Church an unknown mystery.

[Locutus]

No response from our Naybor...

Who is my naybor?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Christ came down to usher in His earthly kingdom, but those jews said "no thanks". Well, since He was already in Jerusalem, He thought He might as well die for some gentiles. No need wasting a good trip.

#sarcasmoff

 

[Willie-T]

its not a mystery in my bible. but maybe after u are done translating the texas deceptus translation as u said, it will be a mystery

maybe some seminaries will push it.

Texas Deceptus.... Sharp! That would fit right into Dallas.

 

[Muzungu256]

ayyyy locutus is back!!!!! the big dog has returned

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul called the church a mystery, Grace was never a mystery, How it would come about was a mystery, God had to have it be a mystery, or satan never would have helped send Christ to the cross. He would hae done everything to stop it.

Just another thread trying to expose people who are against dispensationalism with false truths about what it realty is. Nothing to see here folks.

 

[phil36]

Paul called the church a mystery, Grace was never a mystery, How it would come about was a mystery, God had to have it be a mystery, or satan never would have helped send Christ to the cross. He would hae done everything to stop it.

Just another thread trying to expose people who are against dispensationalism with false truths about what it realty is. Nothing to see here folks.

God has to hide things incase Satan thwarts his plan? I think you may have mistyped your post ET. Because a God who has to hide His plan incase it is thwarted by his enemy is not an all powerful being who is actually in control past, present or future. Nor if your view is correct he cannot have a definite plan in redemptive history.

The church has always existed..ekklesia. The Hebrews were ekklesia.. the mystery was only in that the Jews did not understand the inbreaking of the Kingdom by their Messiah (with all that entails).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

"Basic" dispensational theology is that the church was unknown in the scriptures - this idea is expressed by Dwight Pentecost in his book "Things to come" - Pentecost was a Distinguished Professor of Bible Exposition, Emeritus, at the Dallas Theological Seminary.

This is an excerpt from his book in brown text:

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory [Col. 1:24-27].

In this passage the apostle Paul very clearly calls the divine program developed in the church a mystery, something which was not formerly revealed, and therefore unknown, but now is made known by God. With this teaching other Scripture is in agreement (Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:5-9).

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 2547-2551). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

In the above he notes Rom 16:25-26 in his appeal to the church being an unrevealed mystery but it looks to me like he has ignored the full import of what Paul wrote:

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past

Rom 16:26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

In the above Paul is stating what is now manifested is according to "Scriptures of the prophets".

So, you are saying that the revelation Paul received from Jesus Christ, "according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] which was kept secret since the world began, But is now made manifest"; "how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery [secret] . . which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit"; even the mystery [secret] which has been hid from ages and from generations", was not true?

The question is how can something according to Pentecost that "something which was not formerly revealed" be said according to Paul to be "by the Scriptures of the prophets"?

1 Pet 1:19 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

1 Pet 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1 Pet 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

In the above Peter is affirming that prophets prophesied of the grace given to the church and the gospel message, so the dispensational claim of "unknown" by Dwight Pentecost is falsified.

"The question is how can something according to Pentecost that "something which was not formerly revealed" be said according to Paul to be "by the Scriptures of the prophets"?"
"something according to Pentecost"????? Wouldn't it be according to Paul, who wrote by revelation of Jesus Christ that something was hid, was kept secret from ages and from generations until "now" . . . Why would God say something was hid, was kept secret from ages and from generations until "now" if it was revealed before?

"by the scriptures of the prophets" . . . "revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets" . . . Were there not also apostles and prophets in the NT that would have received NEW revelation? [Eph. 4:11]

What did the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come "inquire and search for diligently"? Searching out the manner of time between the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow . . . .

The Spirit of the LORD GOD is upon me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God . . . [Isaiah 61:1,2] Jesus quoted this in Luke 4:18,19 but he stopped reading and closed the book before reading "and the day of vengeance of our God" . . . Wonder why? There is time period in between the "acceptable year of the LORD" "and the day of vengeance of our God". This time period is "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" [Luke 21:24; Romans 11:25] which was kept secret from ages and from generations.

 

[preacher4truth]

Paul called the church a mystery, Grace was never a mystery, How it would come about was a mystery, God had to have it be a mystery, or satan never would have helped send Christ to the cross. He would hae done everything to stop it.

Just another thread trying to expose people who are against dispensationalism with false truths about what it realty is. Nothing to see here folks.

So, let me get this straight, all powerful God had to hide things from the devil, or the devil would have stopped God's decreed plan and will?

Hmmm, seems perfectly clear to me that no one can stop God's hand, or say to Him what are you doing. That would fall under "all powerful" or what we rightly call "omnipotence."

As someone who has personally claimed hours and years on the study of God, how is it that you hold to so much fundamental error on the person of God? What works have you read on the attributes of God, if any?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So, let me get this straight, all powerful God had to hide things from the devil, or the devil would have stopped God's decreed plan and will?

