Show me where the Bible says that the 7 churches are the 7 ages of the church.
The Millennium literal or symbolic?
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Show me where the Bible says that the 7 churches are the 7 ages of the church.
Show me exactly where the Bible says that the Revelation is all future to us, 2017 AD..
Eph 2: [SUP]13 [/SUP]But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [SUP]15 [/SUP]having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
THIS WAS THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS>>>
THIS WAS THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS>>>
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It's not exactly 144,000, and the firstfruits were of the 12 tribes that James wrote to:
James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings
First fruits of the kingdom, Pentecost.
First fruits of the resurrection, with Jesus.
The problem is there are 4 different versions of the tribulation/millennium eschatology. 1 being the most popular and non Biblical. Movies have been made of that one. It has a rapture at the begining and end of the tribulation. There is only one Biblical rapture. That leaves pretrib premil, trib premil, and amil I am an adherent of panmil. It will all pan out in the end.
Hello abcdef,
Regarding Revelation being future, in Rev.1:19 Jesus told John to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the church which also represents the entire church period
what will take place later = The events that take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period
Rev.4:1 is prophetic i.e. an allusion to the gathering of the church when John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet which says "come up here!" This is also the reason why we no longer see the word Ekklesia/church appear from chapter 4 onward and that because it was just called up by that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which I believe is synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16.
Therefore, we are still currently in the "what is now" i.e. the church period part of what John was told to write. When the Lord descends believers will then hear the Lord's voice which will be that trumpet call saying "come up here" and the church will be gathered. Following that will begin the "what must take place later" part of what John was told to write, which is still future.
The little scroll is the story of the 2 witnesses. It is bitter because they are killed.
It is not the letter of Revelation.
The demons and spirits kept there are cut off from God and men, so they are dead.
The 2 witness are the word of God, Israel keeps the word of God to the world, the people of Israel are the 2 witnesses.
The Law and the Prophets speak of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that flows out to the world.
Yes, because they persecute Israel, they are removing the way to find Jesus.
The visions of the Rev, are not necessarily in chronological order either.
The resurrection called the "first" in Rev 20, is showing the resurrection of Jesus, not a future resurrection.
The entire earth of Israel (people).
The fountain and river of God's blessings of life, flow from God's throne to the creation.
It's not literal blood and water.
The first 4 trumps and 4 vials, are placed on the four parts of creation, earth, seas, fountains and rivers, heavens, Rev 14:7.
Jesus was resurrected, right? That is the first resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-28.
The rapture/resurrection is when Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom, that is the second resurrection.
So I'm not teaching that the second resurrection has already happened. (as you accuse me)
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The teaching that you are referring to, was that of the Sadducees who say that there is no resurrection.
They believed that baptism was the resurrection and that there was no other.
I've already asked you to find ANY PLACE, PERSON, WEBSITE, OR GROUP, that is saying exactly what I am saying.
Jerusalem is going to fall to Iran and it's allies.
3 1/2 days later, Jesus comes for the Kingdom and this planet ends in fire.
Well, if you want to start in Rev. 1: 17-19....
"17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"
Wait, I will write them down for you..I though I would add the exact words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now if you will pay attention to what he said to JOHN....
"write the things which thou hast seen" Now John wrote Revelation around 94AD so these things are in the PAST.
"and the things which are" Yes, John was still under Roman Rule. So this is John's Present
"and the Things which shall be hereafter" the words 'Shall BE' denote the future BUT Jesus ups this one more note..."Hereafter"
OUR present definition of "hereafter" is :1 :after this in sequence or in time 2 :in some future time or state
The Septuagint LXX has a different writing of this part of v.19. Since they got their interpretation directly from the Hebrew manuscripts, I will write them done fo you as well.
They read as follows. "Therefore write the things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which will take place after these things. "
In other words the Future (After John)
Now I know you don't agree but then I expected that however there are others out there that may find it useful.
I have said this before, but once more won't hurt!
First, what kind of literature is Revelation?
Apocalyptic
And what does that mean?
"Type of biblical literature that emphasizes the lifting of the veil between heaven and earth and the revelation of God and his plan for the world. Apocalyptic writings are marked by distinctive literary features, particularly prediction of future events and accounts of visionary experiences or journeys to heaven, often involving vivid symbolism. Later apocalypses often build upon and elaborate the symbolism employed by earlier ones. This is particularly the case in the Book of Revelation, in which not only earlier apocalypses but the whole Old Testament is plundered for ideas and symbols. Readers need to be alert to discern allusions."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apocalyptic/
So, it is supposed to be revealing, but it builds on earlier symbols and allusions.
So, Revelation is NOT literal. It cannot and should NOT be taken literally.
