Let's kill the anti-rhetoric concerning missions
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Because Turks have been killing off Armenians for a long time.
Now if you are referring to Arminians, that's another story. The Reformed have been "killing off" Arminians for a long time.
Exactly. But when people put on certain theological blinders, they cannot see that there are more than two camps in this controversy. Biblicists do not accept either Calvinism or Arminianism since there is a third option.
Now if you are referring to Arminians, that's another story. The Reformed have been "killing off" Arminians for a long time.
Exactly. But when people put on certain theological blinders, they cannot see that there are more than two camps in this controversy. Biblicists do not accept either Calvinism or Arminianism since there is a third option.
Come on Brother, do Arminians evangelize by telling sinner that they can lose thier salvation?
But let's say both do not tell the sinner anything about doctrine, they would be following the format that the Lord laid out.
Matthew 28:18-20 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Mark 16:15 “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.”
Luke 24:46-47 “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Notice the order set by the Lord, proclaiming the Gospel of repentance to the world or all nations then dunk as you put it, then teaching them. Not teaching, then dunking, then proclaiming. We are to evangelize with the Gorspel of repentance, then once they have repented we baptize and then we are to teach them to observe all that the Lord commanded us. The teaching always starts after they have repented and have been baptized, if we follow the order that the Lord set out.
This is the problem with modern evangelism, they want to teach things that can only be seen or understood by a born agian believer.
John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
They trying to teach things of the kingdom of God to sinner that sinner cannot see or understand, as Jesus taught Nicodemus. Jesus was dealing with the Jewish people who knew the Law and the Prophets very well and as Paul tells us the Law brings the knowledge of sin in Romans 3:19-20.
“Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”
We should us the Law to evangelize sinners so that the Law can lead them to the knowledge of sin and with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts they can repent, be baptized and then be taught all that the Lord taught us to observe.
D
I'm fully aware you're out to teach the gospel of Willie. No doubt about that.
In reality though, since you don't believe in election, and think it's purely "luck," why do you vote? After all, the candidate either simply accepts the position or not. It has nothing to do with the path they were designated to have to follow before they were even born. You casting your vote means absolutely nothing. It's all up to them if they choose to accept or don't. God has nothing to do with that either, right? And you sure don't, so why vote?
Election means nothing. Willie's gospel.
In reality though, since you don't believe in election, and think it's purely "luck," why do you vote? After all, the candidate either simply accepts the position or not. It has nothing to do with the path they were designated to have to follow before they were even born. You casting your vote means absolutely nothing. It's all up to them if they choose to accept or don't. God has nothing to do with that either, right? And you sure don't, so why vote?
Election means nothing. Willie's gospel.
Some of the best missionaries were reformed. Charles Spurgeon is called the prince of preachers for a reason and he was a calvinist.
A lot of evangelicals do not qualify in either camp, arminian or calvinist.
They want the arminian humanist free will, but they dont want the consequence of that, which is being able to lose your salvation.
Its an inconsistent position to hold, you cant have it both ways. The only consistent arminian is an open-theist.
The reformed have an answer to all the verses, including the ones that affirm eternal security for the genuine believer, and the ones that warn of apostasy. Do research on this and you will see it.
A lot of evangelicals do not qualify in either camp, arminian or calvinist.
They want the arminian humanist free will, but they dont want the consequence of that, which is being able to lose your salvation.
Its an inconsistent position to hold, you cant have it both ways. The only consistent arminian is an open-theist.
The reformed have an answer to all the verses, including the ones that affirm eternal security for the genuine believer, and the ones that warn of apostasy. Do research on this and you will see it.
D
Funny how important it becomes with names when there is the slightest hint YOUR reputation is on the line.
If you're wondering, I don't consider you an Arminian either.
Truthfully though. Arminianism is a step up from what I consider you. (Of course, I don't consider Arminianism to be a bad thing, until it IS the gospel of the one who believes it after learning better.)
Why is it important to you not to be consider Arminian, but it doesn't bother you when people, supposedly Christians, lie about Calvinism?