Hmmm, seems perfectly clear to me that no one can stop God's hand, or say to Him what are you doing. That would fall under "all powerful" or what we rightly call "omnipotence."

As someone who has personally claimed hours and years on the study of God, how is it that you hold to so much fundamental error on the person of God? What works have you read on the attributes of God, if any?

Can I ask what meaning would you give to this verse?

But we speak wisdom among them that are perfect yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nothing: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery [center ref. Romans 16:25], even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[IamWhoIam]

It gets worse mon - in the following he claims that John the Baptist failed:

Dwight Pentecost in brown text:

Some time before the Transfiguration, John the Baptist, who was in prison, sent two of his disciples to ask the Lord Jesus whether He was the Messiah or whether they were to look for another. Our Lord sent a message back to John drawing attention to His miraculous ministry as sufficient testimony that He was the One foretold by the prophets, and then He told the multitudes of John’s greatness, and that the Baptist was indeed the Messenger of whom Malachi spoke (Mal. 3:1). And then added: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come” (Matt. 11:12, 14).

What did He mean? He was telling them this: that if Israel had been ready and willing to receive Him then, He would have established the Kingdom which He offered them, and that in that event, John’s ministry would have been the fulfilment of the prophetic Elijah.

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5639-5642). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Inasmuch as John could not have fulfilled the prophecies because Israel rejected the offered kingdom, it does not seem possible to assert that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 has been fulfilled. The fact that John could have fulfilled it, even though he was not personally Elijah, seems to indicate that Elijah need not come personally to fulfill the prophecies.

During the period preceding the second advent, and prior to the outpouring of judgments upon the earth, there will be a ministry by one in the spirit and power of Elijah, which will fulfill this prophecy.

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5652-5655). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The above is quoted by an angel in regards to John, but ol' Dwight thinks nothing of throwing out John with the bath water:

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So either John came to to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children or he didn't, if he didn't then he failed.

I think I'll take the angel's word over ol' Dwight's.

When John's deciples came to him and spoke of all the things Jesus was doing, thus John was in observance not prison. been a long long mistranslation of the phrase,,
words in the ancient was used differently depending on context.

mishmar: place of confinement, jail, prison, guard, watch, observance​

Original Word: מִשְׁמָר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: mishmar
Phonetic Spelling: (mish-mawr')
Short Definition: guard

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It gets worse mon - in the following he claims that John the Baptist failed:

Dwight Pentecost in brown text:

Some time before the Transfiguration, John the Baptist, who was in prison, sent two of his disciples to ask the Lord Jesus whether He was the Messiah or whether they were to look for another. Our Lord sent a message back to John drawing attention to His miraculous ministry as sufficient testimony that He was the One foretold by the prophets, and then He told the multitudes of John’s greatness, and that the Baptist was indeed the Messenger of whom Malachi spoke (Mal. 3:1). And then added: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come” (Matt. 11:12, 14).

What did He mean? He was telling them this: that if Israel had been ready and willing to receive Him then, He would have established the Kingdom which He offered them, and that in that event, John’s ministry would have been the fulfilment of the prophetic Elijah.

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5639-5642). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Inasmuch as John could not have fulfilled the prophecies because Israel rejected the offered kingdom, it does not seem possible to assert that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 has been fulfilled. The fact that John could have fulfilled it, even though he was not personally Elijah, seems to indicate that Elijah need not come personally to fulfill the prophecies.

During the period preceding the second advent, and prior to the outpouring of judgments upon the earth, there will be a ministry by one in the spirit and power of Elijah, which will fulfill this prophecy.

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 5652-5655). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The above is quoted by an angel in regards to John, but ol' Dwight thinks nothing of throwing out John with the bath water:

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So either John came to to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children or he didn't, if he didn't then he failed.

I think I'll take the angel's word over ol' Dwight's.

John did turn the hearts of the fathers to the children according to Luke 1:17 . . .

The above is quoted by an angel in regards to John:

But what is the full prophecy in Malachi 4:5 . . . Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the LORD - Is this the time period that John proclaimed came to bear witness of the light?

Not debating anything here - just wondering. The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" - when we look at other places where "day of the Lord" is used - this phrase seems to mean in the day of judgement, i.e. judgement day . . .

 

[Muzungu256]

Can I ask what meaning would you give to this verse?

But we speak wisdom among them that are perfect yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nothing: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery [center ref. Romans 16:25], even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

wow its true....... nice verse.

 

[IamWhoIam]

John did turn the hearts of the fathers to the children according to Luke 1:17 . . .

The above is quoted by an angel in regards to John:

But what is the full prophecy in Malachi 4:5 . . . Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the LORD - Is this the time period that John proclaimed came to bear witness of the light?

