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Brian_Graham
Guest
LoveGodForever -- "Who is sitting on the great white throne": Of course your picture shows Pope Francis. But is it the great white throne in Rev. 20:11? Doubtful. I see no evidence that Pope Francis "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." I see the absolute monarch of the Vatican State sitting on a throne. I have also seen Queen Elizabeth II sitting on a throne, along with 42 or other monarchs in the world today, some of whom also sit on white thrones albeit decorated with god leaf and sometimes red pillow.
"What Church is arrayed in purple and red color": Interestingly, your first picture shows Pope Benedict XVI (in red and white) with Dr. Rowan Williams (in purple), the Archbishop of Canterbury -- the head of the Anglican Communion. When John introduces the Whore in Revelation 17, her description could refer to a number of things, but the symbolic designation "Babylon" narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Catholic Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon"; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. The fact that the Catholic Church is singled out by some Fundamentalists as the Whore reveals that they intuit the fact it has an important role in God’s plan. No other church gets accused of being the Whore -- only the Catholic Church. And it is understandable why: The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body, larger than all other Christian bodies put together, suggesting a prominent place in God’s plan. Some Fundamentalists assume, without objectively looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ, so it must be the Whore of Babylon.
"And having a golden cup": Just because I could, I did a search in the Revised Standard Version translation of the Bible online for "abomination". Of the sixty-seven times that the word "abomination" is used in the Bible (RSV), only twice does it appear in the New Testament. Of the sixty-five occurrences of the word in the Old Testament, five refer to something as being an abomination to other people. Thirteen of the things labelled "abominations" are dietary restrictions, the observation of which would bar a person from consuming such things as clam chowder, shrimp and, one of my personal favourites, the non-existent "four-legged insect," which certainly refers to something besides what we call "insects." Seventeen refer to improper sacrifice, although I am hard pressed to think of a single Christian or Jewish congregation or synagogue that slaughters animals on their altars these days. Outright adultery and adultery caused by divorce, which is prohibited by the Bible even though it is a widespread practice today, account for three of the verses. In addition, the comment by Jesus in Luke, the love of money is decried as an abomination in two Old Testament passages. Four related verses cite dishonest trading practices as abominations. Twelve other verses list behaviors ranging from murder to women wearing "anything that pertains to a man" (for example, pants). Eight passages, including one from Revelation, are not clear about what they mean by "abomination." Precisely two refer to homosexual behaviour. So, pray tell, exactly what "abominations" are contained in the cup?
On Revelation 13:16-18: I love Strong's talent in manipulating words and numbers. If one set of codes doesn't work, try another, and another, until your total is 666. But on precisely whose forehead or hand did the 666 appear? Finding words that add up to 666 is the easy part. Finding the Mark of the Beast on someone's forehead or hand is the key, however, in that verse, not how many words you can make add up to the number.
"What Church is arrayed in purple and red color": Interestingly, your first picture shows Pope Benedict XVI (in red and white) with Dr. Rowan Williams (in purple), the Archbishop of Canterbury -- the head of the Anglican Communion. When John introduces the Whore in Revelation 17, her description could refer to a number of things, but the symbolic designation "Babylon" narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Catholic Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon"; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. The fact that the Catholic Church is singled out by some Fundamentalists as the Whore reveals that they intuit the fact it has an important role in God’s plan. No other church gets accused of being the Whore -- only the Catholic Church. And it is understandable why: The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body, larger than all other Christian bodies put together, suggesting a prominent place in God’s plan. Some Fundamentalists assume, without objectively looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ, so it must be the Whore of Babylon.
