Cessationism

[Depleted]

Oh so the elect do not empty their wallets to MacArthur or Sproul? Last I read MacArthur makes over $1million a year, now please justify that for us, that its ok MacArthur to reap it in and not other false teachers.

Straw man arguments two ways:
1. How to make a million dollars a year -- become a pastor, (I'm ball-parking that includes a salary of roughly $45,000 a year), make a radio show, (no idea what they get paid), write 17 books and earn royalties. So, yeah, feel free to do it yourself.

2. Making a million+ a year does not automatically turn you into a false teacher.

Didn't peg you as a reverse-money snob.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Some things to consider; I'm just going to hit on some of the points briefly mentioned here. Perspective is everything. I know that I'm not necessarily touching on the gifts specifically in this post, but I felt that needed to be said.

So what about falling out in the Spirit? Is this unbiblical? There are verses in scripture that speak of the "-weight- of His glory", and also verses that speak of entering His presence "I will enter His gates". There are also verses that describe worshiping Him by falling prostrate to the ground at His feet. This can happen when we are overwhelmed by the weight of His glory. It is not by any means unscriptural.

I have seen people come under the power of God and fall to their knees without anyone around them or touching them or laying on of hands.

Now as for so-called "rowdy inappropriate worship", consider King David when the presence of the Lord arrived. It is right there in scripture. And God approved of his worship!

I do not believe light and dark fellowship together. I love a variety of music and musical instruments and believe worship can be awesome and rowdy in a well lit sanctuary. I love chorus' and hymns that speak the truth of the word.

We do not need dark night club looking sanctuaries, smoke machines, painted black ceilings, computer programmed light shows that dance with the music, in fact we really do not need any kind of lights, except the regular house lights.

In the race to be relevant many churches have followed the lead of media companies, doing something on TV and once a week they call church. Some of these media companies are in fact ushering in seducing spirits. Many of the songs they produce and even some Christian "worship" leaders write go against the Bible.

But what about "let everything be done properly and in order"? Two things we have to keep in mind here. First, we must have an understanding of the context of Paul's audience. Second, in Heaven, worshiping properly and in order involves multi-winged creatures covered in eyes singing "Holy!"

A large portion of the church body in the USA is racing down the road of trying to be relevant to the world and forgot something very important. Jesus and his "squad" did not reach the world by being popular or relevant.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Straw man arguments two ways:
1. How to make a million dollars a year -- become a pastor, (I'm ball-parking that includes a salary of roughly $45,000 a year), make a radio show, (no idea what they get paid), write 17 books and earn royalties. So, yeah, feel free to do it yourself.

2. Making a million+ a year does not automatically turn you into a false teacher.

Didn't peg you as a reverse-money snob.

I merely brought this up because reformers love to castrate other false profits that fill the airwaves and cable channels but hardly ever take to task their own. I feel the exact same way about Hillsong, Bethel, Steven Furtick, Benny Hinn, and the whole wrecking crew ring leaders of the prosperity message, headed up by Kenneth Copeland.

I am not against preachers being comfortable and blessed, but just how much square feet, how many cars and planes and bank accounts does a preacher need?

 

[Depleted]

Let's remind ourselves for a minute that Cessation vs Continuation has no bearing on ones Salvation, and perhaps all take a chill pill for a moment. There is not nor was there ever a need for such division over this topic.

Don't worry. You didn't do this. These factions actually follow each other to argue all the time. You merely provided another thing to argue about.

 

[Depleted]

What did you really expect?!

Grown ups. Remember being one?

 

[JairCrawford]

I have seen people come under the power of God and fall to their knees without anyone around them or touching them or laying on of hands.



I do not believe light and dark fellowship together. I love a variety of music and musical instruments and believe worship can be awesome and rowdy in a well lit sanctuary. I love chorus' and hymns that speak the truth of the word.

We do not need dark night club looking sanctuaries, smoke machines, painted black ceilings, computer programmed light shows that dance with the music, in fact we really do not need any kind of lights, except the regular house lights.

In the race to be relevant many churches have followed the lead of media companies, doing something on TV and once a week they call church. Some of these media companies are in fact ushering in seducing spirits. Many of the songs they produce and even some Christian "worship" leaders write go against the Bible.




A large portion of the church body in the USA is racing down the road of trying to be relevant to the world and forgot something very important. Jesus and his "squad" did not reach the world by being popular or relevant.

I agree with much of what you're saying. However I think you're taking the light and dark motif a little too literally. What is wrong with a dark ceiling? It is simply a color. God invented all colors.

I agree with you on being "relevant" though. I truly believe we can quench the Spirit unknowingly by doing that.

I myself have fallen under the weight of His glory before, and nobody had to lay hands on me. I was simply playing a worship song on my keyboard and it happened. I will never forget the revelation of His love I felt at that moment. It's not something that can ever be simply learned.

 

[Enow]

Straw man arguments two ways:
1. How to make a million dollars a year -- become a pastor, (I'm ball-parking that includes a salary of roughly $45,000 a year), make a radio show, (no idea what they get paid), write 17 books and earn royalties. So, yeah, feel free to do it yourself.

