to preach the gospel, so people can hear it and have a chance to decide.

The bottom line? Your Universalist teachings are false

I am not a Universalist, and do not teach or believe Universalist teachings.

you do not know what you're talking about and are in grave error.

As I stated earlier, many aspects of Calvinism are not true.

One day you'll know.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, lets try it this way...No, I am not a Universalist.

Your teachings betray you, and as Spurgeon rightly stated "Calvinism is the Gospel."

That you claim "Calvinism" a lie shows you misunderstand it just as much as you misunderstand 1 John 2:2.

You're a Universalist and never knew it, or at the least need to think and rethink your beliefs because they are definitely Universalist teachings. Jesus did not pay for the sins of every person who has ever lived, if He did then there is no need for them to go to hell, their sins are paid in full.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Believer's baptism by immersion not required for Salvation

The RCC taught that water baptism produces baptismal regeneration, hence required for salvation. But those who practiced believer's baptism (Baptists, Mennonites) never taught that it was required for salvation. Churches of Christ teach that doctrine. So I am not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Also Baptists teach the eternal security of th believer, but some Mennonites may not.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your teachings betray you, and as Spurgeon rightly stated "Calvinism is the Gospel."

Possibly. But Spurgeon did not preach that only the elect will be saved. That is evident from his sermons. The fact of the matter is that Calvinism opposes the true Gospel, therefore it is "another gospel".

 

[MarcR]

Well, lets try it this way...


No, I am not a Universalist. There are unfortunately many people who will not be saved.


That is true.

1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


No, that is not true. As I stated previously, people must choose to believe. That's why we are to preach the gospel, so people can hear it and have a chance to decide.


I am not a Universalist, and do not teach or believe Universalist teachings.


As I stated earlier, many aspects of Calvinism are not true.

One day you'll know.

1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV


All sins of every person saved or unsaved were forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

The unsaved are those who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus said " ye have not chosen me; but, I have chosen You." Soverign election! Jn 15:16

Jesus also said " whosoever will may come" man's freewill! Rv 22:17 my paraphrase.

How can these two statements from Jesus be simultaneously true?

I believe that God, in His divine sovereignty chooses on the basis of foreknowledge of who will willingly accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf.

 

[Bladerunner]

Because of a recent conversation I thought it might be interesting to post this thread.

Based on my understanding [or perhaps misunderstanding] of Church history I have come to recognize 4 major doctrinal distinctives that differentiate the denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings from those denominations founded on Reformation teachings.

I am not looking to offend anyone; I'm looking to confirm or correct my understanding [or lack thereof]!

1) Believer's baptism by immersion not required for Salvation
2) Eternal security of the believer
3) rejection of literal trans-substantiation
4) congregational government of the church

Those denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings include but are not limited to:

The Christian Church, The Baptists, Christian Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Mennonite, In Faith, & Mission Covenant.

Not really sure what your looking for here?? The Baptist churches do Believe in all 4 of your points. I am not too sure about the others.

A little more information on what you are trying to find out would be of help!

Have a blessed evening,
Blade

 

[preacher4truth]

Possibly. But Spurgeon did not preach that only the elect will be saved. That is evident from his sermons. The fact of the matter is that Calvinism opposes the true Gospel, therefore it is "another gospel".

Nothing but falsities. Please prove your false premise that Spurgeon "did not" (dogmatic statement of yours) preach that only the elect would be saved. Just one example will suffice since you claim this to be true, thus you should already have proof. (which you don't because it isn't remotely true).

I'll await your "proof" that doesn't exist.

Provide the proof, not disdain for me, proof.

 

[Bladerunner]

1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV


All sins of every person saved or unsaved were forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

The unsaved are those who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus said " ye have not chosen me; but, I have chosen You." Soverign election! Jn 15:16

Jesus also said " whosoever will may come" man's freewill! Rv 22:17 my paraphrase.

How can these two statements from Jesus be simultaneously true?

I believe that God, in His divine sovereignty chooses on the basis of foreknowledge of who will willingly accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf.

MarcR: Your last sentence more or less hits the nail on the head. "Foreknowledge" is the key word. As you stated, God already knows (from the beginning and before) of those who will reject him and those who will love him and follow his commandments. He therefore calls them His elect.

Is this what you were speaking of in the first post?http://christianchat.com/images/icons/icon6.png

 

[UnderGrace]

Jesus said " ye have not chosen me; but, I have chosen You." Soverign election! Jn 15:16

Is this about sovereign election to eternal life?

