Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

I will feed them to you slowly...

"3‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent." (Revelation 3: NASB)

(Folks, brace yourself for the 'they don't really mean that' arguments coming down the pike.)

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



see how this works? :;

 

[Nehemiah6]

...He only wants our faith...

That is not what the Bible reveals, and ths sounds like the Hyper Grace teaching that is deceiving so many.

Yes faith (with repentance as the opposite side of the same coin) is the prerequisite in order to be justified, but who taught you that justification is the end of the journey, when it is only the beginning? If justification is not followed by sanctification, then the so-called faith is an empty profession.

Faith requires instant obedience, and the first step of obedience is believer's baptism. But that is not where everything stops either. So sanctification includes separation from the world, the flesh, and the devil, as well as good works and obedience to Christ's commandments.

We should never distort Bible truth. We are not justified by good works, but we are sanctified through good works.

 

[stonesoffire]

I agree with your point here. Those of the mindset that say believers WILL produce works, and if they don't they were really not saved. Are saying exactly the same thing as you.

Salvation is Gods grace/free gift to anyone who believes. Acts 16:31. And they are eternally secure and will NEVER perish. John 10:28.

If,If,If we continue in His plan for our lives and produce divine good. He has rewards for those who abide(follow His plan) in Him.

Salvation is a done deal the moment we believe. We have eternal life.

Our rewards are based upon our obeying him or not obeying Him after we are saved.

Eph 2:10
King James Bible
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should(subjunctive mood/maybe we will/maybe we won't) walk in them.

Rev 22:12
New American Standard Bible
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

if, if, if....we are dead to sin and alive to God. Would you rather do, do, do? Or He does, does, do through you?

We can't heal anyone. We can't do miracles. We don't discern what motivates anyone. We don't have words that lead to Jesus.

and we have no anointing from self.

 

[stonesoffire]

That is not what the Bible reveals, and ths sounds like the Hyper Grace teaching that is deceiving so many.

Yes faith (with repentance as the opposite side of the same coin) is the prerequisite in order to be justified, but who taught you that justification is the end of the journey, when it is only the beginning? If justification is not followed by sanctification, then the so-called faith is an empty profession.

Faith requires instant obedience, and the first step of obedience is believer's baptism. But that is not where everything stops either. So sanctification includes separation from the world, the flesh, and the devil, as well as good works and obedience to Christ's commandments.

We should never distort Bible truth. We are not justified by good works, but we are sanctified through good works.

Faith is a spiritual substance in the heavenly realms that has the results of pleasing God, and motivates Him to act on our behalf.

 

[stonesoffire]

Now grace...it is more than unmerited favor. That is OT grace. Look at the Hebrew.

NT grace is not only unmerited, (not of works), but is the power of Holy Spirit working in us, and through us.

Which do you prefer?

 

[Mercy4u]

if, if, if....we are dead to sin and alive to God. Would you rather do, do, do? Or He does, does, do through you?

We can't heal anyone. We can't do miracles. We don't discern what motivates anyone. We don't have words that lead to Jesus.

and we have no anointing from self.

How is your day going? I don't understand your point?

 

[beastslayer1970]

Do you believe we can judge a gospel and if it is of God or not? The answer is sure we can...and there is but ONE correct message....not two, three or even fifty.....

If man "a" believes that he is saved by something other than what the bible teaches is the correct way....I can rightfully assume that has is probably not saved.....this is biblical and not contrary to the truth.......

on the internet, really now? Is the poster part of your immediate physical fellowship? if not, then what?

 

[beastslayer1970]

Isn't it the other way around? Doesn't the Holy Spirit do things through us? His work through us?
It is the Holy Spirit that works in and through us. I'm not sure that we do things through the Holy Spirit. All of the power is His. I could be wrong.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the believers life involves two things.

He comes within at conversion and he comes upon for service.

 

[VCO]

Only in your mind. Calvinists seem completely and utterly unable to understand Matthew 25:31-46 and how having the faith to be saved (not justified) from the lake of fire on the day of Judgment is measured by what you did. Those works don't earn the right to go to the right and into the kingdom. They are the proof of the person's claim to have the faith that justifies apart from works, which is the faith that loves (Galatians 5:6).

