I understand the context, however, the text also helps us to understand that baptism, important as it is, must not be included as a part of the saving grace of the gospel. The gospel is what saves, Staying in context, cant you see that even though it didn't matter who baptized who, baptism wasn't the important thing, its the gospel. What people tend to do is add baptism as a an equal part of the gospel when this portion of scripture separates it. It doesn't matter why its separated, as you stated to settle an argument. The point is that baptism is not part of the gospel.
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While you may be technically correct that baptism itself is not "gospel", that is the good news about Jesus, it is the first act of obedience that a saved person must do. Jesus said it... the apostles said it and practiced it....
We cannot minimalize the importance of it without going against Jesus....
We cannot minimalize the importance of it without going against Jesus....
Jesus came to baptize by holy spirit not by water.
He never baptized anyone.
Now his apostles did and God indeed gave it to them to baptize people with water.
When Jesus send his apostles to the world he said to them.
“Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
Baptism is sacrament and public confirmation of persons willingness to become one in the holy body Christ. (Ie the Church)
When believer receives God he is already baptized in spirit by God.
Now we come to the area that we discussed question is do one really need water baptism to be saved... Well answer is no.
But why would anyone not wish to be baptized if he is believer in lord in other hand is peculiar though.
God gave us few simple rules about Church and we should follow them.
I would like to bring another issue up.
I strongly dislike the way many churches put obstacles for persons baptism.
I am not sure how it is in U.S but in many countries priests and pastors do not baptize people without (schooling certain time as member etc)
This is wholly against God's instructions and abomination.
Anyone who wishes to be baptized should be baptized at the spot and accepted to the church.
Any teaching and learning can then be done inside the church.
He never baptized anyone.
Now his apostles did and God indeed gave it to them to baptize people with water.
When Jesus send his apostles to the world he said to them.
“Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
Baptism is sacrament and public confirmation of persons willingness to become one in the holy body Christ. (Ie the Church)
When believer receives God he is already baptized in spirit by God.
Now we come to the area that we discussed question is do one really need water baptism to be saved... Well answer is no.
But why would anyone not wish to be baptized if he is believer in lord in other hand is peculiar though.
God gave us few simple rules about Church and we should follow them.
I would like to bring another issue up.
I strongly dislike the way many churches put obstacles for persons baptism.
I am not sure how it is in U.S but in many countries priests and pastors do not baptize people without (schooling certain time as member etc)
This is wholly against God's instructions and abomination.
Anyone who wishes to be baptized should be baptized at the spot and accepted to the church.
Any teaching and learning can then be done inside the church.
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Let me be crystal clear, I have not, nor do I now minimize the importance of baptism, only in light of being a part of the gospel do I emphatically minimize it. Baptism has its purpose and its place both of which are not in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I seem to recall a portion of scripture which gives a vary grave warning: Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Lesson learned: Don't add baptism to the GOSPEL!!!
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Lesson learned: Don't add baptism to the GOSPEL!!!
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While baptism is not the good news, Paul definitely taught the importance of it... salvation is by grace through faith. When you do that, you will keep his commandments... the first of which is to be baptized.
And judging from the scriptural accounts, it was immediately upon accepting Jesus..... not next month, not "sometime later"... it was understood that it happened immediately.
And judging from the scriptural accounts, it was immediately upon accepting Jesus..... not next month, not "sometime later"... it was understood that it happened immediately.
I agree with you as to when we are to be baptized, after salvation! I am just answering the question posted, " is baptism required in order to be saved? well, if its the gospel that saves, and no one would disagree with that, than since baptism is not a part of the gospel, common sense should tell you, NO, baptism is not a part of salvation. Is it important to be baptized to be obedient? Absolutely! I would say as soon as possible after salvation, Get scripturally Baptized.
This is a difficult thing to explain, but I will attempt it... salvation is by grace, through faith. It is a free gift, because of the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, our savior. That is the gospel... the good news. That is what saves us. Jesus taught that we are to teach others the good news, and baptize them in his name. It is not optional. The apostles taught this, it was simply understood that baptism was unquestionably done when someone accepted and professed Jesus as their Lord.
That is why I say.... "Does baptism save us" .... no.
"Is baptism necessary" ..... yes.
no "what if's" ..... no nothing. Jesus commanded it, there should be NO question as to "whether" it should be done.
That is why I say.... "Does baptism save us" .... no.
"Is baptism necessary" ..... yes.
no "what if's" ..... no nothing. Jesus commanded it, there should be NO question as to "whether" it should be done.
Ac 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV
The Greek word translated as for is εἰς which Arndt and Gingrich Greek/English Lexicon says should be translated' because of' in this sense. 'For' is used the same way in English; but it is not the most common usage.
The true sense here is believe and be baptized because your sins are forgiven.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV
The Greek word translated as for is εἰς which Arndt and Gingrich Greek/English Lexicon says should be translated' because of' in this sense. 'For' is used the same way in English; but it is not the most common usage.
The true sense here is believe and be baptized because your sins are forgiven.
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I think this really boils down to the core of the issue.
Faith without works.
Without works our faith is dead.
If we say we believe but do not wish to do the works
We do not want to help others , We do not wish to do as scripture tells us , We do not want to pray , We do not want to do all the things God calls us to do our faith is dead.