"And having a golden cup": Just because I could, I did a search in the Revised Standard Version translation of the Bible online for "abomination". Of the sixty-seven times that the word "abomination" is used in the Bible (RSV), only twice does it appear in the New Testament. Of the sixty-five occurrences of the word in the Old Testament, five refer to something as being an abomination to other people. Thirteen of the things labelled "abominations" are dietary restrictions, the observation of which would bar a person from consuming such things as clam chowder, shrimp and, one of my personal favourites, the non-existent "four-legged insect," which certainly refers to something besides what we call "insects." Seventeen refer to improper sacrifice, although I am hard pressed to think of a single Christian or Jewish congregation or synagogue that slaughters animals on their altars these days. Outright adultery and adultery caused by divorce, which is prohibited by the Bible even though it is a widespread practice today, account for three of the verses. In addition, the comment by Jesus in Luke, the love of money is decried as an abomination in two Old Testament passages. Four related verses cite dishonest trading practices as abominations. Twelve other verses list behaviors ranging from murder to women wearing "anything that pertains to a man" (for example, pants). Eight passages, including one from Revelation, are not clear about what they mean by "abomination." Precisely two refer to homosexual behaviour. So, pray tell, exactly what "abominations" are contained in the cup?
On Revelation 13:16-18: I love Strong's talent in manipulating words and numbers. If one set of codes doesn't work, try another, and another, until your total is 666. But on precisely whose forehead or hand did the 666 appear? Finding words that add up to 666 is the easy part. Finding the Mark of the Beast on someone's forehead or hand is the key, however, in that verse, not how many words you can make add up to the number.
The judgements of God from Genesis to Revelation have only ever been given to man because or sin (Breaking God's Commandments). As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be with the coming of the son of man. Breaking God's Law brings the Mark when it is forced on mankind through the penalty of death (Revelations 13; 14; 17). The RCC is indeed the Whore of Revelations 17 whose name is Babylon; She is indeed the Mother Church and the Mother of Harlots (Protestantism).
God however, has his people in all these Churches and is calling all who hear His voice to come out of these fallen Churches to worship him in Spirit and in truth. Those that have an ear to hear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches..
We must obey the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. For those that want more information you can find it here.
Who should we obey God or man?
The Pope is one of the many antichrists most likely one of the highest .The Pope apposes God by claiming to be in the place of God an infallible interpreter... the mediator between God and man .The scriptures refer to that as a daysman. It comes when men try and make our supernatural (without a beginning) God who remains without form into a man as us therefore having a beginning. Making what they call Mary a queen of heaven as a mother of that beginning as a source of mercy, into the mother of all who believe the Pope.. their perceived infallible interpreter. . In the end of the matter it simply makes the word of God without effect, powerless to quicken ones soul .
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Brian_Graham
Guest
Please explain why I should respond to your question when you refused to extend a similar courtesy to me by choosing to deflect with one of your pre-packaged statements rather than discuss, well, anything? "The RCC is indeed the Whore of Revelations 17 whose name is Babylon; She is indeed the Mother Church and the Mother of Harlots (Protestantism)"? But not all of Protestantism believes that. You've proven yourself adept at learning by rote, with little, if any, research or deep thought.
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Brian_Graham
Guest
It's clear you are simply repeating what you've been told to believe. You repeatedly use the words "infallible interpreter" with no understanding of the meaning or context in terms of Catholic doctrine of "papal infallibility". But I understand: It's very time-consuming to do actual research about what various denominations hold to be true in their doctrines. Much easier to hold to fabrications and half-truths. As I wrote before: "Some Fundamentalists assume, without objectively looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ, so it must be the Whore of Babylon."
You're digging up dinosaur bones.
Scotth1960 was last active on this website on November 22nd, 2011, so good luck with getting a response.
Heck, good luck at getting his attention or his acknowledgment.
Friend,
I responded to you. It was not a pre-packaged statement. You make many claims but none founded in the truth.....
Who should we believe God or man?
You do not have to answer it is between you and God. For me I will believe God's Word over the words of man because it is written; If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
2 Thesalonians 2:4 “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
I witnessed my biological grandmother, along with many people, bow down and worship the pope, yet I refused to when told to, even though I was a kid. I witnessed, in person, that he greatly accepted this worship, without correcting the people.
