Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Originally Posted by kennethleehutch

Not lose salvation, give it up. Some believe they have salvation but there is no proof in their life. The Bible says you will know a tree by its fruit. If there is no fruit such as the fig tree then they will be cursed just as the fig tree.



Bolded = false

Saved believers can also have works of wood, hay and stubble which get burnt to a crisp and yet they are saved

The Corinthian fornicator SAVED, but cut lose for the destruction of the flesh yet SPIRIT saved in day of CHRIST

The prodigal squandered his inheritance through riotous living and ended up with the pigs yet still a son through the whole process, received, given a robe and ring

AND...lest we forget...ONE who has believed ALREADY has done the works of the Heavenly Father (believed on the one who was sent)


How is what is bolded false? One can give up their salvation but you can not lose it.

Salvation is eternal...end of story....it cannot be forfeit, lost or given up....JESUS will FINISH and COMPLETE the work of faith HE BEGAN.....and even if we BELIEVE NOT after belief he ABIDES FAITHFUL and CANNOT DENY HIMSELF....it is the SPIRIT that is born again by God's Spirit, SAVED to the UTTERMOST and KEPT BY HIS POWER......

 

[stonesoffire]

I've seen this one obeyed here often at this forum.

Speaking of the command to wash one another's feet.

 

[dcontroversal]

I just can not understand how some people believe they can earn salvation or keep themselves saved when they fail every day at the simplest of task.

Deceived is the word....and placing trust or emphasis upon self instead of Christ and his promises.....

 

[Seohce]

New International Version 1984 Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 The Parable of the Weeds Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” The Parable of the Weeds Explained Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

 

[stonesoffire]

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

Could you tell me what John 14:15 means?

I don't think we're here to discuss my children, although you could also comment on
Mathew 21:28-32
Which son did the Father's will?

I could tell you but you will only reject it.

"If you love me you will keep my commands"

Does not say that a failure on our part means we abandon Him. You added that.
Makes no mention What God will do if you fail.

No doubt you have convinced yourself that you always keep every commandment of God.

 

[dcontroversal]

So your eternal salvation is up to you. That is exactly what you are saying. It is all in your hands. That is sad.
I thank God that my eternal salvation is in Christ Jesus. Totally, completely, 100%. and NO man can take it away. Not even me.

AMEN...and if it were possible (which it is not) what fool in his right mind would want to give back eternal life, salvation and end up cooking in the proverbial lake-o-fire........

 

[Romans614]

Could you tell me what John 14:15 means?

?

Its strange, but a lot of people quote John 14:15 who do not even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ.
It seems to me, that would be insisting of others what one does not demand of oneself. That would not be loving others would it. And if we don't love others we cannot fulfil the law of Christ/obey his commands:

Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2

 

[dcontroversal]

Hebrews 6:4-6New International Version (NIV)

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

We can turn away once we were saved.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT and I must say CONTEXT.....this does not teach the loss or forfeiture of salvation......

 

[dcontroversal]

Not understanding eternal security is evident in the poster.
I guess you do not understand either.

She makes me think of another previous member.........who also used young girls as her avatar on occasion......just saying and funny thing....she did not buy eternal security and pushed sinless perfectionism as well

 

[dcontroversal]

I believe in eternal security.
Eternal security lies in the life Jesus gives us.
If we have Jesus, we have life...
If we don't have Jesus we do not have eternal life.
If we don't obey Jesus it means we do not love Him and thus have abandoned Him.
John 14:15

What does this verse mean to You?[/QUOTE]

Very familiar quote from a past member.........

 

[kennethleehutch]

CONTEXT, CONTEXT and I must say CONTEXT.....this does not teach the loss or forfeiture of salvation......

If it is not talking about salvation then please enlighten me to what it is talking about.

 

[TruthTalk]

What does this verse mean to You?

Very familiar quote from a past member.........

Will the real "Jane Doe", please stand up.

