Not By Works

PHart · Sep 23, 2017

His lights are not the ones that have to come on regarding the believer being holy...

"but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11 NASB)

" 10By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10 NASB)

"14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14 NASB)

'Sanctified' means 'holy'. In order, the verb tenses of 'sanctified' in the verses above are 'aorist', 'perfect', and 'present'. Being made holy simply means being cleansed and set apart for a holy purpose. The problem is we Christians keep dirtying up on the outside what God has made clean and set apart for a holy and noble purpose. But to think that we aren't holy and that we will continue to not be holy until the day we die is what is satanic.

He sees very clearly what the Bible says about us being holy. Can we see it? Better yet, are we going to start acting like, by faith, what God really has already made us?

PHart · Sep 23, 2017

We exist in a church that is presently rationalizing our continuance in the lie that we are what we were before we were saved. Once again we have to blame the leadership for this failure. They can't teach us anything they themselves don't know. They're just as ignorantly bound by the deceitful power of the flesh as we are. So they teach us to just accept it the way it is, and do right when it just happens that you do right. Besides, they say, "salvation is sooooo not of works, so what does it matter anyway towards our salvation, right", lol. But we should heed what Hebrews tells us will happen to the person who purposely and willfully continues in his sin (vs. struggling with his sin) after being sanctified by the blood of Christ. It's not good......and it lasts a really long, long time.

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NASB)

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

PHart said:

Today as I wrote about Jesus, it was very strange. My Lord, my friend, became very close.
So much of the argument here is about knowing Christ and being secure. But this is for many
the wrong way round, they want security without knowing.

It is like some relationships I have. When I meet the people after years apart I still know them,
and how they will behave. That is knowing someone and they being consistent. Others I know,
I know they will be erratic and they have no clue how I work or what is important to me.

In the Lords prayer we pray
"Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

If people do not know Gods will, desire and blessing, how can they pray this or know
what it means.

So we are not really discussing about faith and good works here, but about do we
personally know God, or have we just been introduced and still are kicking around at
the beginning and are not commited to the real walk.

Friendships can definitely be lost, and one can overthrow all that Gods holds dear.
Judas was very close and saw it all, from the grand stand. Yet he still threw in
the towel and sold out.

Some want to claim so much, they are secure and unmoved, nothing can touch them,
but those who talk about deeper realities are liars and frauds.

So arrogant are these speakers, they will invent sin and problems, turn righteousness
into evil, make testimonies statements of shame and disgrace, and try and create a
feeling of apostacy and rebuke around good God fearing followers of Christ.

I do not doubt many have had real encounters with the Lord, the question is now are they
honouring them or are they being turned into destructive forces to destroy the very church
which holds witness to Christ. An encounter with Jesus does not give anyone a platform or
special privilege, it actually puts greater responsibility on them to properly follow and honour
the King.

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

TruthTalk said:

This phrase here is confusing.
The easy believism version of faith is a A4 sheet of paper. It says you are the same immediately
after being born again as at any other point before the Lord comes back.

Sin is not an issue of judgement, and salvation is a done deal, with nothing to resolve.

So this whole theology is designed to be a drive in one course meal. Respond to the altar call,
thats all you need to do.

So can I or anyone who takes faith and theology seriously take such a statement with anything
else other than just propoganda and blowing dreams.

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

EG - the derider extrodinaire.

The danger of EG and followers is they have an agenda, to leave out most of scripture.
What they hate most is people who look into the word of God and bring out its truths,
because this upsets their taught theology that is not biblical.

You know their spirit, nothing negative about their teachers, their beliefs or sin that is
abounding in their lives. Only talk about Jesus, and how great He is to save us.

And when the brainwashing is this loose, getting a handle on what they actually believe
or follow is hard, because often they are not sure themselves. They "know" you are the
enemy, because you talk about certainty, knowing, walking, standards, morality, responsibility,
judgement, authority of scipture, heresy and apostacy, confrontation of sin, resolving sin and
victory.

So they have taken the heart out of faith and the gospel, and left only patting on the back.
In between them resting and holidays, it is a wonder they have any time for church, lol.

What is also ironic is they actually theologically do not agree with each other, but they
do share a common agenda, to hit the legalists as they call everyone else.

So expect persecution from such as these, because learning Gods ways from God is not
their spiritual walk.