2. Making a million+ a year does not automatically turn you into a false teacher.

Didn't peg you as a reverse-money snob.

Don't forget ministries that promote planting a seed to get financial rewards in return; as in the prosperity gospel. Those defrauding con-artists are living in the lap of luxury at believers' expense in the hopes of gaining riches by giving to the ministries. Huge difference between ministers that don't give false promises to gain their earnings that way.

 

[Depleted]

Anytime you're in the BDF just read every post as escalated. Even the first post.

Not true!

Simply not true.

How can you say such a thing?

lol

 

[beastslayer1970]

I agree with much of what you're saying. However I think you're taking the light and dark motif a little too literally. What is wrong with a dark ceiling? It is simply a color. God invented all colors.

I agree with you on being "relevant" though. I truly believe we can quench the Spirit unknowingly by doing that.

I myself have fallen under the weight of His glory before, and nobody had to lay hands on me. I was simply playing a worship song on my keyboard and it happened. I will never forget the revelation of His love I felt at that moment. It's not something that can ever be simply learned.

RE: ceiling colors. I said that because very relevant seeking church is taught, the first thing you do is paint the ceiling black to "set" the atmosphere for worship for the "gathering" Same terms and things used in occult, pagan and satanic worship.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Don't forget ministries that promote planting a seed to get financial rewards in return; as in the prosperity gospel. Those defrauding con-artists are living in the lap of luxury at believers' expense in the hopes of gaining riches by giving to the ministries. Huge difference between ministers that don't give false promises to gain their earnings that way.

Buy my book is just as evil as give me $50 dollars and you will receive $100 back.

 

[Depleted]

What does he do with the money? That's what's important. And no, we don't empty our wallets. Please explain how MacArthur is a false teacher.

Should we all list what we do with our money or we're pointless? Honestly? No, he really doesn't have to show his annual budget so I can figure out if he is false or not. And how much we make doesn't really fit into any point. I'll grant you that I do think preachers are false when they beg for money "because the Lord said" they need another jet, but not because that's how they spend their money. Because that's what they preach as gospel.

 

[Depleted]

Continualism very well can and has lead people to a false Gospel. People trust those micale workers on the basis of miracles and experiences. Not saying this is true of all countinualist, but because so many false doctrines have come though countinualism it's a major concern.

Giving can lead to a false gospel. Does that mean we give up giving too?

It's not the subject matter that is the problem. It's the teaching and teacher that is.

 

[Depleted]

The problem there is not with believing that the gifts are still in operation, but rather that there are people being deceitful to push said false doctrines. Scripture warns us of this and yes, it is a real problem. But I've seen and heard so many people use this as reasoning for why the gifts have ceased altogether which is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water.

How gifts operate ain't doctrine.

-- Jesus is God.

-- God is triune.

-- Jesus was 100% man and 100% God while he was on earth.

-- Jesus really did die and come back.

-- Jesus is the ONLY way to be saved.

Them's doctrines.

How gifts operates is strongly-held beliefs, not doctrine. How easily we become legalist if we uphold every single thing we strongly believe IS doctrine! We really need to learn the difference between doctrine and strongly-held beliefs, or there will be no unity with absolutely anyone! We will be walking alone. And walking alone is not a good idea in the wilderness!

 

[Depleted]

Several of you seem to have big problems with "others" and their gifts. I usually only concern myself with the gifts I use.

Not good, considering the most help *I* have received in my life from others (vs. directly from the Lord) was from the gifts others had. Gifts are for edifying, after all. And I really don't think we need to edify ourselves.

 

[Depleted]

The consensus seems to be, "Well, I don't think I have any gifts, so obviously any others claiming to operate in them must be lying."

Might be half, might be majority, but definitely not consensus.

 

[Depleted]

I have the gift of irritation.

I'd tell Willie not to be jealous of my gift...
but I think he has it too.

I think there are more on this site with that gift than tongue-talkers.

Count me in! lol

 

[Depleted]

I am tired and get dense when I do, what do you mean by this?

Easy interpretation -- there are a lot less people who believe in all that post/pre/rapture/whatever theology than you can imagine right now.

It's rather like having an in-depth study on "can," but while you're busy thinking everyone else is talking about being able to do something, we're really talking aluminium or tin.

I do not bother with modern eschatological discussions most the time, and I usually don't hold it against the person no matter what you believe, but let's just say I think I am more likely to make friends with the Easter Bunny IRL than think anyone is going to see the end you think the earth finishes with, and I don't really need to know what you think for eschatology to say that.

You're problem is you keep thinking everyone thinks like you. There are a lot less people who believe whatever you believe than you can imagine right now.

 

[beastslayer1970]

Easy interpretation -- there are a lot less people who believe in all that post/pre/rapture/whatever theology than you can imagine right now.

It's rather like having an in-depth study on "can," but while you're busy thinking everyone else is talking about being able to do something, we're really talking aluminium or tin.