 

[TruthTalk]

She makes me think of another previous member.........who also used young girls as her avatar on occasion......just saying and funny thing....she did not buy eternal security and pushed sinless perfectionism as well

And she continuously asked if we could give her the "meaning" of scripture, just so she could put her "vanilla cafe latte spin" on her fake theory's. And her script never went to the end of the page just short choppy demanding little phrases. The drama is back, sound familiar?

Quote: Littlegirl, Post #32198

"Could you tell me what John 14:15 means?"

"I don't think we're here to discuss my children, although you could also comment on
Mathew 21:28-32
Which son did the Father's will?​

 

[dcontroversal]

If it is not talking about salvation then please enlighten me to what it is talking about.

The context is believers going on to maturity and the evidence of those things that accompany maturity and salvation <---THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK verses 1-3 and verse 9........the whole book is directed at those who wanted to go back under an inferior way and to an inferior priesthood.......and the very text you cite states clearly that it is IMPOSSIBLE to fall away and then be renewed unto repentance from dead works by re-crucifying Christ all over again......MOVE ON brothers and MATURE and show this MATURITY by those things which ACCOMPANY SALVATION.....

TO say one can FALL AWAY to the POINT that they lose salvation and must be renewed PUTS CHRIST TO OPEN SHAME....wake up man to what is really being said....

 

[kennethleehutch]

The context is believers going on to maturity and the evidence of those things that accompany maturity and salvation <---THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK verses 1-3 and verse 9........the whole book is directed at those who wanted to go back under an inferior way and to an inferior priesthood.......and the very text you cite states clearly that it is IMPOSSIBLE to fall away and then be renewed unto repentance from dead works by re-crucifying Christ all over again......MOVE ON brothers and MATURE and show this MATURITY by those things which ACCOMPANY SALVATION.....

TO say one can FALL AWAY to the POINT that they lose salvation and must be renewed PUTS CHRIST TO OPEN SHAME....wake up man to what is really being said....

I believe the bible for what it says. Not adding or subtracting or suggesting. It very clearly stated
Impossible to fall away and be renewed again. It does not say impossible to fall away.
Maturity takes the bible for what it says.

 

[PJW]

Sorry i I am confused.
”I cannot break the seal of God, he will keep his promise”
”But I can always walk away from the faith (God forbid) and that my repentance was a lie.
Surely then you are saying that we can break that seal.

It is His gift, so out of my control...in one sense, as it is dependent on me to keep my end of the bargain.
Sorry, but I'm not used to thinking in terms of disobedience..

Given your beliefthat you never commit sin,
Lets say that you walk 30 years and do not commit one sin but then one day you do, you believe that you were actually never saved to begin with because you committed one sin. That’s it, no way back (as you believe).

That thirty years were wasted, and the sin shows who was actually my father all along. (1 JOHN 3:8, 10)

f that is the case then you can break the seal.
Or do you not believe that you are sealed by the Holy Spirit until you die, just in case you committ 1 sin after salvation.
If so To me that doesn’t make sense because why would God give us the Holy Spirit as a down payment.
Yet you missed something out

A sin would show that I never had the Spirit in the first place.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
You missed the emboldened above.

Again, if I sin it shows I never had the "seal".

I guess you may come back with “I will never sin so the Holy Spirit is my seal”.

That would be true, and true.

If so Peter and the others said the same

They didn't receive the Holy Ghost till the day of Pentecost.
They wee not sealed till then.

Matthew 26:35
35 Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!”
And so said all the disciples.
You say that after placing faith in Jesus and being baptized you never sin.

Having the Holy Ghost in you is a strong weapon, but the apostles had yet to receive it.

You have referenced in a post concerning the adulteress woman that when Jesus told her to sin no more then that meant never sin again. You discarded the fact that someone said Jesus was talking about her adulteress life.

It isn't a "fact" to me.
It is somebodies supposition.

The disciples placed their faith in Jesus then let him down big time.
Peter denied him 3 times.
Yet we find Jesus restoring all of them with love and compassion.

Isn't He a wonderful Lord?

To be fair some of what I have said is based on my assumptions of what you say.
You will never sin, a genuine believer will never sin, if they do they were never a believer to start with, even if they comitt one sin after placing their faith in Jesus. And as a result there is no way back.

