Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, 1 Cor 12:11 indicates the one and the selfsame Spirit works the manifestation within the born again believer.

The manifestation is not energized within those who are not born again (natural man).

1 Cor. 12:11 it is simply stating that all these gifts/manifestations are given by one in the same Spirit as opposed to a specific Spirit for each manifestation. The Spirit gives these abilities to whomever it wishes and to the degree that it wishes. One does not need to be born again to be given a manifestation/gift from the Holy Spirit; it does not discriminate.

While God gives freely to all mankind (believers as well as non-believers), I respectfully disagree with you that the manifestation shown in 1 Cor 12:8-10 is worked within those who are not born again.

In reading Acts, each instance of speaking in tongues is preceded by those who spoke becoming born again.

While the concern of Paul is the edification of the church congregation, there is also reference to the personal edification of the believer who speaks in tongues. That you fail to recognize this fact does not negate that Paul does, in fact, claim there is a benefit to the individual. The benefit is spiritual as opposed to mental or physical.

I don’t think I ever said there wasn’t a benefit to the speaker; on the contrary, why shouldn’t there be? He understands what he’s saying (while others do not) thus;

No. The speaker does not understand what he/she is saying. Others present may or may not understand.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The spirit of the one speaking in tongues is praying. The understanding of the one speaking in tongues is not benefitted.

in fact, the benefit would only be to the one speaking – I think that’s Paul’s whole point here: clarity and understanding in a public setting such that all may benefit. If what is being said at a public worship is only understood by the speaker, it benefits only him and no one else.

Again, the person speaking in tongues does not understand what he/she is saying.


1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul, in a sense, admonishes the speaker to either get an interpreter (i.e. translator) so everyone can benefit, or pray silently so as not to cause a disturbance/distraction.

Paul clarifies that when spoken aloud in the church congregation, the manifestation of tongues is to be followed with the manifestation of interpretation of tongues.

And, yes, in agreement that if there is no interpretation, the believer is to speak in tongues silently to God.

So now you're saying that there are many and various Scriptural interpretations and all are okay?

Yes, of course there is more than one understanding/interpretation of the Bible – yours is no more correct/better than any other, nor is mine for that matter.

While I agree that none of us understands Scripture perfectly, we are to endeavor to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

What I’m pointing out is that sometimes you have to look at a given passage in another light than what you may be used to. The interpretation I used is completely viable and, given the historical real-life situation with respect to everyday communication in a multi-port and multi-cultural city like Corinth, seems to make considerable more sense than postulating something supernatural that’s occurring. Sometimes what’s reported in the Bible is just plain factual data regarding a given situation; it’s nothing more earthshattering than that. At times, it helps to put things into a historical perspective; but because it’s reported in the Bible, people look for something more that just isn’t really there.

And sometimes, as in the case with 1 Corinthians 12 – 14, the Bible does speak of spiritual matters. In fact, 1 Cor 12:1 tells us that is exactly what Paul is dealing with in order that we be not ignorant of spiritual matters. (And I know the verse states spiritual gifts. However, the word "gifts" is in italics, which alerts us that the word was added to the text. The word "spiritual" in 1 Cor 12:1 is the Greek word pneumatikos and, according to HELPS Word-studies, it means "spiritual; relating to the realm of the spirit"). pneumatikos is translated "spiritual things" in Rom 15:27, 1 Cor 2:13, 1 Cor 9:11. Not sure why the translators translated the word as "spiritual gifts" in 1 Cor 12:1 as it has caused nothing but confusion when it comes to the manifestation.

Again, your opinion that the manifestation is "just a tool, created by man, to establish a closer relationship with the divine" is complete contradiction to what Scripture indicates in 1 Cor 12.

In light of Biblical ‘tongues’ (read ‘real language(s)’ here) there is no contradiction as real languages, not non-cognitive non-language utterance (modern ‘tongues’), are what’s being referenced in the Bible with respect to ‘tongues’. One of the pitfalls of using 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century English in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century.

My comment was directed at your statement that the manifestation is "just a tool, created by man, to establish a closer relationship with the divine". That statement contradicts Scripture.

Nice try. No one can fault you in your endeavor to render that which is spiritual as merely a mundane attempt to "establish a closer relationship with the divine" is complete contradiction to what Scripture indicates in 1 Cor 12.

