Not By Works
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You said it, not me, lol.
I believe that anybody who lives a life of willful sin, because they think grace allows them to do that, has either never been truly born again, or has fallen away from believing and are lost. So I agree that making grace a license to sin an actual practiced lifestyle is not what people who continue to believe in Christ do. Only unbelievers and ex-believers do that. The sad part being, they think they are saved.
More accurately, continued trust in Christ is the sign of a continuing conversion.
Well, you're certainly entitled to believe this horribly insecure doctrine. You folks can never know if you're truly born again until all opportunities to test you and see if you'll persevere have been exhausted. Which means you can never know if you are truly born again in this life. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security.
On the other hand, the Biblical doctrine of security is that you are eternally secure as long as you are believing. It's that simple. Keep believing so you will stay secure in the life of Christ that will never end. He is worthy of such trust, so don't give up trusting. That is what the Bible actually teaches.
It's interesting in your doctrine that God is strong enough to keep you saved but not strong enough to keep you in his love, I mean assuming those are two different things entirely. Of course, they have to be two different things entirely in your doctrine, or else your doctrine can't be true. That's not a good way to interpret the Bible. It's the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument. It goes like this: He can't be talking about continuing in God's love in salvation because one can never lose their salvation. That's called circular reasoning. I see it all the time in OSAS arguments.
No, they weren't. Why are you asking this? Are you now suggesting 'keeping yourself in God's love' IS a salvation issue??? You just got done saying it wasn't.
Yes. Paul says in Galatians 5:4 that what they were doing would result in Christ being of no use to them in justification, a fall from grace, so, yes, he did say this is a salvation issue. Of course, we know ultimately, they did not do that. But if they had decided to turn back to the law they would have in fact lost their justification. There would be no need for Paul to warn the church about this matter of turning back to the law to be justified if it did not result in a loss of justification in Christ. Think about it.
It's the stubborn, conscious decision to turn away from Christ that causes one to lose their justification in Christ, not the temptations and struggles of being in the faith. If the person toying with abandoning Christ responds to correction they will remain saved. If they choose to ignore correction and willfully abandon Christ, they will lose their justification.
Obviously, Peter heeded Paul's correction and made no permanent, willful decision to go back to trust in the law for justification. The temptation to do so is not what condemns. Willfully and stubbornly doing that does.
Right, he's not saying 'do acts of love'. He's exhorting the church to stay in the love of God in Christ. Just as Paul does, similarly, in Romans 11:22 when he talks about continuing in the kindness of God or risk being cut out of the tree for reason of unbelief.
It's funny how you can say this and it doesn't mean a works gospel, but if I say the exact same thing I'm called an unsaved person trying to save myself.
I don't see it as a works gospel either, because continuing in God's love and kindness by believing in Christ is not the definition of the works gospel.
I believe that anybody who lives a life of willful sin, because they think grace allows them to do that, has either never been truly born again, or has fallen away from believing and are lost. So I agree that making grace a license to sin an actual practiced lifestyle is not what people who continue to believe in Christ do. Only unbelievers and ex-believers do that. The sad part being, they think they are saved.
More accurately, continued trust in Christ is the sign of a continuing conversion.
Well, you're certainly entitled to believe this horribly insecure doctrine. You folks can never know if you're truly born again until all opportunities to test you and see if you'll persevere have been exhausted. Which means you can never know if you are truly born again in this life. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security.
On the other hand, the Biblical doctrine of security is that you are eternally secure as long as you are believing. It's that simple. Keep believing so you will stay secure in the life of Christ that will never end. He is worthy of such trust, so don't give up trusting. That is what the Bible actually teaches.
It's interesting in your doctrine that God is strong enough to keep you saved but not strong enough to keep you in his love, I mean assuming those are two different things entirely. Of course, they have to be two different things entirely in your doctrine, or else your doctrine can't be true. That's not a good way to interpret the Bible. It's the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument. It goes like this: He can't be talking about continuing in God's love in salvation because one can never lose their salvation. That's called circular reasoning. I see it all the time in OSAS arguments.