Back to what?
If they sinned, there was nothing to go back to.
They can, however, start from scratch.

Correct me if I am wrong.
But I do have to say you seem to have contradicted yourself above.
But I suppose only those of us who acknowledge we sin are the only ones who see this.

I pray in Jesus' name that I have cleared up the misunderstanding.

 

[Romans614]

A sin would show that I never had the Spirit in the first place.


Again, if I sin it shows I never had the "seal".


.

Its strange, but some figure if they clean the outside of the cup they don't commit sin. If they obey the law that man can see them obey they don't commit sin.
Paul knew that wasn't the case. He said he was condemned by the law because he was full of all manner of concupiscence. I'm sure saul the Pharisee did not have affairs with women. But, he knew if he could not obey the law relating to the inner man he was a sinner condemned by the law:

Thou shalt not covet/thou shalt not lust/though shalt not have impure thoughts, for example.


Its amazing, some believe they have no sin in them, whilst having impure thoughts. For many dumb the law of God down from the pristine level it is set at to a place they believe they faultlessly obey it/don't commit sin.
John summed it up well:

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
1John1:8

 

[PJW]

I think firstly I would say that you, me and others do not bring people to repentance.
The Holy Spirit does that.
It is he that convicts the world of its sin.

Faith cometh by hearing, so they must hear about and turn to God.
Your scenario makes it look like it is God's fault if a man sins because the Spirit never brought the repentance-faith.[/QUOTE]

And Jesus said that sin is unbelief in him.

Though I agree with that statement, (based on Heb 10:39), I can't remember Jesus ever saying such a thing.
Have you a scripture in mind?

We don’t offer honey, we offer love, Agape love.

Just a metaphor, as in, "you draw more flies with honey than with vinegar".

You say after about 5 posts on this thread it became a street fight.
Have you wandered why?

I know why.
But in the interest of "honeyizing" things, I won't elaborate.

You say “That is a perfect is a perfect time to illustrate what they can do with the power of God in their life and that kind of life that is different from what they are used to”
So given that when you have led people to Jesus do you add a caveat?
Something along the lines of “Now you have come to Jesus don’t sin, if you do then you are not saved and if you do there is no way back?

Everyone that I have brought to Christ knows from the beginning what is expected of them.
It is the reason folks are drawn to Christ. No wishy washy "nobody's perfect" tripe.
There is power in faith in God.
And again, if they leave, they can always come back and be REAL. repentant, lovers of God.

But given that you believe that sins are not forgiven before baptism is it if they sin before baptism it’s forgiven and after that they can’t and won’t be forgiven?

We can't baptize again, as Heb 6:4-6 makes clear.
It is only after a true "turn from" sin that they will receive the Holy Ghost.
Their sin shows they didn't have faith in that prior baptism, so maybe now they do.
Their forgiveness is in God's hands.
Of course we would allow them to return, but they would have a lot of pressure to manifest that they love God above all things.

There is a period of time between faith and baptism.

I don't know.
In the above case, there may be a period of time between baptism and faith.

 

[VCO]

Could you tell me what John 14:15 means?

I don't think we're here to discuss my children, although you could also comment on
Mathew 21:28-32
Which son did the Father's will?

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


FIRST AND FOREMOST: it means the only PURE MOTIVE for Obedience is BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.

SECOND: It shows that Loving Obedience spawns out of the AGAPE LOVE that is in a born again Christian.

THIRD: Where does that kind of AGAPE LOVE come from?


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


So we do not get to pat ourselves on the back for LOVING HIM, but it proves the Holy Spirit really is in our Hearts.

Obedience for ANY OTHER REASON, is worthless in GOD's opinion. Therefore striving to earn Salvation or Keep Salvation reflects a LACK OF TRUST IN THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS CHRIST, and is a VAIN exercise in futility, that amounts to nothing more than WOOD, HAY, & STUBBLE that will be BURNED UP.


Isaiah 64:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.