Paul exposes false application of the law

BillG · Nov 12, 2017

Your quotes above and below.

I may be mistaken here, so please correct me if I am wrong.

Your first quote says you are one of them who wants to name even though this not our authority and show me one example, you have none.

Then it seems to me that you are saying EG is saying using the fact the fact that we can’t cannot obey the commadments (whic you agree with) then EG is using this as an excuse to not be obedient.

Then you say “You have such in this thread and this is HG”

So it seems to me that you have taken authority and by inference you are naming EG as a Hyper-Gracer.

That EG is saying “We can’t obey the commandments, therefore let’s use it as license to sin.

I cant say I have ever seen him say that. Have you?

I have to say given my looking into HG, I can’t see that they say that grace is an excuse to sin, be disobedient.
In fact one of the major opponents doesn’t have a problem with message of grace at all, his issue is forgiveness of present sins
but not for salvation.

Simply stated, there is not a single verse anywhere in the Bible that pronounces us already forgiven for our future sins (meaning, sins we have not yet committed). Not one verse. Nowhere. Not even a hint of such a concept.”
― Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message

It’s clear that our present sins need present forgiveness, not for the purpose of salvation but as part of our relationship with the Father.”
― Michael L. Brown, Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message

In your post 149 you say “Everyone who wants to prove that Jesus is the sabbath and throws out one of the 10 commandments.

What commandment is being thrown out?

What obedience and to what are we being called to obedient to?

Hizikyah · Nov 12, 2017

Psalm 19:7-11, “The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple; The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes; The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether, More desirable than gold, Than much fine gold; And sweeter than honey and the honeycomb. Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there is great reward.”

joaniemarie · Nov 12, 2017

joaniemarie said:

The older I get in the Lord the more I notice when people are focusing on Jesus and the grace of God in Him and when people are talking about and focusing on the works done by "us" to and for God. I'm drawn to those who talk about Jesus and His grace and truth., who preach and teach about Jesus and His grace and truth.

I love to read Romans and how Paul explains the grace given in Christ for us. How we are saved by grace through faith and then how we walk after coming to Christ in the same way... by grace through faith.

It's frustrating to come to a thread like this one started by EG and be side tracked over and over by those who can only see the law and don't read the OPs 1st post or those afterward. It's as if there are blinders on for anything said or written that doesn't glorify the works of people instead of the finished work of Christ.

I so miss Bruce (Grace777) and people like him. He was one who daily encouraged Christians here to focus on Jesus and His finished work. Bruce was able and willing to contend with those who oppose the truth of the new covenant brought in after Jesus died on the cross. The veil was rent in two no longer separating man from God. Jesus became the Mediator between God and man. The offer of salvation by grace through faith entered and the old covenant with the schoolmaster teaching the law became obsolete and was PHASED OUT.

Yet many many Christians are still walking to the tune of the old schoolmaster and not according to the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. There are blinders on people who uphold works of the law. There is a way that seems right to a man.... but the ways thereof are the ways of death. The law ministers death. The teaching of works for righteousness ministers death.

Churches all over the world are still ministering the 10 commandments as a way to God and causing their congregations to die prematurely as they minister death. Why do Christians keep looking at the shadow that was to come when they can have the real ONE that came and is here??? Jesus is the substance and the Holy Spirit is the minister to teach us about Him and to lead us into all truth. Many are still depending on the law to lead them and they are going down into defeat and some to destruction.

This shows me that the reason the church has been weak in it's witness to the world., it's power in the truth of love and grace in Christ is because the law has been taught and that "Jesus Christ" (who finished the work) is a only a good side note to opening the door to working even more. They treat the law as like having a meal of part Jesus. He is the main dish but we must have mashed potatoes and vegetables of works to make the meal of Jesus complete.

