The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?
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No need for mouthy defensive remarks.....and I never said it is OUR generation's anything.....other than JESUS, PAUL, PETER, DANIEL etc. were clear concerning the ability to know the season......as far as the 7 churches written unto.....I do not buy the age deal.....and a honest evaluation will reveal that those 7 churches represent well the types of churches that will be on the planet at any given moment in time which allows for the universal application of Revelation to the generation alive when it does go down. And I do not buy your reasoning in the last line......every generation has suffered for the cause from Abel unto the present....and again I say there are TOO many events that have not taken place from the book of Revelation to say it has taken place in the 1st century A.D. and to be even more frank.....it is more ridiculous to think that it has taken place and the last 1930 years have been spent spinning the wheels of time with NO REAL PURPOSE to ANY of the predicted and or prophesied events that are found in the bible......such as....
a. Sun, moon and stars going dark
b. Heavens rolled up as a scroll
c. Heavens being dissolved and on fire
d. The complete war, wearing out and prevailing against the saints to the point that all of Christiandom is wiped out...the exact OPPOSITE of what took place within 1st and 2nd century Christianity
e. The events of the two witnesses and ALL that happens with them (no record of history) and surely there would be an account of MEN stopping the rain and calling down fire from heaven
f. ALL thing sin the sea dying world wide
g. ALL green grass burnt up world wide
h. A third of ALL shipping wiped out world wide
I. A third of the trees burnt up world wide
J. The opening of the PIT and the LOCUST army from hell being cut lose on humanity
k. MEN desiring DEATH and NO ONE BEING ABLE to DIE
l. ALL MEN hiding in dens and caves from the FACE of HIM that sits on the THRONE
m. THE MEN looking up and dropping dead from FEAR in LUKE
n. THE destruction of man to the extent that if JESUS did not step in NO FLESH would be left alive
p. JESUS coming in the clouds with POWER and GLORY and EVERY EYE SEEING HIM (chapter 3)
etc.
I will not even go on....there are TOO many things to choke down to believe that this book was fulfilled in the 1st century
and the funny tragic thing....I really like you and YET I watched you today rake a young kid over the coals for not being open to truth and or changing ones mind........SHOW me the historicity of the above events and ALL things in REVELATION and PROVE beyond a doubt they happened 1st CENTURY and I will be open to it...there should be plenty of historical accounts and or proof......The Romans kept records really well.....
a. Sun, moon and stars going dark
b. Heavens rolled up as a scroll
c. Heavens being dissolved and on fire
d. The complete war, wearing out and prevailing against the saints to the point that all of Christiandom is wiped out...the exact OPPOSITE of what took place within 1st and 2nd century Christianity
e. The events of the two witnesses and ALL that happens with them (no record of history) and surely there would be an account of MEN stopping the rain and calling down fire from heaven
f. ALL thing sin the sea dying world wide
g. ALL green grass burnt up world wide
h. A third of ALL shipping wiped out world wide
I. A third of the trees burnt up world wide
J. The opening of the PIT and the LOCUST army from hell being cut lose on humanity
k. MEN desiring DEATH and NO ONE BEING ABLE to DIE
l. ALL MEN hiding in dens and caves from the FACE of HIM that sits on the THRONE
m. THE MEN looking up and dropping dead from FEAR in LUKE
n. THE destruction of man to the extent that if JESUS did not step in NO FLESH would be left alive
p. JESUS coming in the clouds with POWER and GLORY and EVERY EYE SEEING HIM (chapter 3)
etc.
I will not even go on....there are TOO many things to choke down to believe that this book was fulfilled in the 1st century
and the funny tragic thing....I really like you and YET I watched you today rake a young kid over the coals for not being open to truth and or changing ones mind........SHOW me the historicity of the above events and ALL things in REVELATION and PROVE beyond a doubt they happened 1st CENTURY and I will be open to it...there should be plenty of historical accounts and or proof......The Romans kept records really well.....
Willie-T....I stated this somewhere in another post but will again here. The Bible is a JEwish BOOK through and through. Jesus is Jewish....
Revelation is not meant for Gentiles who do not believe.as..they are to die. Rather it is designed to bring back God's people (Israel) back to Him.
The Gentiles were grafted into the Vine (Israel) when the branches of the vine were cut off. Be not arrogant for one was grafted on, one can be ungrafted.....The Vine (Israel) remains and the remnant of the Jewish Population at the time of Jacob's Torubles will again be grafted Back onto the vine. He said that in their affliction they will call his NAME.
The Gentiles that were taught by Paul and the Jewish that were taught by Peter, had one thing in common. They were both part of the "body of Christ' and will be caught-up as the other six Harpazo's happened through out the Bible.