At some point, Arminianism becomes a side. At some point, Calvinism becomes a side, but no where have I ever hinted that the sides are a coin with only two sides. Some sides come under Christ. Some sides don't.
If you're wondering, I don't consider you an Arminian either.
Truthfully though. Arminianism is a step up from what I consider you. (Of course, I don't consider Arminianism to be a bad thing, until it IS the gospel of the one who believes it after learning better.)
Why is it important to you not to be consider Arminian, but it doesn't bother you when people, supposedly Christians, lie about Calvinism?
At some point, Arminianism becomes a side. At some point, Calvinism becomes a side, but no where have I ever hinted that the sides are a coin with only two sides. Some sides come under Christ. Some sides don't.
D
My emotions become louder than my reasoning after people refuse to listen to reason. You haven't received my emotional side, because you are willing to reason. And reason doesn't always mean "agree." It means you listen, and are willing to keep within reason.
Willie doesn't most of the time, and he blames it on me not being reasonable either.
Willie doesn't most of the time, and he blames it on me not being reasonable either.
D
This is my sense of humor talking, (since people don't always get I have one. lol)
The easiest way to become a Calvinist is to study the scripture -- truly study it. Because, honestly 2000-Xthousand years later, we simply have little to no understanding of the culture at the time the Bible was written, so we're going to have to go outside the Bible to hear from scholars who have studied the times and culture too.
Lots of "scholars" have written such books throughout the age of the printing press. (Lots wrote before that, but very few books from back then because paper only last but so long, and if those books weren't eventually published with a printing press, they were lost.) But who took on the cause of this new invention the printing press first? Martin Luther's students when they translated the 95 theses into English and mass distributed. So, since printing press did such a good thing to bring to light the foibles of indulgences, the printing press became a big hit, especially among the reformers.
And through the years -- centuries -- more and more scholars wrote more and more Bible study aids.
So which are worth reading and which aren't? Well, every so often a new "champion" comes to light. But, God was just as gracious with that as he was in establishing his Bible. The ones that weren't any good didn't last as worth trusting. (Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdeline, Arminius's book, Sevetus, Hal Linsey, etc.) The ones that are did last. (John Calvin, whoever rebuked Arminius, Robertson, Edwards, Henry, Spurgeon.) And the weird thing? Most of them are reformed.
If folks want to study the Bible, it usually comes down to picking the classics, and a whole bunch of the classics are reformed.
I admit it, not all, but even the ones who weren't but lasted, didn't have a philosophy to adapt to yet, so a lot of them had the philosophy started by the reformers. We came out of the Discipleship Movement. (aka Shepherding Movement) Our two main pastors -- John Poole and Ernest Baxter -- were anti-reformed. BUT they were pastors, so did go to seminary and did learn from the classics, and then made the mistake of giving their syllabus of good reading material to anyone interested. Hubby was interested. And that was the beginning of him reading men like Francis Schaeffer, Gordon Clark, A.W. Pink, and then on to names like Boettner, Owens, Van Til, and men of that flavor. We weren't supposed to become Calvinists, but when you study, if you actually choose to study words like "faith," "justification," and "salvation," it's going to happen. Biblical studying does that to you... unless you try hard not to believe God is sovereign.
The easiest way to become a Calvinist is to study the scripture -- truly study it. Because, honestly 2000-Xthousand years later, we simply have little to no understanding of the culture at the time the Bible was written, so we're going to have to go outside the Bible to hear from scholars who have studied the times and culture too.
Lots of "scholars" have written such books throughout the age of the printing press. (Lots wrote before that, but very few books from back then because paper only last but so long, and if those books weren't eventually published with a printing press, they were lost.) But who took on the cause of this new invention the printing press first? Martin Luther's students when they translated the 95 theses into English and mass distributed. So, since printing press did such a good thing to bring to light the foibles of indulgences, the printing press became a big hit, especially among the reformers.
And through the years -- centuries -- more and more scholars wrote more and more Bible study aids.