No, they weren't. Why are you asking this? Are you now suggesting 'keeping yourself in God's love' IS a salvation issue??? You just got done saying it wasn't.
Yes. Paul says in Galatians 5:4 that what they were doing would result in Christ being of no use to them in justification, a fall from grace, so, yes, he did say this is a salvation issue. Of course, we know ultimately, they did not do that. But if they had decided to turn back to the law they would have in fact lost their justification. There would be no need for Paul to warn the church about this matter of turning back to the law to be justified if it did not result in a loss of justification in Christ. Think about it.
It's the stubborn, conscious decision to turn away from Christ that causes one to lose their justification in Christ, not the temptations and struggles of being in the faith. If the person toying with abandoning Christ responds to correction they will remain saved. If they choose to ignore correction and willfully abandon Christ, they will lose their justification.
Obviously, Peter heeded Paul's correction and made no permanent, willful decision to go back to trust in the law for justification. The temptation to do so is not what condemns. Willfully and stubbornly doing that does.
Right, he's not saying 'do acts of love'. He's exhorting the church to stay in the love of God in Christ. Just as Paul does, similarly, in Romans 11:22 when he talks about continuing in the kindness of God or risk being cut out of the tree for reason of unbelief.
It's funny how you can say this and it doesn't mean a works gospel, but if I say the exact same thing I'm called an unsaved person trying to save myself.
I don't see it as a works gospel either, because continuing in God's love and kindness by believing in Christ is not the definition of the works gospel.
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Nobody said Christ does not keep you saved. Christ does keep you saved, THROUGH YOUR TRUST IN HIM.
Salvation comes through something. It does not come through nothing as the church now believes. The power of God for salvation comes to you through your faith in Christ, not through nothing at all, or else you're trying to save yourself. How absurd! Believing is not a work of the damnable works gospel, lol. Paul CONTRASTS believing (present tense) with works for justification. But you keep equating them. YOU are the one with the false gospel. Not me. YOU are the one directly contradicting Romans 4:5 that says believing is what justifies, in stark and utter contrast to works.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:5 NASB)
Stop telling people their present tense believing is on the side of works! Read the verse!
Salvation comes through something. It does not come through nothing as the church now believes. The power of God for salvation comes to you through your faith in Christ, not through nothing at all, or else you're trying to save yourself. How absurd! Believing is not a work of the damnable works gospel, lol. Paul CONTRASTS believing (present tense) with works for justification. But you keep equating them. YOU are the one with the false gospel. Not me. YOU are the one directly contradicting Romans 4:5 that says believing is what justifies, in stark and utter contrast to works.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness..." (Romans 4:5 NASB)
Stop telling people their present tense believing is on the side of works! Read the verse!
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So wouldn't it be that the one who is actually denying ungodliness and worldly lusts is actually the one who has God's grace? But instead, in this thread, those who are denying ungodliness are being accused of not having the grace of God and are working for their salvation. So many in the church have this distorted reasoning. The church has fallen a long way. We're in a bad place. And I think it's because we're very near the end.
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I understand perfectly that God begins, finishes, and completes salvation THROUGH FAITH. The promises are contingent on believing. If you stop believing, you stop having the power of God for the Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5).
You and countless others got led astray into this weird doctrine gripping the church by misguided and uneducated and Spirit-less teachers who started teaching that justification was completely unconditional. Justification is not unconditional. It is conditioned on believing. What Paul said is it is not conditioned on works.
You and countless others got led astray into this weird doctrine gripping the church by misguided and uneducated and Spirit-less teachers who started teaching that justification was completely unconditional. Justification is not unconditional. It is conditioned on believing. What Paul said is it is not conditioned on works.
NO IT IS NOT.
Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 3:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:24 (ASV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 5:8-10 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
Romans 3:20 (CSBBible)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For no one will be justified in his sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
1 Corinthians 4:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For I am not conscious of anything against myself, but I am not justified by this. The One who evaluates me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 6:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
WE ARE JUSTIFIED BECAUSE OF WHAT CHRIST DID, NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING WE DO OR DON'T DO.
Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 3:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:24 (ASV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 5:8-10 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
Romans 3:20 (CSBBible)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For no one will be justified in his sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.
1 Corinthians 4:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For I am not conscious of anything against myself, but I am not justified by this. The One who evaluates me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 6:11 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
WE ARE JUSTIFIED BECAUSE OF WHAT CHRIST DID, NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING WE DO OR DON'T DO.
Hi Decon, this false grace movement has been going on in the church for years.
False Grace Movement in the Church today
This movement’s ignorance of what grace is causes them to spend their time trying to become more holy.
They believe that God will relate to them based on their good works.
They pay lip service to the fact that God has forgiven all sin but really they don’t believe it because they live constantly in fear of sinning.
Here are some ways you can spot this false grace
False Grace: Elevates Works Over Faith
God has forgiven us but our actions determine the depth of relationship we can have with Him.
In Christ, God sees you as righteous and holy but you are still a sinner beneath the surface, you must try to become more holy and righteous.
Requires a constant study of what is right and wrong (most sermons will be about what you should do, not about Jesus). There is lots of shame, guilt and subtle punishment in the form of “discipline” when you fail to do what’s right.
Identity is rooted in our actions.
Says – “I am a sinner”.
False Grace: Focuses On Our Attempts To Be Intimate With God
The Christian life is all about getting closer to God. We must try to grow closer in relationship with God, which is a 24/7 job.
We must become more hungry and aware of how much we lack God so that we can press in, by prayer, fasting and trying to be more holy – so that we can start to grow closer to God.
Is desperate for more of God, never satisfied and constantly aware of a lack
Is focused upon a growth towards God that comes from striving, a growth from lack towards less lack but never complete
Believes that God’s presence only shows up when we corporately please Him, with our worship, prayers, fasting and combined hunger.
Attribute:http://www.phildrysdale.com
False Grace Movement in the Church today
This movement’s ignorance of what grace is causes them to spend their time trying to become more holy.
They believe that God will relate to them based on their good works.
They pay lip service to the fact that God has forgiven all sin but really they don’t believe it because they live constantly in fear of sinning.
Here are some ways you can spot this false grace
False Grace: Elevates Works Over Faith
God has forgiven us but our actions determine the depth of relationship we can have with Him.
In Christ, God sees you as righteous and holy but you are still a sinner beneath the surface, you must try to become more holy and righteous.
Requires a constant study of what is right and wrong (most sermons will be about what you should do, not about Jesus). There is lots of shame, guilt and subtle punishment in the form of “discipline” when you fail to do what’s right.
Identity is rooted in our actions.
Says – “I am a sinner”.
False Grace: Focuses On Our Attempts To Be Intimate With God
The Christian life is all about getting closer to God. We must try to grow closer in relationship with God, which is a 24/7 job.
We must become more hungry and aware of how much we lack God so that we can press in, by prayer, fasting and trying to be more holy – so that we can start to grow closer to God.
Is desperate for more of God, never satisfied and constantly aware of a lack
Is focused upon a growth towards God that comes from striving, a growth from lack towards less lack but never complete
Believes that God’s presence only shows up when we corporately please Him, with our worship, prayers, fasting and combined hunger.
Attribute:http://www.phildrysdale.com
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you are very kind. (make it a double, please? 
)
i guess if "NOT BY WORKS" can't be understood in all these pages, to say nothing of the clear teaching of the Scriptures, there's not much i can do to effect change.
who'da thunk the Gospel would be so hard to grasp, eh? lol
)i guess if "NOT BY WORKS" can't be understood in all these pages, to say nothing of the clear teaching of the Scriptures, there's not much i can do to effect change.
who'da thunk the Gospel would be so hard to grasp, eh? lol
approach, and we hope you can stay a while longer.