While I am somewhat younger than you, I still await death. My faith will not.falter and in my death, I will accomplish what the Harpoazo would have stopped. That is my first dead. My Soul will sit into Heaven until the fullness of the Church is complete. Either way I WIN-WIN. Being in the CoC all those years had to do something to you Willie-T, I pray you get back on track.
Everything here.........
www.beastsmark.com
www.beastsmark.com
Willie-T, You can be thankful that we are not saved by understanding mysteries, neither do you have a taste for the mystery. But as much as we are not saved by understanding mysteries neither should you be contending, If you don't know what your saying, just admitting will do. No need to make a show of it
This is just my point. What does the single word, "soon" (or any variation of it your translation might use) mean? Even in the original Greek, there is no way you can stretch it to mean, "2,000 years from now." Yet this is exactly what you guys are swallowing, then you are basing all sorts of wild speculations upon that change you have accepted. Read the word for what it is, and deal with the facts as the book states them.
To God a day is as a 1000 years, and the same, as one day, 2 days ending mathematically around2030 from the time He spoke it when He was about 30 years of age, "Today and tomorrow I heal the sick and cast out devils and the third Day I shall be perfected." He rules for a thousand years, with those who suffered with Him.
Hello Jackson123,
What Willie isn't doing is comparing and cross-referencing scripture to arrive at his conclusion. My point is that, in speaking of "the day of Lord" the OT prophets all used the words "is near, is coming, will soon take place, is close at hand" (Isa.13:6, 9, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 3:14), just to name a few.
The day of the Lord is described as a time of darkness, a cruel day of wrath and fierce anger. When we get to the NT, the apostles are speaking about that same time period of "the day of the Lord" as still being a future event. This would demonstrate that "near and close at hand" is not something that we can set a date to, as that period of wrath is still yet to take place and therefore infers imminency, looming, on the horizon, about to happen, in the workings.
The error of those who claim that this time of wrath has already taken place, is that they ignore the literal events regarding this time of wrath and they force fulfillment by historicizing or allegorizing the day of the Lord. They also claim that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD fulfilled the day of the Lord, which ridiculous when you have studied the events of wrath that are to take place during that time and what the state of the entire world will be in by the time when Christ returns to the earth.
The book of Revelation is a detailed account of "the day of the Lord" when God will pour out his wrath upon this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to Christ's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
The facts are that none of the events that identify the day of the Lord have yet taken place. Therefore, the terms "is near, is coming, will soon take place, is close at hand," means that it is always imminent until it takes place.
Also, the world itself will not come to an end until after the millennial kingdom. After that will be the great white throne judgment, followed by the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, for the first heaven and earth will have passed away.
In short, if the OT prophets were claiming that "the day of the Lord" was near 800 to a 1000 years prior to the apostles who also claimed the same thing, it demonstrates that the meaning behind "is close at hand, is near, etc.," doesn't mean what we think it means.
They claim that we are stretching it mean 2,000 years and yet they force fulfillment of the identifying events as having already taken place instead of considering the actual fulfillment of them. They have greatly deluted the results of God's coming wrath not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath that is still to come upon this earth.
It comes down to an incomplete exegesis on the part of those who are claiming that the day of the Lord has already taken place, applying it as being fulfilled in 70 AD.
What Willie isn't doing is comparing and cross-referencing scripture to arrive at his conclusion. My point is that, in speaking of "the day of Lord" the OT prophets all used the words "is near, is coming, will soon take place, is close at hand" (Isa.13:6, 9, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 3:14), just to name a few.
The day of the Lord is described as a time of darkness, a cruel day of wrath and fierce anger. When we get to the NT, the apostles are speaking about that same time period of "the day of the Lord" as still being a future event. This would demonstrate that "near and close at hand" is not something that we can set a date to, as that period of wrath is still yet to take place and therefore infers imminency, looming, on the horizon, about to happen, in the workings.
The error of those who claim that this time of wrath has already taken place, is that they ignore the literal events regarding this time of wrath and they force fulfillment by historicizing or allegorizing the day of the Lord. They also claim that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD fulfilled the day of the Lord, which ridiculous when you have studied the events of wrath that are to take place during that time and what the state of the entire world will be in by the time when Christ returns to the earth.
The book of Revelation is a detailed account of "the day of the Lord" when God will pour out his wrath upon this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to Christ's physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.
The facts are that none of the events that identify the day of the Lord have yet taken place. Therefore, the terms "is near, is coming, will soon take place, is close at hand," means that it is always imminent until it takes place.
Also, the world itself will not come to an end until after the millennial kingdom. After that will be the great white throne judgment, followed by the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, for the first heaven and earth will have passed away.