Now we "ALL" know works do not save us they are by product of our faith and we all have much much to improve but we should seek to do so not make excuses and arguments why baptism is not important or helping the poor is not important or why being loving is not important.
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Question is not if one should get baptized.
Question is why someone would argue against importance of baptism, it reeks of rebellion against God's will and makes believer become uncomfortable.
Lets just do as God tells us rather than argue what has greater merit following this or that command.
All what God expects us to do has merit and there is no need to try make issue of it.
Faith without works.
Without works our faith is dead.
If we say we believe but do not wish to do the works
We do not want to help others , We do not wish to do as scripture tells us , We do not want to pray , We do not want to do all the things God calls us to do our faith is dead.
Now we "ALL" know works do not save us they are by product of our faith and we all have much much to improve but we should seek to do so not make excuses and arguments why baptism is not important or helping the poor is not important or why being loving is not important.
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Question is not if one should get baptized.
Question is why someone would argue against importance of baptism, it reeks of rebellion against God's will and makes believer become uncomfortable.
Lets just do as God tells us rather than argue what has greater merit following this or that command.
All what God expects us to do has merit and there is no need to try make issue of it.
I need for you to clarify, but be careful you seem to be getting very close to self contradiction, You ask, is baptism necessary? I'm asking, necessary for what? for obedience? yes. For salvation? No. It cant be for salvation as you have already stated, so then what exactly could it be for? If you input baptism in any way to the gospel of salvation you have added to the gospel and this has dangerous consequences. Gal 1:8 Gal. 1:9. I agree that baptism is necessary in order to be an obedient Christian and receive the blessings that go's along with obedience, however, we are primarily addressing the topic of salvation with the absence of baptism. Can a person be saved without being baptized? yes or no
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If we are arguing for baptism for salvation, it must be argued against. For me, I see water baptism as a thorn in the flesh for the church, much as circumcision was to the jews. The argument back then was circumcision is required. If your not going to get circumcised how can you be saved? Or worse yet, You are not saved UNTIL you are circumcised
Same today. If your not going to get baptised. How can you be saved.? Or worse yet your not saved UNTIL you are baptised (in water)
Yes, faith without works is dead. But that is not written for God to prove our faith is real. Or for us to determine if ones faith is real. (God knows it it is real or not before one work is done, thats why he makes us alive in him before one work is done)
it is for each individual to testa their own faith, Is my faith is real or not? Am I a hearer of the word only not a doer? If I am, I need to rethink my position and see why, I am not working.
I think that is what I said. Since we should be baptized immediately after our salvation, then, yes, we can be saved without being baptized. The result of that salvation should be immediate obedience to our Lord's command, which is to be baptized.
If a person refuses to obey, then have they truly believed and accepted Jesus?
If a person accepts Jesus, but refuses to give up their sinful lifestyle, have they truly accepted Jesus' salvation?
Salvation was not intended to be a cafeteria plan, where you do what you like, and refuse what you don't like...
If a person refuses to obey, then have they truly believed and accepted Jesus?
If a person accepts Jesus, but refuses to give up their sinful lifestyle, have they truly accepted Jesus' salvation?
Salvation was not intended to be a cafeteria plan, where you do what you like, and refuse what you don't like...
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What is Gods view of what is good and what is evil?
Do you realise, You today can not live up to Gods view. So in your own words. You can nbot live up to what you claim is demanded.
Are you really saved then? (Since you can not live up to Gods standard, and by the way, You can not only one person ever did, and he died for your sins)
Do you realise, You today can not live up to Gods view. So in your own words. You can nbot live up to what you claim is demanded.
Are you really saved then? (Since you can not live up to Gods standard, and by the way, You can not only one person ever did, and he died for your sins)
Good grief... I thought you knew me better than that.... or are you just wanting to make a point?
I have never claimed that we (I) can live sinless lives. We (I) fail every day to live sinless lives.
What I was talking about was deliberate refusal to obey Jesus command to be baptized. I fully expect every saved believer to fail during their walk with God to obey all commands... but, if you know Jesus commanded baptism, and you willingly accept Jesus as your savior, but REFUSE to be baptized? I would have to question whether that person was truly giving their life to Jesus.
I mean, if you refuse to obey from the "get-go".....
If it is an optional kind of thing, why did Jesus command it? Why did the apostles command/expect it?
How far are you willing to go, to try to "prove" that baptism isn't important? I am not willing to do that. I'd much rather take Jesus command at face value, and not try to parse it down to "how much can I get away with" .... that smacks of the Pharisees tithing even their spices... or asking "how many times are we required to forgive someone"....
I have never claimed that we (I) can live sinless lives. We (I) fail every day to live sinless lives.
What I was talking about was deliberate refusal to obey Jesus command to be baptized. I fully expect every saved believer to fail during their walk with God to obey all commands... but, if you know Jesus commanded baptism, and you willingly accept Jesus as your savior, but REFUSE to be baptized? I would have to question whether that person was truly giving their life to Jesus.
I mean, if you refuse to obey from the "get-go".....
If it is an optional kind of thing, why did Jesus command it? Why did the apostles command/expect it?
How far are you willing to go, to try to "prove" that baptism isn't important? I am not willing to do that. I'd much rather take Jesus command at face value, and not try to parse it down to "how much can I get away with" .... that smacks of the Pharisees tithing even their spices... or asking "how many times are we required to forgive someone"....