So which are worth reading and which aren't? Well, every so often a new "champion" comes to light. But, God was just as gracious with that as he was in establishing his Bible. The ones that weren't any good didn't last as worth trusting. (Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdeline, Arminius's book, Sevetus, Hal Linsey, etc.) The ones that are did last. (John Calvin, whoever rebuked Arminius, Robertson, Edwards, Henry, Spurgeon.) And the weird thing? Most of them are reformed.
If folks want to study the Bible, it usually comes down to picking the classics, and a whole bunch of the classics are reformed.
I admit it, not all, but even the ones who weren't but lasted, didn't have a philosophy to adapt to yet, so a lot of them had the philosophy started by the reformers. We came out of the Discipleship Movement. (aka Shepherding Movement) Our two main pastors -- John Poole and Ernest Baxter -- were anti-reformed. BUT they were pastors, so did go to seminary and did learn from the classics, and then made the mistake of giving their syllabus of good reading material to anyone interested. Hubby was interested. And that was the beginning of him reading men like Francis Schaeffer, Gordon Clark, A.W. Pink, and then on to names like Boettner, Owens, Van Til, and men of that flavor. We weren't supposed to become Calvinists, but when you study, if you actually choose to study words like "faith," "justification," and "salvation," it's going to happen. Biblical studying does that to you... unless you try hard not to believe God is sovereign.
There are 2 camps here, it seems. Those who consider themselves "Priests of Jesus Christ", and only Jesus Christ, as they, "deem" the Son, AS the Father! (many called) Why you might ask? Is because they keep getting rejected in proceeding ON TO, the Father, and turned back, to the Son! Meanwhile, time passes on, rejected believers assemble in a "like-mindedness", concluding (therefore), that Jesus IS the Father! He sent Himself! They BELIEVE THIS! Even though, there are many instances that Jesus Himself was quoted as saying the Father sent Him! And? Look at how Paul writes his "greetings", in the various letters he writes to the newly forming, New Covenant Churches! Paying homage to BOTH, the Father AND Jesus Christ "CRUCIFIED!" The only reason I can conclude, is that they have been "blinded" into believing a lie, put upon them BY the Father! (strong delusion).
Then? There is this other camp, who, from a very early onset in their "Christian Walk", started realizing inside themselves, that there is "more" to God's Word, in the Bible, then they are, or were being taught. To me, anyways, it is in this manner, the Father "sprinkles" these around, as time passes on, in HIS "Preserving of the Saints". From which ones like Calvin, base their ministry on! As well, as "probably" Martin Luther, and others throughout this present earth/heaven age. Little bit, by little bit, the Father revealing His Loving Kindness, towards His Children!
Perhaps, it's a lack of discernment, on someone's part, in this "body of Christ" we are striving to "assemble", where some are saying "we don't need this part of the body!" "We're doing just fine, WITHOUT 'em!" while the "other's", are striving in their "part" of this same body, by teaching/preaching to "NOT muzzle the ox, while he's trampling grapes!" "There is ONLY 1 way unto the Father!" Jesus Christ! Being a "Priest" of, Jesus Christ? You are called, to proceed onwards TOWARDS the Father.....TO BE CHOSEN! For what? You may ask? To becoming a "Priest" of the Most HIGH GOD! As in the "order" of Melchizedek! (few are chosen)
How do these 2 camps become reconciled with each other? When 1 camp simply refuses to acknowledge the high(er) calling of GOD IN CHRIST?
An old saying sez: "the beatings will continue, until moral improves", seems to be a fairly accurate assessment of this, eh?
The perpetuating questions remain! Who are the Ox's? What "are" the Grapes? Who, is this Melchizedek feller, anyways? Is being a "priest forever" have a "point in time" backwards, as well, as forwards? What does "bring to remembrance" mean? These are questions that can only be reconciled, or answered, within the believer themself.
Salvation cannot be lost. Yet, Election, CAN!
Then? There is this other camp, who, from a very early onset in their "Christian Walk", started realizing inside themselves, that there is "more" to God's Word, in the Bible, then they are, or were being taught. To me, anyways, it is in this manner, the Father "sprinkles" these around, as time passes on, in HIS "Preserving of the Saints". From which ones like Calvin, base their ministry on! As well, as "probably" Martin Luther, and others throughout this present earth/heaven age. Little bit, by little bit, the Father revealing His Loving Kindness, towards His Children!