See above. The experience can certainly be very spiritual (I don’t think I ever indicated it wasn’t), but modern tongues are a tool; nothing more. No difference in what you’re doing as opposed to a shaman somewhere in Siberia.

While you may know what a "shaman somewhere in Siberia" does, you do not know me well enough to state I do as the shaman does.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is no such thing as "tongues for purpose of evangelism". Tongues is not for missionary work, or outreach. Its primary use is for the individual believer, for his edification. Whenever tongues is spoken in public, it must be interpreted so the church can be edified.

Did you notice the self-contradiction within these sentences? If it is "primarily" for the edification of the individual, then it cannot be primarily for the edification of the church. But according to Scripture all spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church.

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Anyone who is prepared to read this without a Pentecostal bias can see that what Paul is saying is that the purpose of spiritual gifts if for the edification of others, therefore HE WOULD RATHER you prophesied than spoke in tongues.

Of course, since both the gifts of prophecy and tongues ceased with the end of the Apostolic Age (1 Cor 13:8), the whole question is moot.

God now gives evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the edification of the saints. And those who edify themselves with *tongues* violate both the spirit and the letter of this epistle.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Not about my sensibilities it is about you stating that I wrote things when I did not.

Je suis fini

Translation

Done

Well, UnderGrace, when you state

"when Paul uses the singular he is speaking about the counterfeit (ecstatic speech)"​

and when we read 1 Cor 14:27-28

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, ... and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God,​

a person could come to the conclusion that you believe Paul was encouraging (or allowing if you prefer) the believers to speak in the counterfeit to God.


However, it appears I have again upset you and I bid you adieu.

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree, there is an inability to read the words of Paul with fresh eyes and objectivity, and then reevaluating the entire tone and the historical context of his letter.

Not one single line in this chapter can be properly understood when pulled out from the context of the entire letter.

Did you notice the self-contradiction within these sentences? If it is "primarily" for the edification of the individual, then it cannot be primarily for the edification of the church. But according to Scripture all spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church.

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Anyone who is prepared to read this without a Pentecostal bias can see that what Paul is saying is that the purpose of spiritual gifts if for the edification of others, therefore HE WOULD RATHER you prophesied than spoke in tongues.

Of course, since both the gifts of prophecy and tongues ceased with the end of the Apostolic Age (1 Cor 13:8), the whole question is moot.

God now gives evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the edification of the saints. And those who edify themselves with *tongues* violate both the spirit and the letter of this epistle.

 

[UnderGrace]

Not upset by any means, there is no way I am succeeding in getting my point understood, if I find another way I will let you know.

Well, UnderGrace, when you state

"when Paul uses the singular he is speaking about the counterfeit (ecstatic speech)"​

and when we read 1 Cor 14:27-28

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, ... and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God,​

a person could come to the conclusion that you believe Paul was encouraging (or allowing if you prefer) the believers to speak in the counterfeit to God.


However, it appears I have again upset you and I bid you adieu.

 

[BenFTW]

Did you notice the self-contradiction within these sentences? If it is "primarily" for the edification of the individual, then it cannot be primarily for the edification of the church. But according to Scripture all spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church.

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Anyone who is prepared to read this without a Pentecostal bias can see that what Paul is saying is that the purpose of spiritual gifts if for the edification of others, therefore HE WOULD RATHER you prophesied than spoke in tongues.

Of course, since both the gifts of prophecy and tongues ceased with the end of the Apostolic Age (1 Cor 13:8), the whole question is moot.

God now gives evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the edification of the saints. And those who edify themselves with *tongues* violate both the spirit and the letter of this epistle.

How does the ending of the so called "Apostolic Age" denote the ceasing of prophecy and tongues? I would remind you that people that were not apostles spoke in tongues and gave prophecy. So, regardless of their passing (the apostles), the gifts were not just a sign to signify the authority of the apostles but were manifestations of the Spirit that regular believers operated in.

So even if we grant you this idea of an Apostolic Age, it in no way signifies the ceasing of any gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Enow]

How about a thread on Walking on Water Privately?