TruthTalk · Sep 23, 2017

PHart said:

We are "Made Holy and Sanctified" by God through the one time sacrifice and shedding of blood of Jesus Christ. The gavel drops and God say's we are justified and sanctified once forever. Do we say okay I am made perfect so God please just take me to heaven I am already made perfect, no. Made Holy is every Christians position in Christ so that we can begin to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.Philippians2:12

Point: Sanctification is a pursuit. We are "Made Holy" but there is work to be done and that is our practice in Christ until we are made fully in the likeness of Jesus; Holy yes, to the fullness of Jesus,
not yet. We are "being made perfect" we are not in practice perfect "yet". If you think you have no sin the truth is not in you. If I am speaking out of place or misunderstand you please forgive me, "Perfect Yes/Fully Not Yet"......

"Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy." Rev22:11

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. John17:17

And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians1:6

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. 2Corinthians7:1

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1John1:8-10

TruthTalk · Sep 23, 2017

PHart said:

PHart, truly who does this, not in my Church, we are encouraging each other to be more like Christ. If you are "existing in a church where everybody continues to think that; "we are what we were before we were saved." Run don't walk to the nearest exit. Seriously do you attend a Church
and does it look like the one that you describe in your post; then you should leave and find
a Church that is a bible believing and a Holy Spirit filled congregation of true believers,
period.

Really Phart what church leadership teaches the thing's that you say they do, are you speaking to the entire "Body of Christ", the Church; you could not be more wrong.

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

TruthTalk said:

This is where confusion comes in in these discussions. Rather than listening to what people are
saying, accusations are flung around, extreme straw men created and then put on the speakers.
People cannot be bothered to read and think about what is actually being shared, so they dismiss
the people out of hand.

HG has introduced poison and lies, so that things easily get derailed and those who understand
the issues get picked on in an attempt to remove them from the discussion. It is quite a successful
approach if you have a hard heart and desire one goal, domination.

Most churches I know of teach general biblical theology and positions. What we have here on cc
is extremists which often are not taken seriously elsewhere but sound off here.

So if we can agree to walk in the Spirit and honour Gods word, amen.
What this thread was started on was the belief "evil" believers need to be identified and excluded
like a war against an illness. In truth the illness is these people and their mission. They hide their
true intentions under nice sounding statements, but at their core, will have a heretical turn, or
accusation, which changes its whole meaning from that which is imagined.

So the sermon on the mount is to be ignored, as a legalistic demonstration of the failure of the jews
to follow God and therefore need Christ. Now if you do not hold to this, amen, welcome brother.
I hate to get pedantic, but this is what I do for a living, analyse facts and determine solutions to
logical models. You cannot beat what Jesus is sharing or saying, but it is truly hard to take, and
often I myself have wondered at the balance between grace with our emotional disposition, and the
brutal reality of sinful behaviour leading to judgement.

God bless you

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

TruthTalk said:

Amen. Many who I have shared with on cc would not agree, and talk as if to have this as
a goal is the enemy.

It is strange to me, when I share about the desire to walk in Jesus's ways, why is it the
response is, how dare you preach you are sinless and we are sinners.

Another member admitted they were still a sinner, sinning, which negates this argument entirely.
The problem with most, which is one I saw as a teenager, is the emotional reality and relationships
as opposed to the idealistic language we use. This gap can often be vast, and almost deny the effect
of Jesus in peoples lives. I know in my life, being away I knew little of why I reacted in certain ways,
and wondering how and when this might change.

But when you face people with this dilemma, they tend to fold and deny it even exists.
I desire to develop a way of expressing this reality and bringing people into deeper emotional reality,
which is Gods heart. We are heirs of the Kingdom God, not heirs of a freak show, of broken disfunctional
people struggling to make sense of things and singing happy clappy songs.

Our church is linked to a ministry of this very work, discovering ones foundations, and letting the Lord
lead you through to His resolutions. People change, and what was once unknown becomes clearer and
release is often experienced.

VCO · Sep 23, 2017

PeterJens said:

OHHH MY, would you ever make a GOOD Democratic Politician. FLIP FLOPPING ON THE ISSUES ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Remember just a few days ago YOU mentioned in a lengthy post to me, all about the absolute NEED for Obedience; and I commented back to you, that I found it STRANGE that you could mention all of that without MENTIONING LOVE for Jesus Christ one time. AND SO NOW you Mention it, when before LOVE FOR HIM was NEVER MENTIONED by you, especially as motive for OBEDIENCE.

YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT A HUSBAND AND WIFE GETTING TO GENUINELY KNOWING EACH OTHER. My wife and I truly were melted into ONE PERSON, we knew each other so well. When she died, HALF OF ME DIED.