Jesus completely took over the law and 100% fulfilled it for us. Now we walk by the Spirit who points us always to Jesus (not to ourselves) We don't need the added starches and veggies anymore to complete Jesus. Our complete trust is in Jesus at all times. Our old traditions would not even THINK of having no potatoes and veggies on the side and some would not even think of not having dessert for a fully completed meal. Grandma would turn over in her grave!!! Traditions are like that. We can't even go there to something totally different because our traditions won't have it. There are blinders on.

The Holy Spirit's main ministry is to point us to Jesus who is our righteousness. He never points us to our works or our failures to do the works of the law. He points us to Jesus and His power to save and transform.

Studyman · Nov 12, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

You don’t understand my post. I quoted PAUL and Jesus in direct contradiction to his words you use to further Mainstream Christian doctrine. I mentioned specific traditions which are in direct rebellion to God’s Commandments, not all of them, just a couple of the most blatant sins. I never said you SAY be disobedient. There isn’t a preacher on the planet who SAYS be disobedient. The Mainstream preachers of Christ’s time SAID to obey God. It’s just that they SAID, but did not do. I asked for an honest conversation about Paul’s seemingly contradictory writings and asked how just ignoring these scriptures because they go against your preaching, is wise as opposed to openly discussing ALL scripture regardless whether they support Mainstream Traditions or not.

I am still waiting for an honest answer. Maybe you should actually read my post.

Studyman · Nov 12, 2017

joaniemarie said:

[FONT=&quot]The scriptures declare again and again that faith has nothing in common with law, and living under one nullifies the other. So what is Paul saying here? Is he contradicting himself when he says faith establishes the law? Here’s the same verse in another translation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Rom 3:31 , NASB)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul was slandered as someone who spoke against the law. He was labeled with the dreaded A-word: antinomian, meaning anti- or against the law. This is his response to that baseless accusation.

We agree with Paul who said the law is holy, righteous and good (Rom 7:12). And we also agree with him when he says the law is not for the righteous but the sinner and ungodly (1 Tim 1:9). The law is a signpost to Jesus (Gal 3:24).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Paul says again and again that we are to live by faith, not law, but living by faith does not make one anti-law. On the contrary, it is by faith that we establish or support the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
How do we establish or uphold the law? By trusting in Jesus who kept the law perfectly and by whose perfect sacrifice we are made righteous:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
So the law was put in charge of us until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. (Gal 3:24-25, TNIV)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Those who trust in their law-keeping performance may scorn those of us who are walking by grace, but the fact is we are 100% lawful while they are the lawbreakers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
You do NOT establish the law by:[/FONT]

trying to keep it (you can’t)
adopting it as a standard for holy living (it’s a recipe for inferior living, see Heb 10:1)
mixing it with grace (you’ll end up lukewarm and alienated from Christ)
thinking your rule-keeping pleases the Lord (trusting in your flesh never pleases him)
posting it on your Sunday School wall (it’s a ministry that condemns!)
telling yourself “it’s part of our Christian heritage” (it never was!)

[FONT=&quot]
You DO uphold the law by putting your faith in the One who fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law on your behalf and who offers you his perfect righteousness as a gift.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Rom 10:4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Romans 3:31 says we uphold the law by faith. Period. If you’re not convinced, it may help to look at the verse in context:[/FONT]

verse 28: You are justified by faith, not by law
verse 29: In any case only one nation received the law, yet God is God of all
verse 30: God will justify both the Jew and non-Jew by faith
verse 31: Does that mean God’s gift to the Jews was wasted? Not at all! As long as you end up with Jesus, then you uphold the law

[FONT=&quot]
The Jews were misusing the law. They thought it made them righteous and pleasing to God. Paul wrote to correct this:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
No one is righteous. All have sinned and fall short – even the law-loving Jews. The law doesn’t make you righteous; it makes you conscious of sin so that you may be justified freely by grace. (my paraphrase of Romans 3)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Live by the law and you dishonor both it and Jesus. According to Romans 7, living by the law is spiritual adultery. It’s cheating on the One who died to set you free from the law’s heavy demands .[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The law points to Jesus. If you are relying on Christ and his perfect work, then you uphold the law and honor the reason for which it was given.