I do not bother with modern eschatological discussions most the time, and I usually don't hold it against the person no matter what you believe, but let's just say I think I am more likely to make friends with the Easter Bunny IRL than think anyone is going to see the end you think the earth finishes with, and I don't really need to know what you think for eschatology to say that.

You're problem is you keep thinking everyone thinks like you. There are a lot less people who believe whatever you believe than you can imagine right now.

Funny, I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture and you label me as such. Until you know what I believe I would appreciate you not projecting what you think I believe on the board.

This is how problems start.

 

[preacher4truth]

Buy my book is just as evil as give me $50 dollars and you will receive $100 back.

Wow, I never knew Wayne Grudem's work Systematic Theology was just as evil as the seed gift of faith heresy used to fleece the sheep. Who knew?

 

[Depleted]

Yes, but I believe the gifts aren't still in operation apart from the false doctrines that have come along with the use of spiritual gifts and miracles. There's no baby in the bath water to throw out as far as I can see. I don't think speaking in tounges or laying on of hands marks someone as a teacher of a false Gospel, but I think that where the practice came from.

Before I say what I'm about to say, understand, I am Reformed and belong to the PCA, which happens to be a successionist denomination. I come down on the 50/50 for the position. I think they're right in some instances, and wrong in other.

Okay, now that that is cleared up...

Check the bathwater again! There are babies in it!

You're going by what your church has taught you, and by your experience, however, of course you won't be seeing gifts operate, because you're in a church that doesn't think they still operate. Check out the bathwater some more. Because God has NOT changed, he gave us his word, and if it weren't for him and his gifts, you wouldn't be reading what I'm writing.

I'd be dead by now! I'm not sure which would have killed me. Pretty sure the UTI wouldn't have, but exactly where does one go when she has a UTI constantly and antibiotics can't clear it up? The bee sting could have killed me. I'm allergic to bees. The fire ant should have killed me. I'm allergic to regular ants, so I'm thinking a fire ant has to be worse. Regular ants caused hives all over my body. If God didn't heal me from fire ant, where would I be?

Definitely intense pain was killing me. Only reason I didn't give up is because hubby made me promise, and that wasn't going to last much longer. I knew how to kill myself in such a way to guarantee death but with no physical marks of how I did it left behind, so he could get the insurance policy money. If that didn't do it, him dying the three times he should have died, would have made it so I wouldn't need to hide the suicide.

And yet, each and every time God came through through gifts! Not just laying on of hands, although, yup, a biggie. Also the gift of mediation in prayer and the gift of praying-without ceasing. (Not my gift, to be clear. As I already said, other people's gifts have helped me the most.)

AND, the whole concept that you don't believe in gifts, (because your church teaches that), is kind of ridiculous in itself. TEACHING is a gift!

Evangelism is a gift. Mercy is a gift. The work of deacons is a gift. Word of wisdom is a gift. Helping is a gift. Exactly what are you against?

Prophecy? Really? The entire OT and NT is prophecy! Everything points to the same thing -- Christ on the cross taking our sins. Assuming you're reformed, isn't that exactly what your pastor teaches every Sunday, and possibly on Wednesday? That's biblical prophecy! Look it up. It's in the bathwater!

You're against tongue talking? Funny thing, dude! Hubby met a very old friend in the Lord. (Old in that the guy came to the Lord shortly before hubby did, and then they evangelized together back in the days of the Jesus Movement. Then lost touch, and found each other after service in a reformed church.) His friend had become a missionary in Africa raising up pastors to teach in the churches of Kenya. Reformed, so naturally he too was against tongue-talking too.

Until, during a church service, some new guy in the back of the church interrupted HIS service by babbling loudly. And, sure, he knew the native languages of Kenyans by then, and almost everyone else in the church thought the guy was babbling too. No Kenyan dialect at all.

Two men -- elders of that church -- stopped this friend from pulling the loud mouth aside. They knew what he was saying. He was speaking in a tongue of a tribe in the south part of Africa, that had been lost except to children who learned it from their grandparents half a century before hand. Something that generation never past on to the next generation. Something never said out loud in half a century. But those two elders, who were from Kenya, not the southern part of Africa, recognized it because they were the last generation taught it. And the man was glorifying God and talking to that specific church. They invited the man to finish by translating what he was saying.

And when he was done, he started laughing. Ends up, he had no idea what he was saying. He wasn't the kind of guy to do something like that. (Again, Reformed church, so who is stupid enough to go in that kind of church and do something like that? It's just not done, right? lol) And he had no roots in that southern tribe to have ever heard the language.

Hubby's old friend changed his mind about tongues that day. It is possible to be reformed and yet not be secessionist. It's simple really. Don't take your church's word for it. You're studying the Bible anyway. Take Jesus' word for it.

As far as I know, no mountain has fallen in the sea at the command of a believer. Jesus doesn't lie. Doesn't that suggest it will happen? Gifts haven't disappeared, because God hasn't changed his mind.

Apostles have disappeared, but mostly because it would be mean to keep someone who witness Christ still alive for this long. lol

Check the bathwater again.