Not debating anything here - just wondering. The "great and dreadful day of the Lord" - when we look at other places where "day of the Lord" is used - this phrase seems to mean in the day of judgement, i.e. judgement day . . .

another of those mistranslated word phrase,

the word Yare

1. awe of, be awed
2. to fear, reverence, honour, respect

 

[joefizz]

No response from our Naybor...

Who is my naybor?

The person who cares for you when you are in need,even if they be a stranger just as the good Samaritan was.

 

[OneFaith]

"Basic" dispensational theology is that the church was unknown in the scriptures - this idea is expressed by Dwight Pentecost in his book "Things to come" - Pentecost was a Distinguished Professor of Bible Exposition, Emeritus, at the Dallas Theological Seminary.

This is an excerpt from his book in brown text:

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory [Col. 1:24-27].

In this passage the apostle Paul very clearly calls the divine program developed in the church a mystery, something which was not formerly revealed, and therefore unknown, but now is made known by God. With this teaching other Scripture is in agreement (Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:5-9).

Pentecost, J. Dwight. Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Kindle Locations 2547-2551). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

In the above he notes Rom 16:25-26 in his appeal to the church being an unrevealed mystery but it looks to me like he has ignored the full import of what Paul wrote:

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past

Rom 16:26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

In the above Paul is stating what is now manifested is according to "Scriptures of the prophets".

The question is how can something according to Pentecost that "something which was not formerly revealed" be said according to Paul to be "by the Scriptures of the prophets"?

1 Pet 1:19 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

1 Pet 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1 Pet 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

In the above Peter is affirming that prophets prophesied of the grace given to the church and the gospel message, so the dispensational claim of "unknown" by Dwight Pentecost is falsified.

The answer to this is in the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. The old scriptures contained the puzzle pieces, but the big picture was not put together and revealed until Christ established His church. The Ethiopian was reading the old scriptures (seeing the puzzle pieces) about the slaughtered lamb, and he asked Philip what it meant (it was a mystery to him).

Philip started at that verse to reveal to him the mystery of “Christ in You the hope of glory”- which is teaching the gospel- which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He also taught him how to obey the gospel (baptism- die to self, bury old sinful self, be raised to newness of life)- for he stopped and said “Look, there is much water, what prevents me from being baptized?”

See they had the puzzle pieces in the Old Testament, they just didn’t know how to put them together- that the lamb represented Christ, and ways of being saved through water, such as the parting of the sea, or Noah’s ark, were physical representations of the real (spiritual) way to be revealed in Christ. “These were a shadow of things to come, the reality however is found in Christ.”

They couldn't see the whole picture back then, even though they had the pieces (scriptures). But now we have the complete Word of God, and the mystery has been revealed.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

another of those mistranslated word phrase,

the word Yare

1. awe of, be awed
2. to fear, reverence, honour, respect

Yes, dreadful means to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared; to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe; to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe. What I really was asking about is "the day of the LORD" phrase when compared to all usages of that phrase - it usually refers to the day the Lord returns in judgment.

Some examples: Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Amos 5:18,20 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. . . . Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
1 Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

You see how that phrase is used?

 

[IamWhoIam]

Yes, dreadful means to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared; to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe; to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe. What I really was asking about is "the day of the LORD" phrase when compared to all usages of that phrase - it usually refers to the day the Lord returns in judgment.

Some examples: Ezekiel 13:5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Amos 5:18,20 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. . . . Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
1 Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

You see how that phrase is used?

O I see, well not every account actually uses the day of Lord though the Lord was present in that day.

the day the world flooded.
the day God came to Moses on mount Sinai. And Moses brought down the Ten Commandments.
the day at the 6 hour, darkness fell upon the land.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

O I see, well not every account actually uses the day of Lord though the Lord was present in that day.

the day the world flooded.
the day God came to Moses on mount Sinai. And Moses brought down the Ten Commandments.
the day at the 6 hour, darkness fell upon the land.

It's all okay! But as I said - I was only concerned with the phrase "day of the LORD" - the scripture in which that exact phrase is used.

 

[IamWhoIam]

It's all okay! But as I said - I was only concerned with the phrase "day of the LORD" - the scripture in which that exact phrase is used.

then I apologize, disregard anything that I've said,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God has to hide things incase Satan thwarts his plan? I think you may have mistyped your post ET. Because a God who has to hide His plan incase it is thwarted by his enemy is not an all powerful being who is actually in control past, present or future. Nor if your view is correct he cannot have a definite plan in redemptive history.

The church has always existed..ekklesia. The Hebrews were ekklesia.. the mystery was only in that the Jews did not understand the inbreaking of the Kingdom by their Messiah (with all that entails).

lol, ok, explain to me how if satan knew Jesus was the suffering servant spoken of in ps 52 and other places. Why satan would enter Judah's and get him to betray christ, and in essence cause the very thing that sealed satans fate. (Which God then used to destroy Satan lie, and make sure there would never be a rebellion for all eternity) and as Colossians says, he disarmed the powers that be, by making a public spectacle of them.

That is what Gods plan was to begin with.

this should be good.