(Taken from Bible commentary posts)[/FONT]

The Pharisees were not trying to be righteous by following Gos Laws. This is a horrible lie that has been taught for years my Mainstream preachers. The Pharisees were trying to be righteous by their own doctrines and traditions of men. They rejected God’s Commandments and created their own law and their own righteousness. I wish people would stop furthering the deception that the Mainstream preachers of Christ’s time were trying to please God by obeying Him. Jesus was clear this was not the case.

Hizikyah · Nov 12, 2017

Studyman said:

2 Kings 17:19, “Yehuḏah, also, did not guard the commands of יהוה their Strength, but walked in the laws of Yisra’yl which they made.”

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

Mat 23:23, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah: the right-ruling and the compassion and the belief. These need to have been done, without neglecting the others.”

1 Timothy 1:5-7, “Now the goal of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief, which some, having missed the goal, turned aside to senseless talk, wishing to be teachers of Torah, understanding neither what they say nor concerning what they strongly affirm.”

New International Version - Mat 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible - Mat 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."

Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.

Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.

Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. The Savior said this to the Pharisees;

Mat 23:8, “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi, (master)’ for One is your Master, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.”

Matt 23:33, "Serpents! Brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?"

Yahshua EXPOSED the Pharisees and their false religious system EVERY CHANCE HE GOT. He did not sit by and let people lies many need to re-read the words of the Messiah, and see how He tore apart the lies of the accepted religious system of that day every chance He had, Is it possible we today have the same issue, where main stream religions are teaching tradition rather than truth?

Mat 15:4-9, “For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14)* prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”

1 Timothy 1:5-7, " But the goal* of the commandment is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."

(goal)is word #G5056 –télos; Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies – 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

1 John 4:20, “"If someone says, "I love Yah," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love Yah whom he has not seen."

1 John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

eternally-gratefull · Nov 12, 2017

Studyman said:

or maybe you should read the op again, and explain where I was wrong?

all you and 2 other people have done is come in and attack what I said, and from what you say, i do not see how you could have read my words and say this?

Am I wrong by saying grace empowers us?

Am I wrong by saying faith and love fulfills the law?

Paul did not contradict jesus, it seems as if your saying this, I hope you are not.

But I would still like one of you, to quote a specific part of my op. And tell me how I got it wrong. Non of you have done that yet. Hizekia posts a lot of verses, claims he has not read my op. And thinks he is refuting me. JJ just outright slanders me by saying I said things I did not says in my op (I am still waiting for him to respond, if he does not, I will still report him)

so can one of you please do that?

Hizikyah · Nov 12, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

I wasnt refuting you, I honestly did not read the OP, which was wrong of me I should have before posting my initial response. I was on my way out the door and was already late. I should have waited. While my post was strong, if one is not guilty of those things they should not havce issue with it but IMO agree, some of those verses were about people who refuse His ways with a stubborn heart. If thats not you then you should not nbe offended, and I did not say anyones name and I was not pointing fingers, simply showing rejection of His ways is wring to everyone who would read.

We love Him becasue He loved us, when He gives us unmerited mercy it should (and does ) make us want to follow Him gives us motivation to follow Him and joy to follow Him.

and yes true love certianly does fulfill the Law. but like anything this can be twisted. There is not a single Law that can be broken and one still be loving Yah and lving their neighbor.

My apologies for any offence I have caused to any who are not in oppisition of Yah's commands, I am very very used to people quoting any verse about mercy or love and using it to ignore the Commands of Yah.

For it is clear;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]His Law is love, no Law no love.
[/FONT]
and I sincerly apologize for any misunderstanding as it was not my intent and I did not accuse anyone, but showed in Scripture some rebel against His ways.

gb9 · Nov 12, 2017

Hizikyah said:

I wasnt refuting you, I honestly did not read the OP, which was wrong of me I should have before posting my initial response. I was on my way out the door and was already late. I should have waited. While my post was strong, if one is not guilty of those things they should not havce issue with it but IMO agree, some of those verses were about people who refuse His ways with a stubborn heart. If thats not you then you should not nbe offended, and I did not say anyones name and I was not pointing fingers, simply showing rejection of His ways is wring to everyone who would read.

