The 67-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem

[Willie-T]

So then what is this uttermost wrath that has fallen upon those who killed Jesus and the prophets in 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16, if not their destruction in 67-70 AD?

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Yes, they brought the wrath of God to themselves, and thus the destruction of their Temple and system of worship was doomed.

But just like all the times that Jesus said "The kingdom of God has come upon you", the full realization of it has not even come upon us completely, even to this day. As a boy, I am sure you can remember that you screwed up and brought punishment upon yourself.... but, if like in most households, the actual administering of that punishment did not fully land on you until your dad got home and took you to the woodshed.

God laid "wrath" on both the Jews and the Gentiles all through the Bible..... and often it took decades (sometimes even hundreds of years) to have its full impact.

I think we often make some big mistakes in thinking God is limited in doing things ONLY in the manner and timing that we have stuck in our heads that He has to deliver it.

 

[louis]

Yes, they brought the wrath of God to themselves, and thus the destruction of their Temple and system of worship was doomed.

But just like all the times that Jesus said "The kingdom of God has come upon you", the full realization of it has not even come upon us completely, even to this day. As a boy, I am sure you can remember that you screwed up and brought punishment upon yourself.... but, if like in most households, the actual administering of that punishment did not fully land on you until your dad got home and took you to the woodshed.

God laid "wrath" on both the Jews and the Gentiles all through the Bible..... and often it took decades (sometimes even hundreds of years) to have its full impact.

I think we often make some big mistakes in thinking God is limited in doing things ONLY in the manner and timing that we have stuck in our heads that He has to deliver it.

Your response does not explain God's uttermost wrath being something other than the 67-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. Basically, you are saying that Paul was informing the Thessalonians of what was about to befall the unbelievers in Judea, which had yet to occur.

 

[abcdef]

Everyone prior to Christ's physical appearance on earth who believed in love and mercy, believed in Christs Way and were and are part of the kingdom. Look at the Samaritan in Luke 10 who never heard of Christ.

You are right about faith before Jesus came.

But the kingdom has different phases, parts.

Jesus said of John the Baptist, Mt 11:11,"he that is the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

And, Lk 17:20, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:", so the kingdom didn't arrive until Pentecost.

John the Baptist was not part of the Pentecost kingdom.

The kingdom of Christ brought the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38, John was not able to be in the part of the kingdom that did receive it.

 

[Jackson123]

1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 describes a scene where Gods wrath has fallen upon to the uttermost those who killed the Lord and the prophets. In my opinion this uttermost wrath would be the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century.
The faithless in Jerusalem had also just a few years earlier exiled all believing in Christ Jews--with the exception of the apostles (Acts 8:1), and so may also be part of the reason why the Lord removed Himself from the hearts of the faithless in Jerusalem causing them to revolt against Roman rule that brought about their destruction.


1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

I am not good in grammar, correct me if I am wrong

seem to me : "for the wrath is come upon them". mean the wrath is happen when Paul wrote this letter.

and I believe the wrath will continue till Jews stop persecute Christian and inhibit evangelism.

I am not sure whether AD 67 to AD 70 is a wrath of God or a wrath of Rome. Because, Rome persecute Christian as well. Wrath of God not persecute Christian.

 

[louis]

You are right about faith before Jesus came.

But the kingdom has different phases, parts.

Jesus said of John the Baptist, Mt 11:11,"he that is the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

And, Lk 17:20, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:", so the kingdom didn't arrive until Pentecost.

John the Baptist was not part of the Pentecost kingdom.

The kingdom of Christ brought the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38, John was not able to be in the part of the kingdom that did receive it.

So according to your claim, we believers are now in one part of the kingdom of God?
I on the other hand believe that we believers in Christs Way, along with all other believers in Christ's Way who preceded Christ's appearance, are part of His kingdom to come (Matthew 25:34).

Matthew 25:34 [FONT=&quot]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:[/FONT]

 

[Willie-T]

Your response does not explain God's uttermost wrath being something other than the 67-70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. Basically, you are saying that Paul was informing the Thessalonians of what was about to befall the unbelievers in Judea, which had yet to occur.

That's because I DON'T think that "God's Wrath", in this incident is anything other than the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. How in the world did you ever get the idea I think it meant something else?

Yes, I am saying Paul was warning of the consequences of the Jewish Apostasy. Just as I believe John spoke mainly of 70 AD in Revelation.... while finishing up by warning that continued apostasy in any time period will end up in disaster.

 

[louis]

I am not good in grammar, correct me if I am wrong

seem to me : "for the wrath is come upon them". mean the wrath is happen when Paul wrote this letter.

and I believe the wrath will continue till Jews stop persecute Christian and inhibit evangelism.

I am not sure whether AD 67 to AD 70 is a wrath of God or a wrath of Rome. Because, Rome persecute Christian as well. Wrath of God not persecute Christian.

The Lord uses his instruments which are people.
Have you not read about the potter and the clay, how the Lord is the potter and we are the clay which He forms?