So where does this leave the discussion of the millennium in Rev. 20?
Well, since it is the ONLY place in the whole Bible that talks about this supposed millennium, and it is in a book that should not be taken literally, I'm going to repeat that the millennium is symbolic!
God doesn't create an important doctrine like this supposed millennium, and then confine it to just one chapter of one book. Good theology and hermeneutics demands that something should literally be all over the Bible, to create a foundational doctrine out of it. And since really, a big part of dispensational eschatology is based solely on Rev. 20, with a few verses from Daniel and Matt 24, I exaggerate, there are probably 2 or 3 other verses!) that is NOT a good doctrine.
In other words, dispensational eschatology is simply not Biblical. Most of it is inferred, imagined and uses a few key words to hold together a huge scenario, say it is literal, and then wonder why people think it is a farce?
First, what kind of literature is Revelation?
Apocalyptic
And what does that mean?
"Type of biblical literature that emphasizes the lifting of the veil between heaven and earth and the revelation of God and his plan for the world. Apocalyptic writings are marked by distinctive literary features, particularly prediction of future events and accounts of visionary experiences or journeys to heaven, often involving vivid symbolism. Later apocalypses often build upon and elaborate the symbolism employed by earlier ones. This is particularly the case in the Book of Revelation, in which not only earlier apocalypses but the whole Old Testament is plundered for ideas and symbols. Readers need to be alert to discern allusions."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apocalyptic/
So, it is supposed to be revealing, but it builds on earlier symbols and allusions.
So, Revelation is NOT literal. It cannot and should NOT be taken literally.
So where does this leave the discussion of the millennium in Rev. 20?
Well, since it is the ONLY place in the whole Bible that talks about this supposed millennium, and it is in a book that should not be taken literally, I'm going to repeat that the millennium is symbolic!
God doesn't create an important doctrine like this supposed millennium, and then confine it to just one chapter of one book. Good theology and hermeneutics demands that something should literally be all over the Bible, to create a foundational doctrine out of it. And since really, a big part of dispensational eschatology is based solely on Rev. 20, with a few verses from Daniel and Matt 24, I exaggerate, there are probably 2 or 3 other verses!) that is NOT a good doctrine.
In other words, dispensational eschatology is simply not Biblical. Most of it is inferred, imagined and uses a few key words to hold together a huge scenario, say it is literal, and then wonder why people think it is a farce?
No where in Revelation does it state that the little scroll is in reference to the two witnesses. That is conjecture on your part.
The scroll is sweet in as honey in John's mouth because it is the word of God. It is bitter in his stomach because of the events of wrath that are contained in it.
Demons/fallen angels, do not die. They will exist forever in and will continue to exist after they have been judged and thrown into the lake of fire:
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages. "
Everyone who is created, whether angel or mankind, exist forever. Life and death are both states of existence. Death only refers to the state of being separated from God and in torment in the lake of fire. It does not infer annihilation or non-existence, but encompasses complete loss of well being, ruination.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgment will take place in the exact order that God listed them in the book of Revelation. To take them out of order is to distort His word.
The word "first" as in first resurrection, does not mean "Only resurrection." There are stages or phases to the first resurrection, which includes Jesus as the first fruits, the church at his coming, the male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who are caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years, the two witnesses who are also resurrected in the middle of the seven and the great tribulation saints who are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age.
Again, you cannot have the church being gathered in Rev.20:4-6, because that phase of the first resurrection takes place after God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. Always keep in mind regarding the gathering of the church, that you cannot ignore the boundaries of God's wrath. Always keep in mind when interpreting end-time events, that the church cannot enter into the time of God's wrath. That is sealed in cement! Therefore regarding end-time exegesis, this fact must always be paramount. If your interpretation puts the church through God's wrath, then it is incorrect.
Yes it is literal blood and do you know why? Because after the sea and rivers and fresh water are turned into literal blood, the angel in charge of the waters responds with the following:
"You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were; for they have shed the blood of your saints and your prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
All of the ocean water and fresh water at that time will be turned into literal blood, just as God through Moses did to the Nile. The reference to them having blood to drink is a direct result of the blood of the saints and the prophets that they will have shed. Therefore, the oceans, rivers and all fresh water will be turned into literal blood. And God can do it, for he did it through Moses when he turned the Nile into blood so that all of the fish died. Even the water that was in their vessels turned into blood.
As previously stated and as appears in scripture, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the order that they appear in scripture. By changing their order, you are distorting the word of that prophecy.
I'm not concerned about finding any other place, person, website or group that is saying what you are, because you interpretations are in great error! Therefore I am not interested in finding others who are teaching the same things that you are.