We love Him becasue He loved us, when He gives us unmerited mercy it should (and does ) make us want to follow Him gives us motivation to follow Him and joy to follow Him.

and yes true love certianly does fulfill the Law. but like anything this can be twisted. There is not a single Law that can be broken and one still be loving Yah and lving their neighbor.

My apologies for any offence I have caused to any who are not in oppisition of Yah's commands, I am very very used to people quoting any verse about mercy or love and using it to ignore the Commands of Yah.

For it is clear;

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

His Law is love, no Law no love.

and I sincerly apologize for any misunderstanding as it was not my intent and I did not accuse anyone, but showed in Scripture some rebel against His ways.

you mean some like you, who refuse to read the N.T. letters as letters. 1st John chapter 3- the commands of God to Christians - believe in the Son, love another. no dietary laws, no Sabbath, no festivals.

one of us is in rebellion against Biblical truth- the Hebrew roots guy. you.

Hizikyah · Nov 12, 2017

gb9 said:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]

What about Acts 15? and everything Yahshua/Jesus said?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

dcontroversal · Nov 12, 2017

Grandpa said:

The problem that exists between us and the Judaizers and Legalists is that we think that our faith in Christ and His Righteousness is the pinnacle of Christianity.

The Judaizers and legalists think that following the law in their own strength and understanding is the pinnacle of Christianity. Anyone who does not walk the way they do in the blindness of their own will apparently hates the Law and wants to do anything but obey.

They are missing some pretty important biblical concepts.

Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul speaks directly against the views of the judaizers and legalists. That's why they don't like him. They try to twist Pauls words to mean the opposite of what he says but the discerning can always tell when they do it.

The Lord tried to tell them the same thing that Paul explains over and over but they don't understand that either.

We either trust in Christ or we work at the law. One or the other. Not both.

Galatians 3:10-11

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 8:1-2

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There is curse and condemnation if you do what judaizers and legalists say to do, or imply.

There is Justification and Life and Righteousness in Christ Alone.

AMEN.......I feel like I am in 1st Century Jerusalem with all of the Pharisees, lawyers and those who push the commandments of men over the word of GOD...incessant push of the law while disregarding the righteousness of Christ WITHOUT the LAW being imputed by faith.........LAWS on top of LAWS, coated with LAWS, painted with laws, dunked in laws, smothered, covered nd chunked with laws.......LAWS, LAWS, LAWS nothing but LAWS that cannot be kept without guilt........

gb9 · Nov 12, 2017

Hizikyah said:

why do you continue to ask me about why John the beloved wrote the words in his letter. I did not say that those are God's commands to N.T. Christians. I'll go with what he said.

oh, and John 12 v.46, Jesus said .....so that all who put their trust in me no longer remain in the dark..

nothing about the Law of Moses ,but belief in Jesus. which John echoes in his first letter.

another fail.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 12, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

That is really not what Paul was teaching in 1 Timothy. Please note carefully what he says in verse 5.

King James Bible
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

In plain modern English, what Paul is saying is that the end-result or goal of the commandment is agape love (called charity) out of a pure heart (one which has been born again), and of a good conscience (having repented of one s sins) and of genuine faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

So lets look at *the end of the commandment* and whether it means who you have mistakenly suggested, or whether it means something else altogether.

Strong's Concordance

telos: an end, a toll

Original Word: τέλος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: telos
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-os)
Short Definition: an end, purpose, tax
Definition: (a) an end, (b) event or issue, (c) the principal end, aim, purpose, (d) a tax.HELPS Word-studies
5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5056: τέλος

τέλος, τέλους, τό (cf. Curtius, § 238), from Homerdown, the Sept. mostly for קֵץ;

d. the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose: 1 Timothy 1:5 (often so in philos. from Plato, de rep. 6, p. 494 a. down; cf. Fritzsche on Romans, ii., p. 378).

So in other words, the purpose of the Law (the Ten Commandments) is to display the agape love of God to God and to others. So the Law is indeed for true Christians, worked out by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith and love.

Hizikyah · Nov 12, 2017

gb9 said:

where in that post did I mention the Law of Moses?

I did not.

You are making false claims and smacking them down in one fell swoop.

I say we follow the Law of YHWH.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]

Hizikyah · Nov 12, 2017

John 6:28-29, “So they said to Him, “What should we do to work the works of YHWH? יהושע answered and said to them, “This is the work of YHWH, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

1 John 3:22-24, “And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we guard His commands and do what is pleasing in His sight. And this is His command, that we should believe in the Name of His Son יהושע Messiah and love one another, as He gave us command. And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

So where was this Commands given?

“This is the work of YHWH, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
“his is His command, that we should believe in the Name of His Son יהושע Messiah and love one another”

here;

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Isaiah 45:22-25, “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and glory.”

Luke 6:46-9, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say? "“Everyone who is coming to Me, and is hearing My words and is doing them, I shall show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock. And when a flood came, the stream burst against that house, but was unable to shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But the one hearing and not doing, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream burst, and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"

joaniemarie · Nov 12, 2017

Studyman said:

You are missing something here. It is not a deception to shine a light on the truth of man trying to do and be good in order to be righteous. No one... not the Jews who followed the 10 commandments with some of their own added laws., not me following the 10 commandments., not you following the 10 commandments not anyone following the commandments can be righteous. Even the high priests who went into the Tabernacle on behalf of the people needed a blood sacrifice before Jesus came.

The law was given to show prideful humanity they cannot keep the laws of being good people. It was given to show us we cannot do or be righteous on our own. Our hearts are not able to transform themselves and then our hearts are not able to be instructed by the law... we need the Holy Spirit.

We need a new born again spirit and the leading of the Holy Spirit and that is what we get at the time of our salvation. We accept Jesus and He gifts us with forgiveness and no condemnation., and the free gift of righteousness. We become born again and are now a new spirit man., we get the Holy Spirit to live in us to lead and guide and direct and teach us. (not the letter of the law but the Spirit who is in us)

Once we get those wonderful things., what is wrong with us if we go back and try to gain our standing by our own works??!!! Once we start on the path Jesus put us on of our right standing in Him as sons., of His righteousness and His Holy Spirit.., why in the world would anyone try and go back to the law and the 10 commandments to gain righteousness and favor with God?? They must rest in the truth that Jesus ALONE makes them righteous and in right standing before God.

But that is what people do. They don't continue by grace through faith in Christ. They go back to their own human reasoning and try to add something to the free gift Jesus gave. They are prideful as they truly believe "we did this part of the law and we keep working and trying to uphold the law by our obedience" When they should be saying "We uphold the truth by following Jesus and He gives us the ability to walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of our flesh.

This is done by all people who don't actively and daily participate in developing the truth that Christ alone is and always will be their righteousness before God. The pharisees., the moral person who wants to live a good life., the Catholic family., the Baptist family....The Methodist family., the Dugger family.... all of them can try to uphold the moral law but fail because they are not upholding Jesus to do it in and through them by the Holy Spirit so to give Jesus all the glory and honor and praise.

Martin Luther said he had to keep reminding himself of the truth that it is not him but Jesus on his behalf that keeps him and causes him to be able to do anything for God as a believer. And Luther said he had to go find people to preach it to because in the preaching it helped him stay in the truth because human reason fights against grace.

Studyman · Nov 12, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

You are still ignoring my post and my points. You want me to answer about something I never did. I wanted to discuss the scripture you seem to ignore. If you are uncomfortable having the discussion, I understand.

Studyman · Nov 12, 2017

joaniemarie said:

You are missing something here. It is not a deception to shine a light on the truth of man trying to do and be good in order to be righteous. No one... not the Jews who followed the 10 commandments with some of their own added laws., not me following the 10 commandments., not you following the 10 commandments not anyone following the commandments can be righteous. Even the high priests who went into the Tabernacle on behalf of the people needed a blood sacrifice before Jesus came.

The law was given to show prideful humanity they cannot keep the laws of being good people. It was given to show us we cannot do or be righteous on our own. Our hearts are not able to transform themselves and then our hearts are not able to be instructed by the law... we need the Holy Spirit.

We need a new born again spirit and the leading of the Holy Spirit and that is what we get at the time of our salvation. We accept Jesus and He gifts us with forgiveness and no condemnation., and the free gift of righteousness. We become born again and are now a new spirit man., we get the Holy Spirit to live in us to lead and guide and direct and teach us. (not the letter of the law but the Spirit who is in us)

Once we get those wonderful things., what is wrong with us if we go back and try to gain our standing by our own works??!!! Once we start on the path Jesus put us on of our right standing in Him as sons., of His righteousness and His Holy Spirit.., why in the world would anyone try and go back to the law and the 10 commandments to gain righteousness and favor with God?? They must rest in the truth that Jesus ALONE makes them righteous and in right standing before God.

But that is what people do. They don't continue by grace through faith in Christ. They go back to their own human reasoning and try to add something to the free gift Jesus gave. They are prideful as they truly believe "we did this part of the law and we keep working and trying to uphold the law by our obedience" When they should be saying "We uphold the truth by following Jesus and He gives us the ability to walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lusts of our flesh.

This is done by all people who don't actively and daily participate in developing the truth that Christ alone is and always will be their righteousness before God. The pharisees., the moral person who wants to live a good life., the Catholic family., the Baptist family....The Methodist family., the Dugger family.... all of them can try to uphold the moral law but fail because they are not upholding Jesus to do it in and through them by the Holy Spirit so to give Jesus all the glory and honor and praise.

Martin Luther said he had to keep reminding himself of the truth that it is not him but Jesus on his behalf that keeps him and causes him to be able to do anything for God as a believer. And Luther said he had to go find people to preach it to because in the preaching it helped him stay in the truth because human reason fights against grace.

[/I

The Pharisees transgressed the commandments of God by their own traditions. You said they were trying to be righteous by keeping God’s laws. That is not true. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. You stories sound nice but they have nothing to do with what the Bible teaches regarding why the Pharisees were rejected.

joaniemarie · Nov 12, 2017

It's human nature I'm talking about and all human nature tries to transgress the commandments of God by their own traditions and or human reasoning about what makes us good and worthy. These are not my stories., they are the issues of our human nature.

We all have a human tendency to try to "be" worthy by doing certain things. The Christian who is starting to succeed in their faith life is the one who sees this and follows the Biblical remedy for the problem... Jesus is our righteousness. We are the righteousness of God IN Christ Jesus. And no other way.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 12, 2017

joaniemarie said:

Because of your false beliefs, you continue to misrepresent and malign Christians who confirm that just because a believer is positionally righteous in Christ does not mean that that is the end of the matter. Your false teachers have warped your mind with their Hyper Grace nonsense. So if you want to understand what true grace really means, then read, study, digest, and apply Scripture, instead of spouting the same warped dogma. We will focus on just ONE passage which blows away your beliefs (Titus 2:11,12):

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

So what does the grace of God teach believers?

1. We are to "deny" or reject ungodliness

2. We are to "deny" or reject worldly lusts

3. We are to live soberly as befits those who have been redeemed from the Kingdom of Darkness

4. We are to live righteously as befitting those who are positionally righteous

5. We are to live godly as befitting children of God

How is all this accomplished without the practical application of the Law of Christ (which is in fact a distillation of the Ten Commandments)?

Paul exposes false application of the law

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