We could start with having all non-tongue speaker talk about their private experiences on walking on water. We could say how invaluable it is and how it benefits the non-tongue speakers being able to walk on water. One of the non-tongue speakers could even teach that ALL believers are given this ability by the Holy Spirit at their salvation.

Then the majority of non-tongue speakers say they were able to walk on water by the second blessing.

Then a few more of the non-tongue speakers say that there are more infillings where all believers can call fire down from Heaven and burn cities and/or cast mountains into the sea and/or even part the Red Sea like Moses did.

But of course all these miracles you have to take by word of mouth. Besides, non-tongue speakers talking abut being able to do all that "privately" are humble and modest. They don't want to appear as a show off.

Most non-tongue speakers lightly chasten or ignore those few non-tongue speakers with extra bragging rights.

The tongue speakers will be skeptical and ask why are the non-tongue speakers talking about walking on water privately when they cannot do that? Why are they talking about that ability to other walkers on water when it can only happen privately as between them individually and the Lord? There is no edification given to other walkers on water so why share about that ability that is supposed to be between them and the Lord, supposedly?

And why talk about receiving another infilling by a sign of walking on water?

And why does that one walker on water say that everybody has the ability to walk on water given by the Holy Spirit at their salvation when obviously tongue speakers cannot do that, no matter how much they want to?

Now wouldn't the tongue speakers say to the non-tongue speakers that what non-tongue speakers are promoting divides the body of Christ;

That non-tongue speakers are separating themselves from the rest of the believers that are tongue speakers of that body of Christ;

That there is an extra special infilling that only allows non-tongue speaker to walk on water, but yet one says, not so, that all believers have the ability to walk on water given by the Holy Spirit at their salvation?

Then one tongue speaker asks, why talk about something that only edifies or benefits the walker on water privately? Why speak of that which hardly edify or benefit other walker on water when it is between the walker & the Lord privately? Why talk about that with tongue speakers other than to come off bragging about something that benefits them not?

Have I made my point about this thread and that topic? Yeah.. I know.. only God can open the eyes to see that.

 

[BenFTW]

How about a thread on Walking on Water Privately?

We could start with having all non-tongue speaker talk about their private experiences on walking on water. We could say how invaluable it is and how it benefits the non-tongue speakers being able to walk on water. One of the non-tongue speakers could even teach that ALL believers are given this ability by the Holy Spirit at their salvation.

Then the majority of non-tongue speakers say they were able to walk on water by the second blessing.

Then a few more of the non-tongue speakers say that there are more infillings where all believers can call fire down from Heaven and burn cities and/or cast mountains into the sea and/or even part the Red Sea like Moses did.

But of course all these miracles you have to take by word of mouth. Besides, non-tongue speakers talking abut being able to do all that "privately" are humble and modest. They don't want to appear as a show off.

Most non-tongue speakers lightly chasten or ignore those few non-tongue speakers with extra bragging rights.

The tongue speakers will be skeptical and ask why are the non-tongue speakers talking about walking on water privately when they cannot do that? Why are they talking about that ability to other walkers on water when it can only happen privately as between them individually and the Lord? There is no edification given to other walkers on water so why share about that ability that is supposed to be between them and the Lord, supposedly?

And why talk about receiving another infilling by a sign of walking on water?

And why does that one walker on water say that everybody has the ability to walk on water given by the Holy Spirit at their salvation when obviously tongue speakers cannot do that, no matter how much they want to?

Now wouldn't the tongue speakers say to the non-tongue speakers that what non-tongue speakers are promoting divides the body of Christ;

That non-tongue speakers are separating themselves from the rest of the believers that are tongue speakers of that body of Christ;

That there is an extra special infilling that only allows non-tongue speaker to walk on water, but yet one says, not so, that all believers have the ability to walk on water given by the Holy Spirit at their salvation?

Then one tongue speaker asks, why talk about something that only edifies or benefits the walker on water privately? Why speak of that which hardly edify or benefit other walker on water when it is between the walker & the Lord privately? Why talk about that with tongue speakers other than to come off bragging about something that benefits them not?

Have I made my point about this thread and that topic? Yeah.. I know.. only God can open the eyes to see that.

No one is adamantly opposing walking on water, like certain believers do towards the gift of tongues. Cessationists are like atheists, always speaking about something they don't believe in.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thanks for the chuckle

How about a thread on Walking on Water Privately?