Law vs. grace—why is there so much conflict among Christians on the issue?
Answer: One side says, “Salvation is by grace and grace alone.” The other side counters, “That idea leads to lawlessness. God’s righteous standard in the Law must be upheld.” And someone else chimes in with, “Salvation is by grace, but grace only comes to those who obey God’s Law.” At the root of the debate are differing views on the basis of salvation. The importance of the issue helps fuel the intensity of the discussion.
We are saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The keeping of the Law cannot save anyone (Romans 3:20; Titus 3:5). In fact, those who claim righteousness on the basis of their keeping of the Law only think they’re keeping the Law; this was one of Jesus’ main points in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:20–48; see also Luke 18:18–23).
By New Testament times, the religious leaders had hijacked the Law and added to it their own rules and traditions (Mark 7:7–9).
While the Law itself was good, it was weak in that it lacked the power to change a sinful heart (Romans 8:3).
Keeping the Law, as interpreted by the Pharisees, had become an oppressive and overwhelming burden (Luke 11:46).
Conflict between “grace” and the “Law” can arise when someone ;
1) misunderstands the purpose of the Law;
2) redefines grace as something other than “God’s benevolence on the undeserving” (see Romans 11:6);
3) tries to earn his own salvation or “supplement” Christ’s sacrifice;
4) follows the error of the Pharisees in tacking manmade rituals and traditions onto his doctrine; or
5) fails to focus on the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).
Attribute: https://www.gotquestions.org/law-vs-grace.html
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One more time:
You both believe in the blood of Christ, because both of you believe that no man is made righteous by his own deeds, so how does grace make it so you can drive over the speed limit without being condemned, but they are condemned for going over the speed limit? What's the difference between the two of you? Why are you condemning them for going 2 mph over the speed limit but not yourself? You both believe the exact same thing that it is only through faith in the blood of Christ that one can be righteous.
You both believe in the blood of Christ, because both of you believe that no man is made righteous by his own deeds, so how does grace make it so you can drive over the speed limit without being condemned, but they are condemned for going over the speed limit? What's the difference between the two of you? Why are you condemning them for going 2 mph over the speed limit but not yourself? You both believe the exact same thing that it is only through faith in the blood of Christ that one can be righteous.
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We all know that justification is not conditional on works. How does your post show that justification is not conditional on faith? Paul said justification is conditioned on faith, not on works (Romans 4:5). Does leaving the parts of the Bible out about the necessity for faith somehow make justification conditional on nothing at all?
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Hi again notmyown, yes you are so right, "who'da thunk", tis a continuing saga since the day Cain killed Able, appropriately named, "Cainology." You have a, "more gentler and kinder"
approach, and we hope you can stay a while longer.
Law vs. grace—why is there so much conflict among Christians on the issue?
Answer: One side says, “Salvation is by grace and grace alone.” The other side counters, “That idea leads to lawlessness. God’s righteous standard in the Law must be upheld.” And someone else chimes in with, “Salvation is by grace, but grace only comes to those who obey God’s Law.” At the root of the debate are differing views on the basis of salvation. The importance of the issue helps fuel the intensity of the discussion.
We are saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The keeping of the Law cannot save anyone (Romans 3:20; Titus 3:5). In fact, those who claim righteousness on the basis of their keeping of the Law only think they’re keeping the Law; this was one of Jesus’ main points in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:20–48; see also Luke 18:18–23).
By New Testament times, the religious leaders had hijacked the Law and added to it their own rules and traditions (Mark 7:7–9).
While the Law itself was good, it was weak in that it lacked the power to change a sinful heart (Romans 8:3).
Keeping the Law, as interpreted by the Pharisees, had become an oppressive and overwhelming burden (Luke 11:46).