Perhaps, it's a lack of discernment, on someone's part, in this "body of Christ" we are striving to "assemble", where some are saying "we don't need this part of the body!" "We're doing just fine, WITHOUT 'em!" while the "other's", are striving in their "part" of this same body, by teaching/preaching to "NOT muzzle the ox, while he's trampling grapes!" "There is ONLY 1 way unto the Father!" Jesus Christ! Being a "Priest" of, Jesus Christ? You are called, to proceed onwards TOWARDS the Father.....TO BE CHOSEN! For what? You may ask? To becoming a "Priest" of the Most HIGH GOD! As in the "order" of Melchizedek! (few are chosen)
How do these 2 camps become reconciled with each other? When 1 camp simply refuses to acknowledge the high(er) calling of GOD IN CHRIST?
An old saying sez: "the beatings will continue, until moral improves", seems to be a fairly accurate assessment of this, eh?
The perpetuating questions remain! Who are the Ox's? What "are" the Grapes? Who, is this Melchizedek feller, anyways? Is being a "priest forever" have a "point in time" backwards, as well, as forwards? What does "bring to remembrance" mean? These are questions that can only be reconciled, or answered, within the believer themself.
Salvation cannot be lost. Yet, Election, CAN!
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D
Think I'm going to change my handle to "The THREAD KILLER!" Cuz, I can kill a thread, faster then anyone in here!
Truthfully, I couldn't make heads or tails or bellybutton out of your post, so kind of skipped it for fear of needing aspirin. (I get headaches when I think too hard, and I'm on an anti-inflammatory that don't get rid of headaches, but I fear taking aspirin too, so just don't want to think that hard.)
Thank you so much Depleted, for helping me make my case.
Ya see? I'm 65 years old. I am on no medication/s, save some eyedrops, for cataract surgery I had last week. My blood pressure surprises Dr's. each time they take it, because it's just a tad below "normal". And the fact, that I'm 280 pounds @ 5'9", and smoke a pack of cigarettes (kool mild's) a day! Not diabetic, no heart disease/s, and am otherwise in pretty good health! Upon showing their amazement concerning my physical health. I tell each n every one of 'em: "I'm blessed!" I leave it to each individual's own interpretation of their own "religious belief system/s", as to "who, or whom, or what" I'm blessed by, or with!
I don't get headaches, in thinking about such things as I've stated, because , it is been by my own personal experience/s, and "striving's" to Love the Lord MY God, with ALL my heart, and ALL my soul, and ALL my heart, and ALL my strength, and ALL my mind! Notice, I didn't even mention "my religion."
This part here, is going to be a little hard for me to explain, but, shall give it a whirl anyway. We all are "wired" differently, regarding some things. whereas, we ALL are wired the same, in regards to other things. El Shaddai (God, for all intensive purposes), has within His power, and might, to correctly, "rewire" parts, or, those parts, within the grey matter area, to make it profitable, not only For the Glory of God, and Jesus Christ, but also, for one's own "physical" health, as well! I hope someone smiled, or, was in agreement, with my last statement. Even "little" things, such as a "crook" in your neck, a yawn (usually, a scoffer moment), an itching of your head, ear/s, or body....Means something! Generally? Not a good something, or profitable something, as far as the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, are concerned. May be indicative of a something good for flesh....or self, but, not God, nor His Son, nor, of the true light.
"Back in the day" of the O.T., when people became sick, or ill, others would ask of them what they did, or were doing wrong, or not doing correctly, that God would place such a calamity, or illness upon them. And, it's not like God did anything TO, them, except perhaps, turn His head (blessing) away from them. Cuz the devil gonna do, what the devil gonna do, right?....NATURALLY!
You are stronger, then you are being made to believe you are!