First, there is no mention of 3 1/2 days. There is however the mention of 3 1/2 years, referred to as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time, all equaling 3 1/2 years. Again, there is no mention of 3 1/2 days, except for the time that the two witnesses will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, which are two literal persons that will be prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem during the first 3 1/2 years.
Stop teaching the things that you are teaching
Apokalupsis basically means events that were previously covered that are being revealed, an unveiling.
God the Father and the Lord would disagree with you. This thinking is the creme de la crème of why so many misinterpret the book of Revelation. Regarding the events contained within the book scripture says the following:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."
So, the book of Revelation is given by God the Father to the Lord to show all believers what must soon take place, those events all being related to the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will take place literally as they are written. We would not be able to know what those events were unless we read them in the literal sense. I have said it many times and I will continue to say it: people have no understanding if the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And that because they distort the meaning by taking away the literal meaning.
The millennial period will be a literal thousand years just as it is states six times in Rev.20. Your conclusion is flawed because it is based on your reading of Revelation as being non-literal. Because of this all conclusions will be in error.
That's conjecture on your part. The fact is that the millennial period is mentioned by description in Dan.2:31-45. Jesus is that Rock that is cut out of the mountain without human hands and who falls on the feet of the statue, smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away by the wind without leaving a trace (end of human government). Then Rock becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth. which is an allusion to the millennial period which takes place after the statue which represents all human government is smashed to pieces. And the way in which they will be smashed to pieces will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Maybe you should stop being concerned about man-made hermeneutics and just study the word of God in the literal sense until a symbolic, Hyperbolic, figurative or allegorical interpretation is required. read it in the literal sense until the literal sense doesn't make sense. That said, there is no reason to not interpret the thousand years of Rev.20 as being a literal thousand years. The context should always be considered first. In the case of Rev.20, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to apply another meaning other the literal. By doing so you are forcing the issue.
96 AD. The "now" of John.
Rev 1:1 - 5:14, 96 AD.
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Rev 6:1 - 6:17, the 7 seals show the past of John. From the rejection of the gospel kingdom by Israel until the destruction of Jerusalem (6th seal).
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Rev 7:1 - 8-6, 96 AD. the sealing BEGINS
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Rev 8:7 - 11:19, John's future.
The 7 trumpets, the story of Israel from 96 AD until the rapture/resurrection and the end of the planet.
The sealing ENDS, at the sixth trumpet when the angels over the Euphrates are released. See Rev 7:3, 9:14.
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Rev chs. 12,13,14. Past, present (96 AD), and future from John's time.
Chs 12-13-14:1-13, The dragon iron beast Rome, past, present (96 ad), and prophecies of it's relation to Israel.
Rev 14:14-16, The harvest of the 1st resurrection (Jesus).
Rev 14:17-20, Israel suffers God's rejection of blessings until they are restored to Jerusalem, the wine press is trodden outside the city, when Israel is restored to the city (Jerusalem), then the wine press period is over, 1967.
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Rev 15, John's present 96 AD.
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Rev 16, 7 vials, future from John, the same time period as the trumpets. 96 AD until the end of the planet.
The vials show that the unbelievers, mainly the dragon iron beast Rome, suffers the loss of God's blessings just as Israel.
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Rev Chs. 17, 18, 19. The dragon iron beast Rome at John's time and future.
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Rev 20, John's past,
Jesus' resurrection (1st), Satan thrown down from heaven (Pentecost), bound (limited to destroy Israel, the dragon sends out a flood of people but the earth helps Rev 12:15-16), The kingdom on earth begins (1000 yrs),
Rev 20, Future from 96 AD,
V 2, The dragon (with 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12:3) iron beast Rome, comes back from the dead (1929), He deceives the nations into surrounding Jerusalem that is restored to Israel (happening now, Jerusalem/Israel is surrounded by Iran and Magog)
The 2nd resurrection/rapture where Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom, last judgement, heaven.
Rev 1:1 - 5:14, 96 AD.
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Rev 6:1 - 6:17, the 7 seals show the past of John. From the rejection of the gospel kingdom by Israel until the destruction of Jerusalem (6th seal).
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Rev 7:1 - 8-6, 96 AD. the sealing BEGINS
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Rev 8:7 - 11:19, John's future.
The 7 trumpets, the story of Israel from 96 AD until the rapture/resurrection and the end of the planet.
The sealing ENDS, at the sixth trumpet when the angels over the Euphrates are released. See Rev 7:3, 9:14.
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Rev chs. 12,13,14. Past, present (96 AD), and future from John's time.
Chs 12-13-14:1-13, The dragon iron beast Rome, past, present (96 ad), and prophecies of it's relation to Israel.