Even when you explain this Calvinists, and those influenced by Calvinism, they still can't see what you're saying. Even right now this second as you are reading this you can't help but to only be able to think in the 'works means you're trying to save yourself' rut of Calvinistic thought. I've never seen a more hardened indoctrination in the church than Calvinism. Even people who say they aren't Calvinist argue using arguments that show the Calvinist influence on their thinking.



No, that equals JUSTIFICATION. Faith that does not produce works is NOT salvation. Even you say that faith WILL produce works, so faith + works DOES = salvation, because ultimately true salvation won't be void of works. You can't argue the point.



Yes, faith (the ability to know something is true) is from God, but we have to respond to the gift of faith with our trust, our believing. And continue to respond to God's gift of 'knowing' with our trust. Trusting Christ is NOT the works gospel. But you have been trained to think that if you have to do ANYTHING to receive salvation and keep it you are working for your salvation, oblivious, it seems, to the fact that Paul said works of the law are what constitute the works that can not justify, not believing/ trusting in Christ, lol.

You are still putting the CART ahead of the HORSE. Maybe because you think Sanctification of the Body is the same thing as Salvation, when they are NOT the same thing.

The HORSE is SAVATION by Grace through Faith, which places the HOLY SPIRIT IN US, birthing our dead human spirit into eternal life; and HE pours GOD's LOVE into the eternally alive human spirit. That LOVE in turn is like seed, being planted in our spiritual being, AND IT WILL PRODUCE A HARVEST OF LOVE FOR HIM, THAT MANIFESTS ITSELF IN LOVING OBEDIENCE. THUS OBEDIENCE IS WHAT THE LOVE FOR GOD PRODUCES, IN OTHER WORDS THE CART THAT THE HORSE (SALVATION) PULLS. GOD's LOVE that was planted into our hearts the very moment we were SAVED, and it SPAWNS a harvest of the SAME KIND OF SEED, if there is fertile soil there; it will absolutely manifest itself in loving obedience. It is not a question of will you obey or won't you obey. It is a question of HAS GOD's LOVE been planted in your heart, finding fertile soil there?

 

[beastslayer1970]

so you can judge a persons heart, and know they were saved.

it is worse than I though..

VCO judged pharts salvation and implored him to be saved and you liked that comment. How come it works for you guys but not him?

 

[beastslayer1970]

explain what? You showed me a verse where people said they saw a group of people get saved, It does not say a word about individuals getting saved.

Only God can know that, are you God?

Please share this with our fellow believer VCO, he needs this lesson too.

 

[stonesoffire]

How is your day going? I don't understand your point?

I was taking issue with that one sentence. If we continue in His plan, and if we produce divine good.

There is our contention with each other.

We dont produce....Holy Spirit produces through us.

By the way...nice to meet you, and welcome to the forum. I don't think I've had the pleasure of chatting with you before.

Good day, thank you. And you?

ive seemed to have lost the gift of pleasantries of conversation. *sigh*

 

[stonesoffire]

The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the believers life involves two things.

He comes within at conversion and he comes upon for service.

I see what you both said being the same.

 

[VCO]

VCO judged pharts salvation and implored him to be saved and you liked that comment. How come it works for you guys but not him?

Discernment is not Judging, that term meant to PAST SENTENCE UPON, look it up.

The Mature Christian is SUPPOSED TO discern true, from false.

Romans 12:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

1 Corinthians 2:15 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else's scrutiny.


Since when is Calling someone to repentance, and Calling them to Come to the Lord, labeled Judging.
That is what the unsaved world does.


Revelation 22:17 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Both the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Anyone who hears should say, “Come!” And the one who is thirsty should come. Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift.


Acts 20:29-30 (ASV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Galatians 5:19-21 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Psalm 35:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] They do not speak peaceably, but devise false accusations against those who live quietly in the land.


2 Timothy 3:2-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Proverbs 6:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The LORD hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a lying witness who gives false testimony,
and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.


We thank you for showing your true colors early.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now grace...it is more than unmerited favor. That is OT grace. Look at the Hebrew.

NT grace is not only unmerited, (not of works), but is the power of Holy Spirit working in us, and through us.

Which do you prefer?