Or rather that they should go and bear fruit

The sovereign choice of Jesus in John 15:16 is not a choice of some out of the mass of humanity to receive eternal life, but rather, the choice of some out of all His followers and disciples to have a deeper fellowship with Him so that they might serve Him and become more productive followers.

1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV


All sins of every person saved or unsaved were forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

The unsaved are those who reject Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus said " ye have not chosen me; but, I have chosen You." Soverign election! Jn 15:16

Jesus also said " whosoever will may come" man's freewill! Rv 22:17 my paraphrase.

How can these two statements from Jesus be simultaneously true?

I believe that God, in His divine sovereignty chooses on the basis of foreknowledge of who will willingly accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf.

 

[MarcR]

Is this about sovereign election to eternal life?

Or rather that they should go and bear fruit

The sovereign choice of Jesus in John 15:16 is not a choice of some out of the mass of humanity to receive eternal life, but rather, the choice of some out of all His followers and disciples to have a deeper fellowship with Him so that they might serve Him and become more productive followers.

I think that is what I was trying to say. My concern was the somewhat heated discussion between Preacher and Shrume.

I was trying to suggest that Scripture Itself offers a reconciliation.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think Spurgeon did believe in limited atonement

Spurgeon unequivocally rejected the theological consequences of the latter:


We do not believe that Christ made any effectual atonement for those who are forever damned; we dare not think that the blood of Christ was ever shed with the intention of saving those whom God foreknew never could be saved, and some of whom were even in Hell when Christ, according to some men’s account, died to save them. [SUP][1][/SUP]


C.H. Spurgeon on Limited Atonement | ReasonableTheology.org

Possibly. But Spurgeon did not preach that only the elect will be saved. That is evident from his sermons. The fact of the matter is that Calvinism opposes the true Gospel, therefore it is "another gospel".

 

[UnderGrace]

We have there what we call in the law.... "irreconcilable differences"

Hopefully is will not get too heated.

I think that is what I was trying to say. My concern was the somewhat heated discussion between Preacher and Shrume.

I was trying to suggest that Scripture Itself offers a reconciliation.

 

[preacher4truth]

I think that is what I was trying to say. My concern was the somewhat heated discussion between Preacher and Shrume.

I was trying to suggest that Scripture Itself offers a reconciliation.

Sorry, but UG is incorrect as per usual.

And so are you.

Nothing she stated was exegetical but was rather emotional and purely subjective. Therefore it is unbiblical, rejects the meaning of the text, and you've agreed to it.

 

[Desertsrose]

Because of a recent conversation I thought it might be interesting to post this thread.Based on my understanding [or perhaps misunderstanding] of Church history I have come to recognize 4 major doctrinal distinctives that differentiate the denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings from those denominations founded on Reformation teachings.I am not looking to offend anyone; I'm looking to confirm or correct my understanding [or lack thereof]!1) Believer's baptism by immersion not required for Salvation2) Eternal security of the believer3) rejection of literal trans-substantiation4) congregational government of the churchThose denominations founded on pre-Reformation teachings include but are not limited to:The Christian Church, The Baptists, Christian Missionary Alliance, Evangelical Free, Mennonite, In Faith, & Mission Covenant.

Hi Marc,


I'm just curious as to when these reformed beliefs began; what century? Earlier that Calvin and Luther, correct?


Thanks!

 

[MarcR]

I think Spurgeon did believe in limited atonement

Spurgeon unequivocally rejected the theological consequences of the latter:


We do not believe that Christ made any effectual atonement for those who are forever damned; we dare not think that the blood of Christ was ever shed with the intention of saving those whom God foreknew never could be saved, and some of whom were even in Hell when Christ, according to some men’s account, died to save them. [SUP][1][/SUP]


C.H. Spurgeon on Limited Atonement | ReasonableTheology.org

I have a great deal of respect for C.H. Spurgeon. He was mightily used by God.

I have a Higher regard for Scripture; and have the necessary linguistic skills to interpret it for myself.

Mr. Spurgeon's position has to ignore the first two Scriptures that I cited. I don't choose to do that.

 

[notuptome]

sigh

If Jesus died for the sins of the entire world and He did then why are not all saved? Fair question and answered in scripture so God wants us to know.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Additionally Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem representing the elect among the nations. Hmm.

The blood of Christ is wholly sufficient but it is only efficacious to those who choose to receive it. The choice is mandated because of Adam receiving the knowledge of good and evil. Man has the ability to choose because God gave it to man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger