Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Seriously, you having to believe doesn't make the gospel all about you. God does not do our believing for us. He provides the faith to believe, which is why we can not boast, but he does not do our believing for us. We're not robots.

See, look...

"the gospel, for it (the gospel) is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16 NASB)

The power of salvation is in the gospel not in your believing, but that hardly makes it so you do not have to believe. Paul said it is the power of salvation for those who believe. That's the part you and I do in salvation. Believing is how you access the power of salvation that does the saving.

No, But saying you mut continue to believe or be lost. is YOU doing your own believing. Your trusting on your own faith, and not God to give you reason to keep having faith.

 

[Amberlight]

Pancakes anyone ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We can plainly see in Paul's words the power of salvation is the gospel of salvation itself, but a power that only belongs to those who believe. But you folks are making it out to be that if we do the believing then that's the power of salvation and therefore, a false gospel. How absurd.

The power to be saved is in the gospel of salvation itself, not in the believing that accesses that salvation. So don't be afraid to be the one doing the believing--that's not where the power of salvation lies. And besides, you can't boast in your believing because you can't believe without God's gracious gift of faith so you can trust/believe the gospel, and because the power is all in the gospel of salvation itself, not in the believing.



Dead men can believe the gospel because God testifies to them through the Holy Spirit speaking the Word of Faith to them that the gospel is true. And because of that visitation of faith through the Holy Spirit dead men can then trust and believe and receive the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of that believing and be saved. If this is new to you (which it probably is) read 1 John 5:5-12. If you want to take apart that portion of scripture in discussion we can.




Is your understanding of predestination that God made you someone who can and will believe the gospel? If so, then we are robots in your theology. That's a meaningless gospel. Big whoop.....God pre-programmed us to choose Him apart from our own desire and will to do so, having assigned to us the desire to choose Him apart from any consideration of whether or not we would want to choose Him. That's not very glorious. But it is glorious when God can win over people by his love to choose Him.

Even demons believe yet tremble. Belief will never save anyone. Only true saving faith will. Maybe that's your problem. You do not understand the difference between mental agreement (belief) and saving faith?

Faith works, if faith fails to work, it was never faith to begin with, it was dead. It was mere belief

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Me too. It's an absurd doctrine. But that is what we are being told in this thread. They're telling us that is what happens in salvation or else we would be trying to earn our own salvation if we did the believing, as if believing was a work of the damnable works gospel.

We don't have to worry about OUR believing somehow being a self righteous work because, 1) the power of salvation is in the gospel of forgiveness itself, not in the believing (believing only accesses the power of salvation), and 2) Paul plainly said believing is in complete and utter contrast to the works that can not justify.

The bottom line is, we are made righteous and saved because God forgave us, not because we made ourselves righteous by doing righteous things. But that hardly means we do not do anything ourselves to lay hold of that which makes us righteous.

There is no boast in us laying hold of salvation through our believing so as to make that laying hold of salvation a damnable work of self righteousness. The boast is in the fact that the power of salvation is contained in the gospel itself. That's why no man can boast...not even in his believing.

now your not being honest. And your on the verge of slander.

No one says believing is a work. Everyone is saying if we have to MAINTAIN our salvation, then we are trying to earn it.

Please. If your not going to be honest and discuss things based on facts of what people are saying, then why are you here?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pancakes anyone ?

Good old Phart is serving a lot this morning, But it is making me sick do you have better ones?

 

[Amberlight]

Sorry kind of ate them all already had some syrup and ice-cream with them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry kind of ate them all already had some syrup and ice-cream with them

Good for you! Hope you enjoyed them

 

[gb9]

now your not being honest. And your on the verge of slander.

No one says believing is a work. Everyone is saying if we have to MAINTAIN our salvation, then we are trying to earn it.

Please. If your not going to be honest and discuss things based on facts of what people are saying, then why are you here?

i have adopted a new personal policy- not to try to regularly speak to people who refuse to dialog, just repeat the same talking points over and over. I think that some do just want to argue. I have agreed with peter, and he argued with the agreement.

if some think that they are so right, and you, I dcon, t.t. and others are so wrong, then why will they not give straight answers and engage in q and a dialog??

 

[TruthTalk]

Lol, no.
"You only get one chance", to abandon faith and trust in the blood of Christ. "You are not allowed to come back to repentance", once he turns you over to your willingly, stubborn, contemptuous return to the world in unbelief. The key here being 'unbelief', not simply struggling with sin within one's faith and trust in Christ.

To the point you no longer care about and seek the forgiveness of God. And you have refused all efforts by God to bring you back, and he has forever turned you over to your unbelief without remedy.

Doubt is not unbelief. No longer trusting in, or caring about the forgiveness of God in Christ is unbelief.

EG says that. But don't be surprised if he does a flip flop and tries to make it sound like he wasn't trying to say that. We'll see. Not sure, but dcon might believe that too. He hasn't made that clear.

Of course he's able. THAT'S WHY WE ARE TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE AND TRUST IN HIM TO DO THAT. You do not have the benefit of anything that you do not believe in. THat's why we are exhorted to keep believing. I know your Calvinist beliefs keep you from thinking that a believer can stop belieiving (because God MADE you a believer) but that does not explain all the exhortations and warnings in the Bible to the believer to keep believing and not give up.

My doctrine is actually MORE secure than yours. In my doctrine the believer is eternally secure as long as he's in Christ through his faith in Christ. In your doctrine you can't know that you're truly saved unless you persevere to the end, showing yourself to be a true believer.

In your doctrine there is always the potential of tomorrow's failure to show that all the believing you did up to then was not real believing at all. And the end of persevering in the faith is not until the Day of Christ, so you can't know that you had real saving faith until you leave this world. And that's supposed to be the ultimate doctrine of security and assurance in Christ? Really? In my doctrine, you are in fact very saved and very secure as long as you are presently believing. If you keep believing, with God's help of course, you have nothing to worry about. That's what real security in Christ is all about.

Amen. That's why we should continue to believe. God is able to deliver those who believe in him through the coming Judgment of fire. If you stop believing you will be burned up in the coming cleansing of fire, not saved through it. So keep believing, folks. Your confidence is well placed. God is able to deliver you to the kingdom safely and surely. "Just keep believing" in his power to do that.

Quote: Just "keep believing" in his power to do that. (You put the spot light on you and not God, counterfeit gospel).

Okay and thank you for your honest response. You place the ability to keep a Christian saved on "keep believing." I believe it is God who keeps the Christian saved and secure; and it is the Holy Spirit who has sealed each true born again believer for the day of redemption and that seal can never be broken. If you walk away from God's everlasting salvation you were never truly saved at all.

God is a God of second chances, and you give the believer only one chance at salvation; If you were to preach this doom and gloom false gospel, of a God who has no power to save, and you leave our redemption up to, "if you keep believing" the entire congregation would stand up and leave.

The exhortations and warnings in the bible to fight the good fight and work out your salvation with fear and trembling are not about your, "keep believing false gospel." The encouragement and warnings and comfort of the scriptures is to keep God's children safe and away from counterfeit gospels like your's. It is all earthly wisdom that you speak and has not the power to save, But God Can.

 

[Muzungu256]

Maybe there is something missing here.

Jesus comes and knocks at the door of your house.
You run down, open the door, see it is Christ and slam it in His face.

Somehow this insult to the King of Kings is to be ignored and you as a spiritual,
free living, loving, redeemed being, have an eternal relationship with God where you
worship, love, obey and follow His every word?

But no you are not that person because the fruit would be openning the door and
embracing Christ.

Jesus said if your hand or eye causes you to sin, get rid of it, or you will be destroyed.

Do you grasp this is about eternal relationships, truth, purity, holiness, walking with the
creator?

It is not, it does not matter how sinfully you behave or how badly you muck up, no, it is, do
you really love Him and are you taking it seriously? It sounds to me like a lot of you want
your self emotional castles and expect God to take it all into eternity, as if this is acceptable.

Sorry guys, you never read the label on the tin. You must give up your life, your rights,
your self, and follow Him with no reservations.

Why on earth did you think Jesus takes in evil doers who stay in their mess?

now i know why u can afford to put so many requirements for salvation u see....... u dont even believe in hell. it all makes sense to me now........ i remember u said people put too much emphasis on Christ..... now we know. usually the people who preach most hell have easy salvation plan u see..... then the ones who dont believe in hell like jehovahs falsewitnesses usually have a hard salvation plan u see because they can afford it. no risk in their minds........

if what ur saying is true i wouldnt be worried about not existing u see.

 

[TruthTalk]

The one fatal mistake that Phart keeps making in his counterfeit gospel is; he keeps using the phrase "the power of salvation", over and over again. The bible never teaches his twisted idea of; It is, "the power of salvation. no, the bible teaches it is the, "Power of God for salvation" A counterfeit gospel = a counterfeit Christ.

 

[TruthTalk]

Even demons believe yet tremble. Belief will never save anyone. Only true saving faith will. Maybe that's your problem. You do not understand the difference between mental agreement (belief) and saving faith?

Faith works, if faith fails to work, it was never faith to begin with, it was dead. It was mere belief

Phart's counterfeit gospel will never save a single soul including his own and that is what is disturbing to me. His "keep believing" fake gospel has not the power to save. Faith in Jesus Christ is the wisdom and power of God to save; not Phart's "keep believing" nonsense.

Glad that nonsense is gone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i have adopted a new personal policy- not to try to regularly speak to people who refuse to dialog, just repeat the same talking points over and over. I think that some do just want to argue. I have agreed with peter, and he argued with the agreement.

if some think that they are so right, and you, I dcon, t.t. and others are so wrong, then why will they not give straight answers and engage in q and a dialog??

Peter will not agreee with you once you have apposed him, Even if you agree he will attack you. Thats why I put him on ignore. I have a few who preach fatalism/and they God is done with ISRAEL on ignore also. Some people just want to fight, and if it gets to the point they just continue to slander you by saying false things about you because they refuse to understand you. It is time to put an end to dialogue. I screwed up by sticking with peter too long, trying not to make that mistake again.

 

[joefizz]

Phart's counterfeit gospel will never save a single soul including his own and that is what is disturbing to me. His "keep believing" fake gospel has not the power to save. Faith in Jesus Christ is the wisdom and power of God to save; not Phart's "keep believing" nonsense.

Glad that nonsense is gone.

Reminds me of that song,"Don't stop believing",catchy as it is,that mindset doesn't save anyone only through Jesus are we saved,to receive salvation you accept Jesus as saviour and ask God to save your soul,sincerely and humbly,you don't simply say "I believe in Jesus"and that's all,You have to "Genuinely" Believe in and upon Jesus "And" have Faith that your soul will be saved through Jesus by God,not of works lest any man should boast,If you don't believe in and upon all of this,then you are not a "True believer"after becoming a "True believers in and upon Christ" there is no turning back just like with the song"I have decided to follow Jesus"You are either all for Jesus or not at all there is no,well now I'm a true believer,I must keep believing lest I no longer believe, that is pure "Nonsense" and "Fabrication" if you "can" stop believing then you never became a "True believer"'in the first place you were just putting on.

 

[BenFTW]

Phart's counterfeit gospel will never save a single soul including his own and that is what is disturbing to me. His "keep believing" fake gospel has not the power to save. Faith in Jesus Christ is the wisdom and power of God to save; not Phart's "keep believing" nonsense.

Glad that nonsense is gone.

I don't understand your issue with an encouragement to continue believing. Did not the apostle Paul speak to the Gentiles of being grafted in and to not follow after the Israelites in disbelief? He even said if they were not spared, take heed lest he (God) spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 New International Version (NIV)

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Belief is an important part of salvation, our righteousness is one of faith. Do we believe in the Gospel? Do we believe God's account of His Son? Do we believe that Jesus' blood is sufficient for the remission of our sins? Do we believe we were sinners deserving of death, yet by God's grace we have been saved through faith (made children of God)?

Belief and faith are essential components to salvation, both in eternity and now. Do we believe we are a new creation in Christ Jesus? Do we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God? Do we believe that God meets our needs? Do we believe the Lord protects us? This and more are things we must believe if we wish to have victory in this life.

As for eternity, I suppose we must echo Jesus' question. Who do you say that He is? Is He your Lord and Savior? Did He die for your sins and resurrect unto your justification? The Holy Spirit convicted you of these truths, sin, righteousness and judgement. Then you believed. Yet, consider the apostle's warnings. Consider the kindness and sternness of God.

 

[joefizz]

I don't understand your issue with an encouragement to continue believing. Did not the apostle Paul speak to the Gentiles of being grafted in and to not follow after the Israelites in disbelief? He even said if they were not spared, take heed lest he (God) spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 New International Version (NIV)

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Belief is an important part of salvation, our righteousness is one of faith. Do we believe in the Gospel? Do we believe God's account of His Son? Do we believe that Jesus' blood is sufficient for the remission of our sins? Do we believe we were sinners deserving of death, yet by God's grace we have been saved through faith (made children of God)?

Belief and faith are essential components to salvation, both in eternity and now. Do we believe we are a new creation in Christ Jesus? Do we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God? Do we believe that God meets our needs? Do we believe the Lord protects us? This and more are things we must believe if we wish to have victory in this life.

As for eternity, I suppose we must echo Jesus' question. Who do you say that He is? Is He your Lord and Savior? Did He die for your sins and resurrect unto your justification? The Holy Spirit convicted you of these truths, sin, righteousness and judgement. Then you believed. Yet, consider the apostle's warnings. Consider the kindness and sternness of God.

Well I can understand Truth Talk's reason,the point he was making is that Phart is implying that one can lose salvation from no longer believing upon God/Jesus,it's not an "Encouragement" the way Phart uses it,he makes it as if that a person who "Truly believes" would consider no longer believing,which is not possible,once you are in God's hand there is no leaving his hand,Encouragement to "keep the faith"is one thing but adding to God's word is another.

 

[VCO]

Seriously, you having to believe doesn't make the gospel all about you. God does not do our believing for us. He provides the faith to believe, which is why we can not boast, but he does not do our believing for us. We're not robots.

See, look...

"the gospel, for it (the gospel) is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16 NASB)

The power of salvation is in the gospel not in your believing, but that hardly makes it so you do not have to believe. Paul said it is the power of salvation for those who believe. That's the part you and I do in salvation. Believing is how you access the power of salvation that does the saving.

Maybe this will sink in, this time. I certainly pray so.

It is your wording that makes it an ERROR.

You say "HAVING TO BELIEVE", when JESUS SAYS "WILL BELIEVE".

John 13:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am ⌊He⌋.

John 17:20 (NRSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word,

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Romans 5:5 (NRSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.

Even your verse Rom. 1:16 above shows the word "believes" in the Greek is Present Tense, something that is always going on, in our hearts, AFTER we are BORN AGAIN.


Contuing to Believe is an ongoing Lifestyle empowered by the HOLY SPIRIT, Who is doing this through GOD's LOVE that He poured into one's heart and He will keep doing it. Are you not saying that the Work the Holy Spirit is doing in one's heart is LESS THAN PERFECT; when you say some Stop Believing? Those who STOP Believing, prove their belief was only in the intellect of their brain, and
NOT the Holy Spirit in their heart empowering them to continue to Believe.
It proves they NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN.


John 14:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


Even in the Old Testament, it says "WILL BELIEVE", implying something that is ongoing in a true believer.


Exodus 4:5 (CSBBible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "This will take place," he continued, "so that they will believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you."



You by saying "HAVING TO BELIEVE", puts the emphasis on SELF, which is ERROR; WHEN THE TRUTH IS: IF THEY HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS, HE WILL EMPOWER THEM TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE. THUS WILL BELIEVE is the correct terminology for a TRULY BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, and HAVING TO KEEP, refers to one mimicking Christianity in his or her brain.

 

[joefizz]

Maybe this will sink in, this time. I certainly pray so.

It is your wording that makes it an ERROR.

You say "HAVING TO BELIEVE", when JESUS SAYS "WILL BELIEVE".

John 13:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believethat I am ⌊He⌋.

John 17:20 (NRSV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word,

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

Romans 5:5 (NRSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.

Even your verse Rom. 1:16 above shows the word "believes" in the Greek is Present Tense, something that is always going on, in our hearts, AFTER we are BORN AGAIN.


