Envy

[Willie-T]

Can envy be satisfied by "creating an 'even playing field' "? (Socialism)

 

[Dino246]

Socialism is not an even playing field, but an even score at the end of the game, regardless of how each team performed.

 

[Willie-T]

Socialism is not an even playing field, but an even score at the end of the game, regardless of how each team performed.

Well then, is the envy of the poorer players satisfied because they got the same trophy as the other team?

 

[Magenta]

Well then, is the envy of the poorer players satisfied because they got the same trophy as the other team?

No, not really. The end game is to destroy the excellence of the other team entirely so they will never have to look less than in comparison to that which is inherently superior, rather than doing the work required to raise their level of competence, or accepting their inferior status.

 

[Willie-T]

No, not really. The end game is to destroy the excellence of the other team entirely so they will never have to look less than in comparison to that which is inherently superior, rather than doing the work required to raise their level of competence, or accepting their inferior status.

I agree. Envy seems to have little to do with what I have, but rather, what I can make sure you DON'T have.

 

[Prov910]

The best government might be some form of Christian socialism—like existed 2,000 years ago in the early days of Christianity. But it would never work—even in a nation of 100% Christians. People, even Christians, are just too greedy and evil to make something like that work today.

 

[Willie-T]

The best government might be some form of Christian socialism—like existed 2,000 years ago in the early days of Christianity. But it would never work—even in a nation of 100% Christians. People, even Christians, are just too greedy and evil to make something like that work today.

Interesting. I recently read a book that had a section entitled, "Christian Socialism."

 

[Prov910]

Interesting. I recently read a book that had a section entitled, "Christian Socialism."

What book? Perhaps I should read it. I just randomly put the words "Christian socialism" together in an attempt to describe the way early Christians shared and took care of each other.

 

[Laish]

Can envy be satisfied by "creating an 'even playing field' "? (Socialism)

Simple answer is no . Socialism in your example here is only a tool to satisfy a particular urge . My experience envy is more like a illness. You remove a symptom another eventually shows up . (Only a turn to Christ can cure this ) . Look at the movers and shakers in the tec industry. They all seem to be envious of the other guy’s success . As far a socialism goes , I see it promoted by several things . Those feeling guilty of of their own success, others by a true desire to help the less fortunate,and those who are envious. Thats my take .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Willie-T]

Simple answer is no . Socialism in your example here is only a tool to satisfy a particular urge . My experience envy is more like a illness. You remove a symptom another eventually shows up . (Only a turn to Christ can cure this ) . Look at the movers and shakers in the tec industry. They all seem to be envious of the other guy’s success . As far a socialism goes , I see it promoted by several things . Those feeling guilty of of their own success, others by a true desire to help the less fortunate,and those who are envious. Thats my take .
Blessings
Bill

The "guilt manipulation" put me in mind of this man's definition of Envy:

Envy is the belief that one person's wealth is the cause of the poverty of others. The envious man blames others for his own want. His primary desire is not so much to obtain their property as to see them deprived of it. This is one reason why socialists cannot be convinced of the undesirability of socialism's inefficiencies, even when they admit that their policies will not result in the benefit of themselves or the poor; for the main goal of socialism is to confiscate and destroy. Socialism is institutionalized envy. When envy dominates a culture, progress is impossible: the envious will hate those who are successful, and everyone will do his best not to appear successful, in fear of being envied. When envy is inverted and turned in upon oneself, it becomes guilt (q.v.). You can sell a lot of copies of books that encourage guilt in an envy-dominated culture. Christians who do not tithe constitute a strong potential market for such books.

 

[Corbinscam]

no... as long as people perceive themself as inadequate it'll always exist. Socialism can't teach people to be who God made them to be.

 

[Laish]

Looking a bit at the subject as you present it Willie. It got me to thinking.( can be dangerous) Do you see a difference between envy and greed ? I see a connection in some circumstances but are they two separate things in your opinion. If so could some on the receiving side of socialism only be greedy and not envious ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[maxwel]

The "guilt manipulation" put me in mind of this man's definition of Envy:

Envy is the belief that one person's wealth is the cause of the poverty of others. The envious man blames others for his own want. His primary desire is not so much to obtain their property as to see them deprived of it. This is one reason why socialists cannot be convinced of the undesirability of socialism's inefficiencies, even when they admit that their policies will not result in the benefit of themselves or the poor; for the main goal of socialism is to confiscate and destroy. Socialism is institutionalized envy. When envy dominates a culture, progress is impossible: the envious will hate those who are successful, and everyone will do his best not to appear successful, in fear of being envied. When envy is inverted and turned in upon oneself, it becomes guilt (q.v.). You can sell a lot of copies of books that encourage guilt in an envy-dominated culture. Christians who do not tithe constitute a strong potential market for such books.

Hey Willie,

Very interesting post.

: )



I would have to say "envy" and "wanting to destroy or pull down another person" are NOT the same thing.

They are related, but they are not the same.

There is a causal relationship.
One thing causes the other, like links in a chain.

Envy, left to fester, will eventually move beyond just "wanting what someone else has", and will eventually move to a place where you're quite willing and happy to HARM them.



So, regarding the above quote, I would say this man's definition of envy is just a really bad definition.
He is refusing to distinguish a CAUSAL AGENT (envy) from all the EFFECTS that can come from it (wanting to harm others).
- Envy doesn't mean you're inherently willing to harm someone.
- Envy just means you want what they have.
- Some people in this world have enormous envy, but because they are devoted to capitalism, this envy drives them to just work really hard and EARN what they want.
- So, to envy does not necessitate some willingness to harm or steal.
- But if envy is left to fester and grow, like any sin, it GETS WORSE, and it NATURALLY CAUSES OTHER PROBLEMS, like stealing and willingness to harm... perhaps even a sadistic GLEEFUL desire to harm.