We could start with having all non-tongue speaker talk about their private experiences on walking on water. We could say how invaluable it is and how it benefits the non-tongue speakers being able to walk on water. One of the non-tongue speakers could even teach that ALL believers are given this ability by the Holy Spirit at their salvation.

Then the majority of non-tongue speakers say they were able to walk on water by the second blessing.

Then a few more of the non-tongue speakers say that there are more infillings where all believers can call fire down from Heaven and burn cities and/or cast mountains into the sea and/or even part the Red Sea like Moses did.

But of course all these miracles you have to take by word of mouth. Besides, non-tongue speakers talking abut being able to do all that "privately" are humble and modest. They don't want to appear as a show off.

Most non-tongue speakers lightly chasten or ignore those few non-tongue speakers with extra bragging rights.

The tongue speakers will be skeptical and ask why are the non-tongue speakers talking about walking on water privately when they cannot do that? Why are they talking about that ability to other walkers on water when it can only happen privately as between them individually and the Lord? There is no edification given to other walkers on water so why share about that ability that is supposed to be between them and the Lord, supposedly?

And why talk about receiving another infilling by a sign of walking on water?

And why does that one walker on water say that everybody has the ability to walk on water given by the Holy Spirit at their salvation when obviously tongue speakers cannot do that, no matter how much they want to?

Now wouldn't the tongue speakers say to the non-tongue speakers that what non-tongue speakers are promoting divides the body of Christ;

That non-tongue speakers are separating themselves from the rest of the believers that are tongue speakers of that body of Christ;

That there is an extra special infilling that only allows non-tongue speaker to walk on water, but yet one says, not so, that all believers have the ability to walk on water given by the Holy Spirit at their salvation?

Then one tongue speaker asks, why talk about something that only edifies or benefits the walker on water privately? Why speak of that which hardly edify or benefit other walker on water when it is between the walker & the Lord privately? Why talk about that with tongue speakers other than to come off bragging about something that benefits them not?

Have I made my point about this thread and that topic? Yeah.. I know.. only God can open the eyes to see that.

 

[Enow]

No one is adamantly opposing walking on water, like certain believers do towards the gift of tongues. Cessationists are like atheists, always speaking about something they don't believe in.

But you are not talking about THE God's gift of tongues that is supposed to come with interpretation that DOES profit the body of Christ to edify the body of Christ withal.

YOU are talking about using tongues privately. It does not benefit talking to other tongue speakers about it when using tongues privately is between you & the Lord, "supposedly".

It certainly has no place in Bible Discussion other than to show off, separating yourselves from non-tongue speakers when obviously it benefits us NOT!!!

This is a vain thread.

 

[UnderGrace]

Would you prefer we lie and pretend...LOL

I think we should share why we believe that this present day manifestation for the most part
is glossolalia and not xenoglossa

(I say most part because there could be, or could have been a genuine occurrence even after the first century)


I really do not think we are as strident as atheists , although I do not consider myself a cessationist, do not like labels

No one is adamantly opposing walking on water, like certain believers do towards the gift of tongues. Cessationists are like atheists, always speaking about something they don't believe in.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So even if we grant you this idea of an Apostolic Age, it in no way signifies the ceasing of any gifts of the Spirit.

Well I did refer to 1 Cor 13:8, where the Holy Spirit -- through Paul -- told us that prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease. As to whether signs, wonders, and miracles continued after the Apostolic Age, we do not have any real evidence that they continued.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think this is why the two groups talk past each other, one group has redefined what the gift of tongues is by pulling a scripture out of the entire body of Paul's letter which is how it gets redefined

But you are not talking about THE God's gift of tongues that is supposed to come with interpretation that DOES profit the body of Christ to edify the body of Christ withal.

YOU are talking about using tongues privately. It does not benefit talking to other tongue speakers about it when using tongues privately is between you & the Lord, "supposedly".

It certainly has no place in Bible Discussion other than to show off, separating yourselves from non-tongue speakers when obviously it benefits us NOT!!!