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Brian_Graham
Guest
Most early Protestant Reformers believed, and the modern Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches, that in Bible prophecy a woman represents a church. Identification of the Pope as the Antichrist was written into Protestant creeds such as the Westminster Confession of 1646. Like many reformation-era Protestant leaders, the writings of Ellen G. White also describe the Catholic Church as a fallen church, and it plays a nefarious eschatological role as the antagonist against God's true church and that the pope is the Antichrist. In case you are not aware, Ellen Gould White was a prolific author and an American Christian pioneer who, along with other Sabbatarian Adventist leaders such as Joseph Bates and her husband James White, formed what became known as the Seventh Day Adventist Church. The identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon is kept in the Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified "ecclesiastical Babylon" with "apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy"). And even seemingly religious popes could become so entangled in worldly pursuits as to constitute "Babylon," in Dante's eyes. Dante equated the corruption and simony of the pontificate of Pope Boniface VIII with the Whore of Babylon in Canto 19 of his Inferno. And those 16[SUP]th[/SUP] and 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century views are held today by some more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Whore of Babylon represents "the world empire of false religion", referring to all other religious groups including but not limited to Christendom, which they use to refer to "professed Christianity" as opposed to their own "true Christianity". So, unless you are JW, that would include you.
Judging by the criteria of biblical fundamentalism (literal words, literally understood) it is certain that there is no mention of the Catholic Church in the Book of Revelation as the Whore of Babylon. By contortions of interpretation (not biblical literalism) some groups and individuals equate the Whore in Revelation 17:9 with the Catholic Church since Rome is the famous city of seven hills and the Church's principal See is Rome. This position is untenable, both factually and from only the words of Scripture which tell us of the actual doctrine of the Antichrist, those of the Apostle John in his letters. So, there would seem to be two choices, either interpret Rev 17:9 absolutely literally or according to some interpretive key that is metaphorical, allegorical or otherwise non-literal. To which of these do you subscribe?
But your views on the interpretation of Revelation are not held by a majority of mainstream Protestant denominations. My statements and claims were made based on the same Bible texts (the truth) as yours, and based on the writings of Christian theologians dating back to Augustine of Hippo (354-430) and including notable Christian theologians of the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century.
You wrote: I will believe God's Word over the words of man because it is written; If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
I agree. And based on what you have written, I do not question the sincerity of your faith. You, on the other hand, seem to have a predilection for condemning the faith of the largest sect in Christendom -- the Catholic Church. And in doing so, you dismiss out of hand the faith of the estimated 1.2-billion Catholics around the world simply because they receive God's word differently than you. I draw your attention to Romans 11:34 and 1 Corinthians 2:11. My opinion is that humans are incapable of knowing what God thinks. According to Christian doctrine, His mind is infinite, ours … not so much. We humans lack the ability to understand the infinite. I think I'd rather aim to follow God's word in the Bible, and strive to make my little corner of the world a better place when I leave it than it was when I arrived. And I'll leave it to God, in his infinite wisdom, to sort out who was correct in their interpretation.
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Brian_Graham
Guest
This is is one of the definition of worship from Merrimack Webster
4:4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
- worship of the dollar
so so basically worship is respect
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923 - “Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.”[/FONT]
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Brian_Graham
Guest
Nice try: "basically"? Read it again. It says "extravagant respect or devotion to an object of esteem".
I was unable to find "Merrimack Webster", but in Merriam-Webster it adds for 2 and 3:
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence.3:a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual.
Now for respect:
2: an act of giving particular attention (consideration) 3: high or special regard (esteem).
So basically, worship is a form of extravagant respect, but not all respect is worship.
- We respect or honour our parents, we do not worship them.
- When the Japanese bow, it is out of respect for another human being.
- When some Christians hold their Bible and bow their heads in prayer, they are worshipping God, not the Bible.
I'm amazed when some people determine, without asking the intentions of those involved, that people who bow to the Pope are doing so in worship rather than out of simple respect.
If you have that ability to know what people are thinking, might I suggest you audition for a show of your own in Las Vegas?
You'd be a hit.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Worship is word #H5647[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]עָבַד [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]- ‛âbad, aw-bad'; A primitive root; to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.:— X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.[/FONT]
Some japanese worship their parent, they put a picture on a table after they parent die, give them some fruit and pray to her parent soul. Catholic make statue of Mary and bow in front of her statue.
I do not know why the Bible prohibit to bow to statue, may be bow mean worship
exodus 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shaltnot bow down theyself them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;