Kosmos. I agree kosmos means world. But world, or whole world, should not mean 'everybody whoever lived' either.
REFORMED?
- Thread starter MarcR
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Kosmos. I agree kosmos means world. But world, or whole world, should not mean 'everybody whoever lived' either.
What did Jesus teach in John 6:63?
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all."
It cannot be more clear. In this our LORD is perfectly refuting decisional and choice salvation, and there are more texts which do the same, yet we are being called as lost, heretics &c because we believe salvation to be none of us as Christ shows here.
He also shows more of this in the passage and some turn from Him and follow Him no more because they are offended that they cannot in their flesh and effort, decision, choosing or will come to God! Note John 6:66.
The context of the text is about receiving eternal life, so it is not out of context or misused.
Yet, we still have those today, and here, teaching the opposite of this, that they did something, namely chose, which denies the Words of Christ. It is an unbiblical position.
Here's a blog I wrote where I addressed John 3:16 and the usage of the word 'world'...
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” [John 3:16 NASB]
Ppl who hold to universal atonement look at this verse and see the word ‘world’ and conflate it to mean ‘everybody whoever lived’. But that is not what the word ‘world’ means. The Greek word used is ‘kosmos’, which means the entire earth, but not ‘everybody whoever lived’. John 1:10 states it like this “He was in the world, and theworld was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” So, the word ‘world’ used in that verse can not mean ‘everybody whoever lived’, seeing this was in reference to His coming in the flesh. And at that time, He never traveled outside of the middle east. So those who were alive in places like China, Russia, North and South America, the Hawaiian islands, Japan, Vietnam, North and South Korea, &c, did not know anything about His coming in the flesh. So, there’s no way you can fit ‘everybody who ever lived’, or even ‘everybody who was alive at that time’ into the word ‘world’. It just will not fit.
When you approach the scriptures, you have to do so with God’s attributes in view. Two of His attributes I will use here are His immutability and love. We can read so that by twounchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.[Hebrews 6:18] Unchangeable in that verse is also used as immutable in other translations. Also, God’s love is an everlasting love, as He told Jeremiah The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.[Jeremiah 31:3] Now, with these two attributes in mind, how can God be immutable, be unchangeable, and then turn around and look to those who died in their sins and cast them headlong into eternal torment, if He loved them? If He loves them eternally and He is unchangeable, then He is loving ppl who are being eternally tormented for their sins. I want no part of that love whatsoever. Remember, His love is everlasting, and He is unchangeable. That is why I, and also the bible, aver His love is not for all mankind, but for those He chose from before the foundation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4]
Romans 9 shows that there are vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. Here we can see the goats and the sheep. The sheep are the vessels of mercy and the goats the vessels of wrath. God is patient with the vessels of wrath, withholding His divine judgment upon His creation until His last sheep has been added to the fold.
Its funny how ppl will focus on John 3:16, but they lose sight of “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”[John 3:36] So, God does love the ‘world’, as John 3:16 plainly states, but that does not mean ‘everybody whoever lived’. If so, then God is not unchangeable. Because, He loved them up until they stand before Him and He pronounces them guilty, turns from loving them to hating them, and casting them into eternal torment.
So, dear reader, if God is unchangeable, and loved them He will cast into hell, are you willing to aver He loves them that are in an eternal hell? I will leave that decision up to you.
Last edited:
All are in the same boat when they are offered the good news - the gospel - Some believe what they hear some do not. Some reach the point of repentance through godly sorrow and are truly sorrowful for their life of sin, want to be cleansed by the blood of Christ so they turn from that, i.e. repent. They believe in the only begotten Son of God - they believe that Jesus died and God raised him from the dead - they are born again.
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides in him. (John 3:36) Being justified BY faith (belief) - we have access BY faith (belief) into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (paraphrased Rom. 5:1,2)
Nope, we are not focusing on what man has to do . . . Christ gave his life so that we who believe in him are considered righteous, justified and will be glorified. We had nothing to do with the plan of salvation, it was all God and it was procured through the death and resurrection of his Son. We only have to believe and trust in God's plan - the gospel.
I agree
In fact the word means 6 different things in 6 different contexts. That is why lexicons define words contextually.
it is also why I don't question your integrity I believe you actually believe you are defining it correctly.
However, all 4 of the most respected lexicographers agree it means humanity in 1Jn 2:2 & Jn 1:29
Sissy, you still haven't answered my questions.
Let me simplfy this. Not being snarky, but make my question simpler. I pray you don't take that as me being insulting, as that's not my intent whatsoever.
John and Roy hear the gospel and Roy believes and is saved. All things being equal, as both are just as spiritually dead as the other, why did Roy believe, but John didn't?
Let's look at God's immutability. If He loves everbody, and this love is everlasting, then this love will not cease for them even after casting them headlong into an eternal gehenna. I want nothing to do with that love at all.
Well, when we see it is God who quickens whoever He wills, we can know why Roy was saved.
Jesus died for all.
it has to be mixed with faith. dr michael brown breaks this down from da jewish perspective he is a jew himself. he said that in the torah u have national day of atonement sacrifice is made for all but still da people must humble themselves for it to be effective. same with Jesus, He died for all but it has to be mixed with faith. Acts 16:31
Leviticus 23:27-30 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
it has to be mixed with faith. dr michael brown breaks this down from da jewish perspective he is a jew himself. he said that in the torah u have national day of atonement sacrifice is made for all but still da people must humble themselves for it to be effective. same with Jesus, He died for all but it has to be mixed with faith. Acts 16:31
Leviticus 23:27-30 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.[John 5:21
It is God who gives life to whoever He wishes(wills). These then exercise faith & repentance and are saved. Faith & repentance are evidence of salvation, not the cause of it.
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,[Ephesians 1:19,20]
The faith it takes to save ppl is likened to the power it took to resurrect the Christ. Man does not possess this power, this faith.
Non-believers are without excuse. Their pride of life blinds them.Well, when we see it is God who quickens whoever He wills, we can know why Roy was saved.
That is why it is said, God gives grace to the humble.
I don't build doctrine on a single verse. Scripture must agree with scripture
Jn 5:20-23
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
KJV
This passage is not addressing how people come to Salvation it is establishing Jesus' authority.
Will God love ppl who will reside in hell? After they are cast into an eternal gehenna, does He still love them?
Exactly. Jesus has authority to give life to whoever He wishes(wills). Thanks for agreeing with me.
But in this authority, it is addressing how ppl come to salvation. Its all of God.
God desires all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Eternal life is granted to those who come to Him by faith.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Exactly. Jesus has authority to give life to whoever He wishes(wills). Thanks for agreeing with me.
But in this authority, it is addressing how ppl come to salvation. Its all of God.
This has been fun ; but, there are other threads I am also interested in.
Bye for now. If you like, we can continue another time.