This is a vain thread.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am quoting from B. B. Warfield's book Counterfeit Miracles (which is accessible online):

"There is little or no evidence at all for miracle-working during the first fifty years of the post-Apostolic church ; it is slight and unimportant for the next fifty years ; it grows more abundant during the next century (the third) ; and it becomes abundant and precise only in the fourth century, to increase still further in the fifth and beyond." [after the RCC came into force and presented counterfeit miracles]

Warfield did the necessary research (and his book is a classic), and what he is saying is that during the 100 years following the Apostolic Age, there were no reports of signs, wonders, and miracles. This corresponds to Paul's statement that these were "the signs of an apostle" and he himself had demonstrated his apostleship through these miracles.

 

[BenFTW]

But you are not talking about THE God's gift of tongues that is supposed to come with interpretation that DOES profit the body of Christ to edify the body of Christ withal.

YOU are talking about using tongues privately. It does not benefit talking to other tongue speakers about it when using tongues privately is between you & the Lord, "supposedly".

It certainly has no place in Bible Discussion other than to show off, separating yourselves from non-tongue speakers when obviously it benefits us NOT!!!

This is a vain thread.

It is addressing the false notion that tongues cannot be used for prayer (which is or can be, a private practice). The verses in 1 Corinthians 14 obviously speak of singing, praying, and even ministering to others in tongues. People erroneously suggest that tongues are only meant as a tool for evangelism, when scripture suggests otherwise. Not only suggests, but outright states it.

This is not about vanity, or looking spiritual before others. This is refuting with scripture people's false perceptions of tongues, their usage and purpose.

 

[UnderGrace]

Really?

The verses in 1 Corinthians 14 obviously speak of singing, praying, and even ministering to others in tongues.

So this language has the ability to minister to others even when the language is not intelligible, so then there are entire congregations across the globe that do practice this and they are missing out on this ministering

It is addressing the false notion that tongues cannot be used for prayer (which is or can be, a private practice). The verses in 1 Corinthians 14 obviously speak of singing, praying, and even ministering to others in tongues. People erroneously suggest that tongues are only meant as a tool for evangelism, when scripture suggests otherwise. Not only suggests, but outright states it.

This is not about vanity, or looking spiritual before others. This is refuting with scripture people's false perceptions of tongues, their usage and purpose.

 

[BenFTW]

Really?



So this language has the ability to minister to others even when the language is not intelligible, so then there are entire congregations across the globe that do practice this and they are missing out on this ministering

The gift of tongues is multi-faceted, it doesn't serve a singular purpose. It can be used for prayer, or worship (praying with the spirit, and singing with the spirit). It also can be used to minister to others, edify them, as you interpret the tongues. Such concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[UnderGrace]

So does then the glossolalia speaker prays or sings at a higher spiritual level than the born again non glossolalia speaker?

The gift of tongues is multi-faceted, it doesn't serve a singular purpose. It can be used for prayer, or worship (praying with the spirit, and singing with the spirit). It also can be used to minister to others, edify them, as you interpret the tongues. Such concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[BenFTW]

So does then the glossolalia speaker prays or sings at a higher spiritual level than the born again non glossolalia speaker?

A higher spiritual level? No, both prayers reach the Father. Only praying in tongues is guided by the Holy Spirit, since He is the one giving the utterance. This allows your spirit to pray about things that you ought to pray about, and things you have no clue to pray about.

Even someone who doesn't operate in the gift of tongues can pray about things they ought to or previously didn't know about praying for, but this requires one to listen for His voice (maybe its an image in your mind, a word, a whisper, etc) and then, obviously, praying about what the Lord has shown you.

Both prayer with understanding and prayer with tongues are beneficial.

 

[UnderGrace]

So what is tongues/glossolalia for you?

What is it that happens, do you loose control and sounds just pour out of your mouth?

Can you do that this at any moment.

Are saying here

as you interpret the tongues

that you interpret/translate your own glossolalia

A higher spiritual level? No, both prayers reach the Father. Only praying in tongues is guided by the Holy Spirit, since He is the one giving the utterance. This allows your spirit to pray about things that you ought to pray about, and things you have no clue to pray about.

Even someone who doesn't operate in the gift of tongues can pray about things they ought to or previously didn't know about praying for, but this requires one to listen for His voice (maybe its an image in your mind, a word, a whisper, etc) and then, obviously, praying about what the Lord has shown you.

Both prayer with understanding and prayer with tongues are beneficial.