It is still unmerited even in the NT. Do you agree?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

VCO judged pharts salvation and implored him to be saved and you liked that comment. How come it works for you guys but not him?

You will have to forgive me, I have gone back many pages, and I can not find that post you spoke of. Can you please share it again?

 

[Mercy4u]

I was taking issue with that one sentence. If we continue in His plan, and if we produce divine good.

There is our contention with each other.

We dont produce....Holy Spirit produces through us.

By the way...nice to meet you, and welcome to the forum. I don't think I've had the pleasure of chatting with you before.

Good day, thank you. And you?

ive seemed to have lost the gift of pleasantries of conversation. *sigh*

I am having a great day. Off of work for the day and being lazy!

There is no contention in your statement between us. It is the Lord working through us.

But we can grieve and quench the Spirit and be out of his will. So even the good we think we are doing may be wood,hay and stubble. So we need to be sure we are properly motivated and walking in the Spirit.

Eph 4:30

New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thess 5:10

New American Standard Bible
Do not quench the Spirit;

 

[beastslayer1970]

Discernment is not Judging, that term meant to PAST SENTENCE UPON, look it up.

The Mature Christian is SUPPOSED TO discern true, from false.

Romans 12:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

1 Corinthians 2:15 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Those who are spiritual discern all things, and they are themselves subject to no one else's scrutiny.


Since when is Calling someone to repentance, and Calling them to Come to the Lord, labeled Judging.
That is what the unsaved world does.


Revelation 22:17 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Both the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Anyone who hears should say, “Come!” And the one who is thirsty should come. Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift.


Acts 20:29-30 (ASV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
[SUP]30 [/SUP] and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Galatians 5:19-21 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Psalm 35:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] They do not speak peaceably, but devise false accusations against those who live quietly in the land.


2 Timothy 3:2-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Proverbs 6:16-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The LORD hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a lying witness who gives false testimony,
and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.


We thank you for showing your true colors early.

The only true colors glowing here are the ones used in your posts.

Previous posts are facts that you and some others of your , like minded brothers, engage in deep contradiction. I am not saying it is evil or the people employing it are evil. It is only an age old apologetic trick and used as as a means of defending how people internalize the Bible and are led by the Holy Spirit in regards to the salvation doctrine.

Brother, do you know phart personally, as in met him in person and sat down with him? If you do not or have not, your discernment means nothing, because we are on a discussion chat board and on the internet.


Now if you told me you sat down with him over coffee and pie several times and he was espousing doctrinal error in your church and you all applied Matt 18 church discipline to him and he refused all correction, which resulted in you, giving him the left hand of fellowship, then I could get inline with you and agree that righteous discernment was used and applied and you would have grounds for making a guess about his eternal condition.

As such on this board, you have done nothing but defend your position and made a judgement on someone you do not even really know. For all we know he could really be she and getting her kicks by making fools of all us.

 

[beastslayer1970]

I see what you both said being the same.

I see it that way to.

 

[beastslayer1970]

You will have to forgive me, I have gone back many pages, and I can not find that post you spoke of. Can you please share it again?

Post number 44365:

Please repent, and COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, and RECEIVE HIM AS LORD, and GOD's LOVE will be poured into you.

eternally-gratefull, Limey410v2 and TruthTalk like this.

In full disclosure:
This is only the last statement of the compete post. Readers can go to the post number and judge for themselves.



VCO asks Phart in the his quote aboveto repent and come to the Lord, this is a direct statement, not an implication, discernement or guess. Furthermore the judgement seems to then imply the Love of God has not been shed abroad in pharts heart by the HOly Spirit. A falsehood, considering VCO has not probably ever met phart and therefore cannot really discern his love walk, heart or eternal condition, like you have stated phart cannot.

You gave phart a rough time for doing exactly what a like minded brother of yours did, yet do not reprove him as you did phart.. If you are the Christian you like to say you are, it would be honorable and right to take brother VCO aside and explain/reprove him that he also cannot discern salvation or another persons need to repent, or make judgements on their love walk or eternal condition. And before the excuse is used, VCO did not call out a false teacher, he made a direct statement for someone to repent and come to the Lord and let the Lord's love fill his heart.