AND my deep intimate, LOVING, Relationship with JESUS CHRIST IS EVEN DEEPER AND STRONGER THAN MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY WIFE. THAT LOVE AND KNOWING HIM came IN ME the moment I was Born AGAIN, the night of my THIRD ATTEMPT at suicide in 1977. HE SAVED ME, I DID NOT SAVE ME. And just so you know, I do not use or teach Religious Language, NOR do I teach RELIGION. I TEACH AN INTIMATE, LOVING, PERSONAL, RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST AS LORD, MEANING MASTER. You on the other hand give us ever reason to suspect that you have never been Born Again, and therefore if that is true you do not KNOW HIM in your heart, and only know about Him.

YOU SAY, "But rather I am saying, Christ is more than you can imagine, trust Him and let go control
of how you feel and interact, step out in faith and let the Holy Spirit guide you."

Once again you are Flip, Flopping like Democratic Politician and repeating what we have been trying to tell you all along, which you rejected and ridiculed numerous times. I gave that CONTROL TO HIM the NIGHT HE SAVED ME after my third attempt at suicide, and that was the night of December 30, 1977 if I remember right; and the HOLY SPIRIT HAS BEEN GUIDING AND TEACHING ME EVER SINCE.

BillG · Sep 23, 2017

Time to say goodbye.

Love you all.

I pray the grace of God will fill you all.
Walk in that grace.

Remeber everyone that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus.
His love never fails, it will uphold you.

God is good, remember that.
He is for you and not against you.

Much love and grace from this simple man.

Bill

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

VCO said:

vco - You have a different emotional journey to me. Unfortunately I have got wrapped up in
conversations with a group who are very different to you and your experience.

I hope you do not try and judge people and their walk with Christ on whether a sentence
has the right balance of words or concepts. It is nice to have fellowship with believers who
accept one for who one is, and then go on to discover their experiences and depth of their
walk.

So my friend, sounds like you have a good open heart, and know the Lord well. Welcome
my friend, brother, and I would want to give you a hug. Love is core to everything, and
everything I share. Love is about righteousness, doing the right things, desiring not to
hurt but build up, and all we do is driven by our need and love of the Lord.

Now you sound a blessing, and a change from some other contributors.
Am I born again? Well as far as anyone can define such a thing, yes.
But after seeing how some respond and claim spiritual authority, until we meet the
Lord, we will never truly know.

God bless you.

UnderGrace · Sep 23, 2017

Where are you going?

BillG said:

Time to say goodbye.

Love you all.

I pray the grace of God will fill you all.
Walk in that grace.

Remeber everyone that God loves you as much as he loves Jesus.
His love never fails, it will uphold you.

God is good, remember that.
He is for you and not against you.

Much love and grace from this simple man.

Bill

VCO · Sep 23, 2017

gb9 said:

I see that a certain person has been posting here ( I have the person on ignore ). the main reason I placed this person on ignore, and I wanted to share with you new or maybe not here that much members- is this:

peterjens does not recognize the Biblical definitions of sin, these are missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. feel free to look that up if anyone wants to.

it is very easy to declare yourself sinless when YOU define what sin is and not use the Biblical version.

Yeah, we found out that he is like that.

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

Stories speak a thousand words.
Jesus loves stories because they encapsulate ideas and contexts.
The problem is you need to include them all.

Do you know how long it takes to know someone? Maybe 3 years.

How long do some get on cc? Two lines.
So learn how to be cautious. Of what value is a hurt person when compared to a good friend.
How many good friends do you have? Maybe you need some. Maybe it would help you see
this is just a few lines on a screen, which may become more, but only with respect and love.

Being told I am a liar after stating true things in a few lines is not going to wing it.
It is not even Christian, not close at all. So for people who wish respect and a place, why would
they behave like this unless their agenda is actually division and condescension.

It got so old, I forget they hold themselves in high regard. I am just bemused.
When I am then satanic, nothing more needs to be shared. Spiritual divides like that are too great,
and fear of blasphemy is missing, which says more than you think. God is always after people with
good hearts, and most of this is seeing the best in others. Often this can pull us through when we are wrong
and Christ was right. So always be cautious, be berean God bless you.

One of our easiest failures is that feeling of arriving, when it is all falling apart.

PeterJens · Sep 23, 2017

VCO said:

vco - My definition of sin is not doing Gods will.
The best way this is expressed is through the law.
Please show me where I am wrong. Gb9 is accusing me of a fundamental failure
but with no example. As you agree with him, tell me what you mean from scripture.

By the way adding to scripture does not count. So saying Jesus asked us to be
perfect, does not wash, or anything not of faith is sin, or not doing something good
is sin.

These are subjective moral outlooks, which are as varied as believers.
Talking about breaking the 10 commandments, a good starting place.