Ya see? I'm 65 years old. I am on no medication/s, save some eyedrops, for cataract surgery I had last week. My blood pressure surprises Dr's. each time they take it, because it's just a tad below "normal". And the fact, that I'm 280 pounds @ 5'9", and smoke a pack of cigarettes (kool mild's) a day! Not diabetic, no heart disease/s, and am otherwise in pretty good health! Upon showing their amazement concerning my physical health. I tell each n every one of 'em: "I'm blessed!" I leave it to each individual's own interpretation of their own "religious belief system/s", as to "who, or whom, or what" I'm blessed by, or with!
I don't get headaches, in thinking about such things as I've stated, because , it is been by my own personal experience/s, and "striving's" to Love the Lord MY God, with ALL my heart, and ALL my soul, and ALL my heart, and ALL my strength, and ALL my mind! Notice, I didn't even mention "my religion."
This part here, is going to be a little hard for me to explain, but, shall give it a whirl anyway. We all are "wired" differently, regarding some things. whereas, we ALL are wired the same, in regards to other things. El Shaddai (God, for all intensive purposes), has within His power, and might, to correctly, "rewire" parts, or, those parts, within the grey matter area, to make it profitable, not only For the Glory of God, and Jesus Christ, but also, for one's own "physical" health, as well! I hope someone smiled, or, was in agreement, with my last statement. Even "little" things, such as a "crook" in your neck, a yawn (usually, a scoffer moment), an itching of your head, ear/s, or body....Means something! Generally? Not a good something, or profitable something, as far as the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, are concerned. May be indicative of a something good for flesh....or self, but, not God, nor His Son, nor, of the true light.
"Back in the day" of the O.T., when people became sick, or ill, others would ask of them what they did, or were doing wrong, or not doing correctly, that God would place such a calamity, or illness upon them. And, it's not like God did anything TO, them, except perhaps, turn His head (blessing) away from them. Cuz the devil gonna do, what the devil gonna do, right?....NATURALLY!
You are stronger, then you are being made to believe you are!
Yes, we get it, you don't like God's revealed will or decrees and reject his ways and parts of his Gospel you don't like.
God has chosen whom he wills to save, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, and you loathe that truth. Maybe you're scared of it. Join the gang, there is fear in God and his ways are to be feared, so, you should be. But while being scared/and or rejecting it you attempt to create a gospel the way you like it and try to rewrite the narrative.
God doesn't need you to get him off the hook. He's good and his ways are just whether you think them just (fair) or not.
The bottom line is you (think) you know better than God. There are many like you, Romans 9:20 people.
The sad thing in all of this is we get mislabeled, and what they accuse us of is really hyper-Calvinism. Fun thing is they are the ones who are hyper-Calvinists. The H-C's avow God will save ppl, regardless they hear the gospel or not. That's what they avow when they use Romans 1:20, when asked about those who died never hearing the gospel. Yep, Romans 1:20 and John 3:16 unravels our theology. Yep, I reckon...NOT!!
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.[Romans 1:16]
The gospel here is the verbal speaking of it, whether it be via witnessing or preaching/teaching it.
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[SUP] [/SUP]that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[SUP] [/SUP]For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[SUP] [/SUP]How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[SUP] [/SUP]But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Romans 10:8-17]
Again, the gospel that saves ppl comes via the spoken word, as ppl witness to the lost. None can be saved w/o hearing it, seeing that faith(we are justified by faith Romans 4:3 & 5:1 just for starters) comes from hearing the message about the Christ.
Romans 1:20 just shows all ppl outside of the Christ being w/o excuse, and already condemned.[John 3:18]
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.[Romans 1:16]
The gospel here is the verbal speaking of it, whether it be via witnessing or preaching/teaching it.
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[SUP] [/SUP]that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[SUP] [/SUP]For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[SUP] [/SUP]How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[SUP] [/SUP]But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.[Romans 10:8-17]
Again, the gospel that saves ppl comes via the spoken word, as ppl witness to the lost. None can be saved w/o hearing it, seeing that faith(we are justified by faith Romans 4:3 & 5:1 just for starters) comes from hearing the message about the Christ.
Romans 1:20 just shows all ppl outside of the Christ being w/o excuse, and already condemned.[John 3:18]