In short, if the OT prophets were claiming that "the day of the Lord" was near 800 to a 1000 years prior to the apostles who also claimed the same thing, it demonstrates that the meaning behind "is close at hand, is near, etc.," doesn't mean what we think it means.
They claim that we are stretching it mean 2,000 years and yet they force fulfillment of the identifying events as having already taken place instead of considering the actual fulfillment of them. They have greatly deluted the results of God's coming wrath not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's wrath that is still to come upon this earth.
It comes down to an incomplete exegesis on the part of those who are claiming that the day of the Lord has already taken place, applying it as being fulfilled in 70 AD.
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Revelation 4:1 [FONT="]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.[/FONT]
All the things shown John following 4:1 regard the hereafter, after the book of Revelation was written.
What would have been the purpose writing the book of Revelation on Patmos in the 60's for some events that would terminate in 70 AD?
It would take years just to take the book, make copies and transport it to some of the churches.
All the things shown John following 4:1 regard the hereafter, after the book of Revelation was written.
What would have been the purpose writing the book of Revelation on Patmos in the 60's for some events that would terminate in 70 AD?
It would take years just to take the book, make copies and transport it to some of the churches.
Besides denying all the excellent points indicating the book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD; these gainsayers respond with nothing of substance indicating it was written in the 60's AD as they claim.
That's blind faith in an unsubstantiated date, simply because they want to believe that the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem represents what is described in Revelation.
That's blind faith in an unsubstantiated date, simply because they want to believe that the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem represents what is described in Revelation.
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Agree
They were written specifically to the 7 churches. Beyond that, is speculation.
Not every thing has been fulfilled, but alot of it has been.
These are shown to be symbolic by the parallel passages in the OT. Look them up or read my previous posts on the day of the Lord. They have happened before, several times, even before 70 AD.
Really? So there were no Christians killed during that time? No persecution by Rome and the Jews? Nobody fed to the lions?
etc.?
The 2 witness are literally the Word of God Zech 1:6.
Seas of the gentile nations, The waters are people Rev 17:15.
The grass is Israel, it's not planet earth, it's the earth of Israel, the known world at that time.
Israelites traveling between settlements of Israel among the gentile nations, the waters are people.
Fig trees, Israel.
False prophets of the RCC, The image of the Roman Empire
Rev 9:10, "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: ..."
Isaiah 9:15, "The ancient and honorable, he is the head; and the prophet that teaches lies, he is the tail."
Die to the world, and live to God. They can't find the gospel salvation because of the false teachers, so many.
Again also found in the OT in reference to the day of the Lord. But it"s not the planet earth, it's the earth of Israel, It's about Israel.
Dest of Jerusalem.
No flesh of Israel, Not Planet earth.
When Jesus came to Jerusalem with clouds of Roman armies, it was clear to every ISRAELITE that Jesus was the MESSIAH, because there was no power in heaven or earth that could destroy Jerusalem against the will of God.
It doesn't matter if the Rev was written before or after 70 ad, it says the same thing either way.
Seals 1-7 show the consequences of the rejection of the kingdom by Israel, resulting in the dest of Jeru in 70 AD., the 6/7 seal
WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT IS WHAT TO FOCUS ON, THE 7 TRUMPETS.
The 7th trumpet is the rap/resur and the end of the planet.
They were written specifically to the 7 churches. Beyond that, is speculation.
Not every thing has been fulfilled, but alot of it has been.
These are shown to be symbolic by the parallel passages in the OT. Look them up or read my previous posts on the day of the Lord. They have happened before, several times, even before 70 AD.
Really? So there were no Christians killed during that time? No persecution by Rome and the Jews? Nobody fed to the lions?
etc.?
The 2 witness are literally the Word of God Zech 1:6.
Seas of the gentile nations, The waters are people Rev 17:15.
The grass is Israel, it's not planet earth, it's the earth of Israel, the known world at that time.
Israelites traveling between settlements of Israel among the gentile nations, the waters are people.
Fig trees, Israel.
False prophets of the RCC, The image of the Roman Empire
Rev 9:10, "And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: ..."
Isaiah 9:15, "The ancient and honorable, he is the head; and the prophet that teaches lies, he is the tail."
Die to the world, and live to God. They can't find the gospel salvation because of the false teachers, so many.
Again also found in the OT in reference to the day of the Lord. But it"s not the planet earth, it's the earth of Israel, It's about Israel.
Dest of Jerusalem.
No flesh of Israel, Not Planet earth.
When Jesus came to Jerusalem with clouds of Roman armies, it was clear to every ISRAELITE that Jesus was the MESSIAH, because there was no power in heaven or earth that could destroy Jerusalem against the will of God.