But the childish attempts at slander are old, and anger and calling thing taught in
scripture lies is sinful and wrong.

What is tiring is the sinless perfection argument, and works. It gets old, because
again this is false from angry people who hate. And futility like this never works
It just blinds the soul. God bless you, May Jesus love and acceptance shine in
your hearts. This is life to all of us, for He is our salvation, God made man.

VCO · Sep 23, 2017

PeterJens said:

Amazing, go back and reread some of your past posts, and you sounded exactly the opposite in many of them, than you are trying to sound now.

We will be watching to see what kind of fruit you produce. When you are TRULY BORN AGAIN, you will KNOW IT, and in time we CAN KNOW IT too, by the fruit you produce. My human spirit is eternally alive in me and hungers for the WORD now, where before Bible Teaching was nothing but boring to me. However, know that I was raised from childhood on, in a Church that NEVER taught Born Again. They even said that the churches telling people they needed to confess sin and repent of sin, and receive JESUS CHRIST as LORD and Master, were commanding them to participate in Works Righteousness. Thus I only KNEW ABOUT JESUS, and NEVER really KNEW HIM, until HE broke me with Tremendous Waves after Waves of GUILT over my utter sinfulness, when I was 29 years old. Now that I think back on it, that night after my third attempt at suicide, I was literally doing what the Elders and Pastors in the denomination that I was raised in, had told me was an example of the false doctrine of works righteousness. What my old church leaders did not realize is it was not a prayer coming out of what lies between my ears, but a PRAYER the HOLY SPIRIT gave me and it came from my HEART. ALL OF IT, the deep mourning over my sins, confessing and repenting of my sinful lifestyle, the LOVE for CHRIST, and the willing, complete SURRENDER to JESUS CHRIST, was ALL put in my heart by the Holy Spirit. NONE of it was works righteousness.

SO YES after I was Born Again, I was eager to become involved in a BIBLE TEACHING CHURCH, instead of the denomination that was primarily based on ritualism. YES that first Bible Teaching Church taught Born Again frequently. From that day on, I always sought out the Best BIBLE TEACHING Church that I could find, whenever I moved; where the Sermons were always about one hour long. He told Peter three times to FEED MY SHEEP, which I understood meant to TEACH THEM THE WORD OF GOD, expositing it so that the Congregation knows what it means and how it applies to our lives. THEREFORE, I figured it was GOD's WILL that the TEACHING OF THE WORD, should dominate the Worship Service.

Something else, that tells me LOUD AND CLEAR that Holy Spirit is STILL working on my Heart, is HIS Hymns that focus on the Great Price HE PAID for our sins, bring an abundance of TEARS to my eyes, every time we sing them in Church, and even while watching the following video, and many others. As far as I am concerned, that night of my last attempt at suicide (in the most vivid dream I ever had), I was at the foot of the Cross, and watching another one pound weight being hung on His arms for each and every sin I had ever committed, and there were so many. I saw the Nails through His wrists and no one had ever taught me that the Jews considered the wrists to be part of the hand. I saw the blood drip from those wrists, as I was on my knees lifting my arms to HIM crying out for forgiveness, and as those multiple blood drops splashed on my forearms, I FELT THE WARMTH OF THAT BLOOD, and I felt the forgiveness. I usually do not mention that part of my Testimony, but somehow I think this time it is important. Thus singing about His time on that cross, dying for my sins, hits me very deeply. Those times when I am crying, I am singing directly to my LORD, and not just joining in with what the Congregation is doing. It is a very special time for me with my LORD.

[video=youtube;kC59rgmcu34]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC59rgmcu34[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxeVrMC1qVY

VCO · Sep 23, 2017

Listen to the testimony of this Hip Hop Artist:

[video=youtube;xv1ZenQ-XWY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1ZenQ-XWY[/video]

VCO · Sep 23, 2017

PeterJens said:

Romans 14:23 (ESV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith.
For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

James 4:16-17 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point
is guilty of breaking all of it.

Romans 7:24 (NRSV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

1 Timothy 1:15-16 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into
the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show
all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

MY POINT IS THERE ARE NO MEN WHO DO NOT SIN, THEREFORE EVERY ONE OF US IS GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAWS; AND ALL OF US DESPERATELY NEED A LORD AND SAVIOR. Like I used to tell the inmates in my Chapel Services, "The worst mass murderer on Death Row, is not a worse sinner than us; we are as BAD AS HIM in God's sight."

BillG · Sep 24, 2017

UnderGrace said:

Taking a step back from the forum

Not By Works

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