Conflict between “grace” and the “Law” can arise when someone ;
1) misunderstands the purpose of the Law;
2) redefines grace as something other than “God’s benevolence on the undeserving” (see Romans 11:6);
3) tries to earn his own salvation or “supplement” Christ’s sacrifice;
4) follows the error of the Pharisees in tacking manmade rituals and traditions onto his doctrine; or
5) fails to focus on the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).
Attribute: https://www.gotquestions.org/law-vs-grace.html
approach, and we hope you can stay a while longer.
Law vs. grace—why is there so much conflict among Christians on the issue?
Answer: One side says, “Salvation is by grace and grace alone.” The other side counters, “That idea leads to lawlessness. God’s righteous standard in the Law must be upheld.” And someone else chimes in with, “Salvation is by grace, but grace only comes to those who obey God’s Law.” At the root of the debate are differing views on the basis of salvation. The importance of the issue helps fuel the intensity of the discussion.
We are saved by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The keeping of the Law cannot save anyone (Romans 3:20; Titus 3:5). In fact, those who claim righteousness on the basis of their keeping of the Law only think they’re keeping the Law; this was one of Jesus’ main points in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:20–48; see also Luke 18:18–23).
By New Testament times, the religious leaders had hijacked the Law and added to it their own rules and traditions (Mark 7:7–9).
While the Law itself was good, it was weak in that it lacked the power to change a sinful heart (Romans 8:3).
Keeping the Law, as interpreted by the Pharisees, had become an oppressive and overwhelming burden (Luke 11:46).
Conflict between “grace” and the “Law” can arise when someone ;
1) misunderstands the purpose of the Law;
2) redefines grace as something other than “God’s benevolence on the undeserving” (see Romans 11:6);
3) tries to earn his own salvation or “supplement” Christ’s sacrifice;
4) follows the error of the Pharisees in tacking manmade rituals and traditions onto his doctrine; or
5) fails to focus on the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).
Attribute: https://www.gotquestions.org/law-vs-grace.html
What is especially disturbing is calling those who don't willfully drive over the speed limit the one's who don't have the grace of God in their lives. We live in such a watered down, defeated church that when we see someone denying ungodliness because of the grace of God they instantly think he's being self righteous and condemn him for his obedience instead of rejoicing with him that by the grace of God he is not sinning. We live in a time when praise for God's grace is only given when it is abounding all the more in the abundance of sin and not when it is keeping someone from sin (Titus 2:11-12). These are bad times for the church we live in.
You stand as judge saying this, none can judge me but Yah.
James 4:11, "Brothers, do not speak against one another. He that speaks against a brother and judges his brother, speaks against the Law and judges the Law. And if you judge the Law, you are not a doer of the Law but a judge."
All have sinned, this in itself does not mean we are or are not condemmed;
1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
We are all guilty no matter if we think we should follow or not;
Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”
Some feel bad and seek to repent when they transgress and others defend their transgressions;
Romans 2:15, “Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their consciencealso bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin).”
Some have the Law written on their hearts and others are in enmity to it.
Psalm 119:151-152, “You are near, O יהוה, And all Your commands are truth. Of old I have known Your witnesses, That You have founded them forever.”
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it his not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."
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I think it's because you folks are actually the one's with the 'Cainology' doctrine, not them. Cain murdered his righteous brother Abel because his own deeds were evil while his brother's were righteous:
I believe the hatred in the church toward those who have victory over sin through the grace of God is because the church does not know the grace of God in the deliverance from unrighteous deeds for herself. If she did, she would be rejoicing with them in their victory over sin, not hating them for it and calling them self righteous.
"12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous." (1 John 3:12 NASB)
I believe the hatred in the church toward those who have victory over sin through the grace of God is because the church does not know the grace of God in the deliverance from unrighteous deeds for herself. If she did, she would be rejoicing with them in their victory over sin, not hating them for it and calling them self righteous.