It doesn't matter if the Rev was written before or after 70 ad, it says the same thing either way.
Seals 1-7 show the consequences of the rejection of the kingdom by Israel, resulting in the dest of Jeru in 70 AD., the 6/7 seal
WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT IS WHAT TO FOCUS ON, THE 7 TRUMPETS.
The 7th trumpet is the rap/resur and the end of the planet.
Willie-T: I think you will agree that we are BORN to DIE! or at least I hope you do?
Like Jesus' Imminent return has lasted 2000 years, YOUR IMMINENT DEATH has lasted 71 years. Your death was to be 'SOON" or 'Imminent' from the day you were born yet it is not here yet. I submit you have about as much CONTROL of staying alive as you do determining the Day that Jesus will return for His Bride. Yet both are told to us by Jesus in the Bible (HIS WORD).
The Definition for 'Imminent' is as follows: "about to happen."
The Definition of 'Soon' is a s follows: in or after a short time.
Both convey that something is to happen in the future without any time constrains. Both convey a Short time or an extended time period.
There is a Children's Prayer although I do not know why it is man's eyes only subject to Children. DO you say this every night? I try to or at least a variation of it?
"Now I lay me down to sleep.
I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray to God my soul to take.
If I should live for other days,
I pray the Lord to guide my ways."
There is more but you probably already know that?????
Preterist tell us that Revelation is irrelevant because it has to be to fit their Eschatology. Throw out one BOOK of GOD and compromise others. Why? a different Lifestyle, A different World View, A different Religion or just a general hatred for GOD????
So SAD!
*************
synonyms for Soon: shortly, presently, in the near future, before long, in a little while, in a minute, in a moment, in an instant, in a bit, in the twinkling of an eye, in no time, before you know it, any minute (now), any day (now), by and by;
synonyms for Imminence: impending, close (at hand), near, (fast) approaching, coming, forthcoming, on the way, in the offing, in the pipeline, on the horizon, in the air, just around the corner, coming down the pike, expected, anticipated, brewing, looming, threatening, menacing; informalin the cards
As I have said numerous times, no "proof" comes from squirting out a verse here and there on a forum page that each of us interprets in our own ways.
I have "proof in the forms of more text than this place permits posting, and could provide it to any of you to research on your own. But, there is no point, since it's a sure bet none of you will spend the time necessary to "truly" read any of it. (One of them, BTW, is the best and most comprehensive commentary on The apocalypse that I believe has ever been written...... even though I largely disagree with the author's theology.)
Do you guys actually think that a 72 year-old man who has more time in some of the most serious Bible College study than most people have sitting on the toilet would actually just invent this stuff? I was inculcated with all the same things most of you absorbed. I was convinced there is going to be a surprise secret Rapture. I was also taught, for decades, that Revelation was written between 94-96AD..... and that the book was solidly about The End of The Physical World. I had not one doubt about it. Like you, I KNEW. I believed it all just as you do.... maybe more. And I argued with people about it for years.
Then God opened my eyes. I think He presented me with the question as to whether or not I had the guts to walk relatively in charted wastelands and look at the things others saw. Frankly, for a few years, I did not have the nerve. I WOULD NOT dare to look for anything other than what I had been so diligently taught. Then one day, I risked a step or two out of the "safety of the boat of the majority" because Jesus called me to walk the waves of disruption disturbance that were Jesus' whole life on earth.
I have "proof in the forms of more text than this place permits posting, and could provide it to any of you to research on your own. But, there is no point, since it's a sure bet none of you will spend the time necessary to "truly" read any of it. (One of them, BTW, is the best and most comprehensive commentary on The apocalypse that I believe has ever been written...... even though I largely disagree with the author's theology.)
Do you guys actually think that a 72 year-old man who has more time in some of the most serious Bible College study than most people have sitting on the toilet would actually just invent this stuff? I was inculcated with all the same things most of you absorbed. I was convinced there is going to be a surprise secret Rapture. I was also taught, for decades, that Revelation was written between 94-96AD..... and that the book was solidly about The End of The Physical World. I had not one doubt about it. Like you, I KNEW. I believed it all just as you do.... maybe more. And I argued with people about it for years.
Then God opened my eyes. I think He presented me with the question as to whether or not I had the guts to walk relatively in charted wastelands and look at the things others saw. Frankly, for a few years, I did not have the nerve. I WOULD NOT dare to look for anything other than what I had been so diligently taught. Then one day, I risked a step or two out of the "safety of the boat of the majority" because Jesus called me to walk the waves of disruption disturbance that were Jesus' whole life on earth.