* So, I think his view of socialism is reasonable, I agree it's an awful mess, and it STEMS from all kinds of wrong thinking.
* But I think when he tries to define envy, he just runs off the rails, and just arbitrarily redefines a simple word.
* I think the evils of socialism, and this guys inability to rightly define a word, are also totally unrelated... the fact he can't define a word correctly does NOT make his views of socialism wrong.


So, to reiterate and wrap up:

- Envy does not equal A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc. etc etc.
- Envy is just envy... it has a simple definition, it just means to want what someone else has.
- Envy "could" motivate a person to become a harder working capitalist... maybe an honest one, and maybe a dishonest one.
- But left to fester and grow, like any sin, envy WILL BE the starting point of a long causal chain... which will.. eventually... descend into the kinds of destructive behavior the author describes.

Anyway, I agree with all the sentiment, and the idea that socialism is bad... I totally agree... I just think this guy is so angry he can't rightly define a simple word.

: )

 

[maxwel]

And I'm just chewing on this, and picking at it, because it's a very interesting post.

Willie seems to read an awful lot.
Sometimes it's really interesting.

Maybe we should just be thankful that somebody around here reads.

 

[Willie-T]

And I'm just chewing on this, and picking at it, because it's a very interesting post.

Willie seems to read an awful lot.
Sometimes it's really interesting.

Maybe we should just be thankful that somebody around here reads.

"Sometimes??????" Hey, I gots feelin's, ya know. ☺

 

[maxwel]

"Sometimes??????" Hey, I gots feelin's, ya know. ☺

LOL.


Let me point out something else that's interesting about this.

Envy is the belief that one person's wealth is the cause of the poverty of others.

This quote is a really bad definition of envy.
But...
it's a PERFECT definition of classic Marxism.

So let's just trade the word envy for the word Marxism.
"Marxism is the belief that one person's wealth is the cause of the poverty of others."

Now, since most socialist ARE Marxists... you could probably also replace the word "envy" with the word "socialism".

"Socialism is the belief that one person's wealth is the cause of the poverty of others."
This may not be what all socialists believe, but any of them that are really hard-core socialists are going to believe this.


Yeah, I think this pretty much works.

Like I said, I don't disagree with the overall point of the author, I just think the word "envy" doesn't particularly fit.

 

[Willie-T]

Hey Willie,
Very interesting post.
: )


I would have to say "envy" and "wanting to destroy or pull down another person" are NOT the same thing.

They are related, but they are not the same.

There is a causal relationship.
One thing causes the other, like links in a chain.

Envy, left to fester, will eventually move beyond just "wanting what someone else has", and will eventually move to a place where you're quite willing and happy to HARM them.

So, regarding the above quote, I would say this man's definition of envy is just a really bad definition.
He is refusing to distinguish a CAUSAL AGENT (envy) from all the EFFECTS that can come from it (wanting to harm others).
- Envy doesn't mean you're inherently willing to harm someone.
- Envy just means you want what they have.
- Some people in this world have enormous envy, but because they are devoted to capitalism, this envy drives them to just work really hard and EARN what they want.
- So, to envy does not necessitate some willingness to harm or steal.
- But if envy is left to fester and grow, like any sin, it GETS WORSE, and it NATURALLY CAUSES OTHER PROBLEMS, like stealing and willingness to harm... perhaps even a sadistic GLEEFUL desire to harm.

* So, I think his view of socialism is reasonable, I agree it's an awful mess, and it STEMS from all kinds of wrong thinking.
* But I think when he tries to define envy, he just runs off the rails, and just arbitrarily redefines a simple word.
* I think the evils of socialism, and this guys inability to rightly define a word, are also totally unrelated... the fact he can't define a word correctly does NOT make his views of socialism wrong.

So, to reiterate and wrap up:

- Envy does not equal A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc. etc etc.
- Envy is just envy... it has a simple definition, it just means to want what someone else has.
- Envy "could" motivate a person to become a harder working capitalist... maybe an honest one, and maybe a dishonest one.
- But left to fester and grow, like any sin, envy WILL BE the starting point of a long causal chain... which will.. eventually... descend into the kinds of destructive behavior the author describes.

Anyway, I agree with all the sentiment, and the idea that socialism is bad... I totally agree... I just think this guy is so angry he can't rightly define a simple word.
: )

I think this guy is probably thinking a little more on a global, societal scale, since the book this came from is actually a critique of another man's book about the way he feels people should live.

 

[Dino246]

Well then, is the envy of the poorer players satisfied because they got the same trophy as the other team?

No, because envy is inherently destructive. It will not be satisfied until it negates the success and even the validity of the other team. Envy, at its root, doesn't merely say, "I want the same as what you have"; it says, "I want to take away what you have, so that you can't enjoy it, whether I enjoy it or not."

And... I see that this is essentially what you already wrote. I really should read all the responses before adding my own.

 

[Susanna]

Hmm...I don't envy anyone.

 

[maxwel]

I think this guy is probably thinking a little more on a global, societal scale, since the book this came from is actually a critique of another man's book about the way he feels people should live.

There could certainly be a lot of context in the book which changes the meaning of the quote.

As the quote stands, I think the definition of envy is a silly propositional statement.
But there could easily be a lot of context we're not seeing.

So yeah, this could be a place where I'm just misunderstanding him.