Rome was the Lords instrument in undertaking His uttermost wrath.

 

[louis]

That's because I DON'T think that "God's Wrath", in this incident is anything other than the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. How in the world did you ever get the idea I think it meant something else?

Yes, I am saying Paul was warning of the consequences of the Jewish Apostasy. Just as I believe John spoke mainly of 70 AD in Revelation.... while finishing up by warning that continued apostasy in any time period will end up in disaster.

I on the other hand see Paul who declares God's uttermost wrath having befallen on the murders in Judea, being in his present tense and not a future tense.

 

[Jackson123]

That's because I DON'T think that "God's Wrath", in this incident is anything other than the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. How in the world did you ever get the idea I think it meant something else?

Yes, I am saying Paul was warning of the consequences of the Jewish Apostasy. Just as I believe John spoke mainly of 70 AD in Revelation.... while finishing up by warning that continued apostasy in any time period will end up in disaster.

so you believe after AD 70 God do not angry to Jews anymore?

 

[Willie-T]

so you believe after AD 70 God do not angry to Jews anymore?

Disappointed, Yes. But, angry? No. He did what He decided to do in 70 AD by destroying the apostate religion they turned worship of Him into. And just as with each of us, He will welcome any and all Jews who accept His son as the Messiah.

 

[louis]

so you believe after AD 70 God do not angry to Jews anymore?

The Lord is patient, and waits for everyone to repent and believe in His Way.
His patience will, however, come to a close for Jews and all unbelievers in His Way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's put this into perspective. Someone goes and tells a certain group of people that Gods uttermost wrath has come upon another group of people because God is rejecting them, would not convince many people with that statement.

Lol.. Well maybe to the group that thinks they are Gods chosen would.

You can take my land and do whatever you want. But take my eternity with God away. Now you have my attention.

There are much better ways to prove your point that this my friend. This does not help at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Everyone prior to Christ's physical appearance on earth who believed in love and mercy, believed in Christs Way and were and are part of the kingdom. Look at the Samaritan in Luke 10 who never heard of Christ.

I am not disagreeing here

 

[Jackson123]

The Lord uses his instruments which are people.
Have you not read about the potter and the clay, how the Lord is the potter and we are the clay which He forms?

Rome was the Lords instrument in undertaking His uttermost wrath.

when Jews persecute Christian, do you believe Jews was the Lord instrument in undertaking His wrath?

 

[Willie-T]

I on the other hand see Paul who declares God's uttermost wrath having befallen on the murders in Judea, being in his present tense and not a future tense.

Yes, but even your "present tense" has a time factor associated with it. Not every one of the murderers fell dead, on the spot, in the very same instant God declared He was angry with them. Often God took months, and even years, to raise armies, have them march hundreds of miles, set up camp, and engage in sieges of many months endurance to enact His wrathful vengeance upon certain people groups.

 

[Willie-T]

when Jews persecute Christian, do you believe Jews was the Lord instrument in undertaking His wrath?

I do...........................

 

[louis]

Lol.. Well maybe to the group that thinks they are Gods chosen would.

You can take my land and do whatever you want. But take my eternity with God away. Now you have my attention.

There are much better ways to prove your point that this my friend. This does not help at all.

How would that have convinced some of the Judeans whom Paul had just described as murderers? Stick to the script.

 

[Jackson123]

Disappointed, Yes. But, angry? No. He did what He decided to do in 70 AD by destroying the apostate religion they turned worship of Him into. And just as with each of us, He will welcome any and all Jews who accept His son as the Messiah.

so do you believe God never angry anymore after AD 70?

How about holocaust that kill 6 million Jews, is that not God wrath?

 

[Willie-T]

so do you believe God never angry anymore after AD 70?

How about holocaust that kill 6 million Jews, is that not God wrath?

Perhaps you would benefit from a bit of study on just what "the wrath of God" is in the Bible. It was often NOT a violent outburst of Holy Anger. Many times it was a resolute decision of God's to let certain situations work out, over decades, to their eventual and predictable results. When you read, "the wrath of God", do not automatically assume fire and brimstone. The words of the Bible show us that was not always the case.

Truthfully, TOO OFTEN A LOT OF US SEARCH FOR VIOLENCE AND ANGER when we read of almost any action, of any kind, at any time, on God's part.

 

[louis]

when Jews persecute Christian, do you believe Jews was the Lord instrument in undertaking His wrath?

The vast majority of reasons why people persecute other people is for gain, and to have an advantage.
This type of persecution is from the devil. The Lord is there trying to convince the unbeliever who is persecuting others unjustly, to repent and believe in His Way. Unbelievers, however, will not listen, and therefore choose not to believe in love, mercy, and justice.
The Lord does not abandon people after one or two iniquities; He is patient and gives them time.
After some time (often decades) in attempting to convince unbelievers that their way is wrong, the Lord then sees there is nothing more that can be done, and He then utilizes others to rid Himself of His enemies.