Rev 14:14-16, The harvest of the 1st resurrection (Jesus).
Rev 14:17-20, Israel suffers God's rejection of blessings until they are restored to Jerusalem, the wine press is trodden outside the city, when Israel is restored to the city (Jerusalem), then the wine press period is over, 1967.
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Rev 15, John's present 96 AD.
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Rev 16, 7 vials, future from John, the same time period as the trumpets. 96 AD until the end of the planet.
The vials show that the unbelievers, mainly the dragon iron beast Rome, suffers the loss of God's blessings just as Israel.
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Rev Chs. 17, 18, 19. The dragon iron beast Rome at John's time and future.
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Rev 20, John's past,
Jesus' resurrection (1st), Satan thrown down from heaven (Pentecost), bound (limited to destroy Israel, the dragon sends out a flood of people but the earth helps Rev 12:15-16), The kingdom on earth begins (1000 yrs),
Rev 20, Future from 96 AD,
V 2, The dragon (with 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12:3) iron beast Rome, comes back from the dead (1929), He deceives the nations into surrounding Jerusalem that is restored to Israel (happening now, Jerusalem/Israel is surrounded by Iran and Magog)
The 2nd resurrection/rapture where Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom, last judgement, heaven.
The seven Letters to the Churches in Rev 2 -3 have actually five main parts to each of them.
1.heading
2.acknowledgement of the Churches deeds
3.their faults
4.what to do to fix those faults
5.Ending
I will use Ephesus as our example:
The first part of each letter: the Heading one might say:
rev 2:1..."2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;"
#1. There are 7 different headings or what Jesus tells us of himself and to what Church He was writing to. And Seven Different Endings.
Rev. 2: 2-3: 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:3. And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted."
#2. He tells them something Good about them or NOT?
Rev 2:4-5..."4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
#3. He tells them something BAD about them or NOT?
Rev 2:6 .."6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate."
#4. He tells the what they need to continue to do or other statements.
Rev 2:7.."7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
#5. The Ending. Here Jesus is talking to not only the members of the Church but you and I also. That is if you have any ears. "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
The 7 letters are virtually the same except starting at the fourth church Thyatira. Prior to this the "He that Hath an EAR" is in the body of the letter. Starting at the fourth letter and for all the rest of the letters, these words are as a footnote.
Now there is one more part that is present if you look for it.
The Seven Churches were Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodiceans were among the hundreds of churches that were in that time period. Then ask yourself WHY?? did Jesus pick these churches.
Well it seems that these Churches are also Prophetic as well. Each Church represents a Church era through till today.
Of course the first being Ephesus is an easy one.
Smymrna represents the persecution of Christians that took place in the 60's AD. Pay special attention to this CHurches letter...Jesus has Nothing Bad to say about it.
Pergamos represents the time period when the Roman Gov. and the Church came together (Church and State--Constantine)
Thyatira represent the era of the one Church (RCC) from its middle to the reformation era. Pay special attention here as this church has "Rev 2:22.:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds."
Sardis represents the era of apostasy in the Church NOTE: there is nothing Good said about Sardis
Philadelphia represent the Bible era where the "Body of Christ" reigned. NOTE: there were NO Bad things mentioned.
Laodiceans represent the present day churches. Megachurches, the Melding of the RCC and many many other evangelical churches, etc...NOTE: There is nothing Good said about this church
Keep this in mind, that if these SEVEN (there that seven is again) Churches were in any other order the prophetic insights above could not happen.
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One more point, I think you might want to consider:
Each of the last four letters : Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodiceans have a reference to the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.
The First three do not. WHY?
As far as the 7 Ages of the Churches, it is my opinion that the above represent just that. I have not put dates on the era as they are varying from History book to history book. But the era(s) are still there.
Revelation is OUR FUTURE. In one way or the other, the writings of Revelation will touch every person on earth and It is the only Book that promises a : Rev 1:3 "3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."
In otherwords, one cannot simply read it, symbolize it and push into the past as most Churches are doing nowdays. SO SAD.
Can't hear you Plainword...Your about as far out there as one can get..... I doubt if you will ever get back in time. if you know what I mean.
Time for what? A 2,000 year old great tribulation? Do you also stay up late on Christmas Eve waiting for Santa
?
Well much of Revelation is far too literal for some. You make some bold and unwise statements regarding this book of the bible.
Revelation is not milk but strong meat. Don't give up on Revelation and write it off as figurative. All the things in Revelation will come to pass. There will be a literal 1000 year kingdom on earth with Christ seated on the throne of David.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
"also represents the entire church period = its written no where. church ages are no where. they were real churches in asia at the time, whatever happened to that literal interpretation u see???? now u are just adding tings in there.