Contuing to Believe is an ongoing Lifestyle empowered by the HOLY SPIRIT, Who is doing this through GOD's LOVE that He poured into one's heart and He will keep doing it. Are you not saying that the Work the Holy Spirit is doing in one's heart is LESS THAN PERFECT; when you say some Stop Believing? Those who STOP Believing, prove their belief was only in the intellect of their brain, and
NOT the Holy Spirit in their heart empowering them to continue to Believe.
It proves they NEVER WERE BORN AGAIN.


John 14:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.


Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


Even in the Old Testament, it says "WILL BELIEVE", implying something that is ongoing in a true believer.


Exodus 4:5 (CSBBible)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "This will take place," he continued, "so that they will believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you."



You by saying "HAVING TO BELIEVE", puts the emphasis on SELF, which is ERROR; WHEN THE TRUTH IS: IF THEY HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEIR HEARTS, HE WILL EMPOWER THEM TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE. THUS WILL BELIEVE is the correct terminology for a TRULY BORN AGAIN BELIEVER, and HAVING TO KEEP, refers to one mimicking Christianity in his or her brain.

Yes indeed,the holy spirit strengthens us in times when we are weak,so we need not manage our own belief once "Truly believing" by way of accepting Jesus as saviour,asking for our soul to be saved and receiving the holy spirit,if we left believing or worse yet salvation to ourselves then we would all be of unbelief instead of "True belief".

 

[BenFTW]

Well I can understand Truth Talk's reason,the point he was making is that Phart is implying that one can lose salvation from no longer believing upon God/Jesus,it's not an "Encouragement" the way Phart uses it,he makes it as if that a person who "Truly believes" would consider no longer believing,which is not possible,once you are in God's hand there is no leaving his hand,Encouragement to "keep the faith"is one thing but adding to God's word is another.

How do you reconcile the verse in Romans 11 with your doctrine, respectfully?

 

[TruthTalk]

I don't understand your issue with an encouragement to continue believing. Did not the apostle Paul speak to the Gentiles of being grafted in and to not follow after the Israelites in disbelief? He even said if they were not spared, take heed lest he (God) spare not thee.

Romans 11:22 New International Version (NIV)

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Belief is an important part of salvation, our righteousness is one of faith. Do we believe in the Gospel? Do we believe God's account of His Son? Do we believe that Jesus' blood is sufficient for the remission of our sins? Do we believe we were sinners deserving of death, yet by God's grace we have been saved through faith (made children of God)?

Belief and faith are essential components to salvation, both in eternity and now. Do we believe we are a new creation in Christ Jesus? Do we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God? Do we believe that God meets our needs? Do we believe the Lord protects us? This and more are things we must believe if we wish to have victory in this life.

As for eternity, I suppose we must echo Jesus' question. Who do you say that He is? Is He your Lord and Savior? Did He die for your sins and resurrect unto your justification? The Holy Spirit convicted you of these truths, sin, righteousness and judgement. Then you believed. Yet, consider the apostle's warnings. Consider the kindness and sternness of God.

Sorry BenFTW, the issue is not, "encouragement to continue believing", I've already stated that Christian's have the encouragement and comfort of the scriptures.

God keeps us saved until the day of our redemption, the gospel is not if we, "keep believing" - to keep believing is what a born again Christian will do. Phart has made "Keep believing" is the power to save; it is not, God is the power to save and keep us saved.

Phart is leaving out a critical part of the believers life and that is our, "Sanctification" which is a life long pursuit of Holiness and serving God. Believing what God has promised to those who believe is part of our sanctification. His gospel is I will finish what God has started by "Keep believing" if you do not you will "lose your eternal salvation"

The issue is not, encouraging believers to keep believing, the issue is; "losing your eternal salvation." I say God will keep all those Whom He has saved for the day of our redemption and He will not lose one little Child; and Pfart say's no if you do not "keep believing" you have lost your eternal salvation. False gospel, false Christ, and his "keep believing" nonsense will only lead you down a path of insecurity, rob you your "Joy in the Lord", and it will never save your soul. But be my quest and follow Phart's "keep believing" fake gospel, if you will.