Not By Works
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That is part of the beauty of the 12 step program 
We share our experience, strength, and hope, without judging or condemning others, offering suggestions when they ask for help. Of course there are principles that are given as musts, but they are not forced on people, who often come looking for help when they have hit bottom, and have what some call the gift of desperation, giving them a willingness they may not have had before. Many come to the rooms carrying a major resentment toward God and the church, though even atheists and other hard-core non-believers have eventually given their life to Christ if they are willing to stick around and do the work encompassed in the steps, which are solidly Biblically based, and God centered. As Bill said, those who have walked in the same problems come alongside those suffering, being there to lend a helping hand, offer support and encouragement, and share their own stories, which inspire others.
We share our experience, strength, and hope, without judging or condemning others, offering suggestions when they ask for help. Of course there are principles that are given as musts, but they are not forced on people, who often come looking for help when they have hit bottom, and have what some call the gift of desperation, giving them a willingness they may not have had before. Many come to the rooms carrying a major resentment toward God and the church, though even atheists and other hard-core non-believers have eventually given their life to Christ if they are willing to stick around and do the work encompassed in the steps, which are solidly Biblically based, and God centered. As Bill said, those who have walked in the same problems come alongside those suffering, being there to lend a helping hand, offer support and encouragement, and share their own stories, which inspire others. 
That is part of the beauty of the 12 step program We share our experience, strength, and hope, without judging or condemning others, offering suggestions when they ask for help. Of course there are principles that are given as musts, but they are not forced on people, who often come looking for help when they have hit bottom, and have what some call the gift of desperation, giving them a willingness they may not have had before. Many come to the rooms carrying a major resentment toward God and the church, though even atheists and other hard-core non-believers have eventually given their life to Christ if they are willing to stick around and do the work encompassed in the steps, which are solidly Biblically based, and God centered. As Bill said, those who have walked in the same problems come alongside those suffering, being there to lend a helping hand, offer support and encouragement, and share their own stories, which inspire others.
We share our experience, strength, and hope, without judging or condemning others, offering suggestions when they ask for help. Of course there are principles that are given as musts, but they are not forced on people, who often come looking for help when they have hit bottom, and have what some call the gift of desperation, giving them a willingness they may not have had before. Many come to the rooms carrying a major resentment toward God and the church, though even atheists and other hard-core non-believers have eventually given their life to Christ if they are willing to stick around and do the work encompassed in the steps, which are solidly Biblically based, and God centered. As Bill said, those who have walked in the same problems come alongside those suffering, being there to lend a helping hand, offer support and encouragement, and share their own stories, which inspire others.
Here we are witnessing Phart taking the seat of Jesus Christ and Judging the entire "Church to be in crisis." First of all that is a false blanket statement and beside which who appointed Phart Judge and Jury over the Church. Last I heard was the "gates of hell would not prevail against the Church," Matthew16:18.
Quote Phart: "How do you fellowship with someone who isn't like you and wants to live for and please God and only gives lip service to the grace of God? You can't of course. And I'm not expected to."
Honestly Phart, you need to bring your judgmental speech down a notch or two or three. And how is it you are able to know all of these people who attend all of these churches that are in a crisis, are you all knowing and have all wisdom like our Savior.
Quote Phart: "How do you fellowship with someone who isn't like you and wants to live for and please God and only gives lip service to the grace of God? You can't of course. And I'm not expected to."
Honestly Phart, you need to bring your judgmental speech down a notch or two or three. And how is it you are able to know all of these people who attend all of these churches that are in a crisis, are you all knowing and have all wisdom like our Savior.
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And that's why I love my church and not sure why he does but he is using me to come alongside broken hurt and damaged people. Both Christians and non Christians.
I walked alongside a guy with severe bipolar.
A hurting guy.
He believed in God, of the NT and not the OT.
He believed in Jesus but only as a good man.
He tried to take his life a few times. The last time he tried he actually died (had cpr 3 times)
When he woke up he said "********** God why the********** am I not dead?
His language was colourful to say the least.
Even when we met. But you know what I loved it cause he was being honest.
Anyway to cut a long story short after many months he called me.
Very distressed, he asked me 'If I don't become a Christian will you reject me?
After reassuring him that I loved him and was glad to have him as a friend the conversation on the phone ended.
He called me again 2 days later and asked if we could meet.
We did. If was apparent that he was very agitated.
"I need to feel connection to my God but I can't connect why not"
I just said "You wont because the connection is Jesus"
He said "Well how do I pray, what do I say?
I talked to him about the verses in Romans, if you confess.
So he said again "What shall I say?
I said just lay everything before him, what ever comes to mind.
So a man sat on his chair started taking to God and then his whole being just poured out.
He ended up on his knees, tears following, snot pouring and colourful language as he expressed himself.
Then he said "Jesus I need you so much, will you take this ***********(I said yes Jesus will) then he said Jesus I make you my lord and saviour.
Mate when he got off his knees I saw a totally different man.
His face had changed. He said to me "What's just happened, I'm tingling, I feel warm, I feel so lite.
He had a massive smile on his face.
I just said "Now your connected to God through Jesus"
Then he said, actually prayed "Thankyou God you kept me alive for this moment, now I know why you didn't want me to die"
I have to be honest, I was absolutely gobsmacked.
I spent the rest of the day saying to God "What on earth?
Anyway sorry for the long post.
I just wanted to make a point as such.
Love people where they are at, whether believers or not.
Never impose what we think is correct but allow God to work.
I will never ever forget a broken man's face turn into a face that just exuded a meeting with God.
This man is now being used by God, even though the odd colourful word still happens.
I walked alongside a guy with severe bipolar.
A hurting guy.
He believed in God, of the NT and not the OT.
He believed in Jesus but only as a good man.
He tried to take his life a few times. The last time he tried he actually died (had cpr 3 times)
When he woke up he said "********** God why the********** am I not dead?
His language was colourful to say the least.
Even when we met. But you know what I loved it cause he was being honest.
Anyway to cut a long story short after many months he called me.
Very distressed, he asked me 'If I don't become a Christian will you reject me?
After reassuring him that I loved him and was glad to have him as a friend the conversation on the phone ended.
He called me again 2 days later and asked if we could meet.
We did. If was apparent that he was very agitated.
"I need to feel connection to my God but I can't connect why not"
I just said "You wont because the connection is Jesus"
He said "Well how do I pray, what do I say?
I talked to him about the verses in Romans, if you confess.
So he said again "What shall I say?
I said just lay everything before him, what ever comes to mind.
So a man sat on his chair started taking to God and then his whole being just poured out.
He ended up on his knees, tears following, snot pouring and colourful language as he expressed himself.
Then he said "Jesus I need you so much, will you take this ***********(I said yes Jesus will) then he said Jesus I make you my lord and saviour.
Mate when he got off his knees I saw a totally different man.
His face had changed. He said to me "What's just happened, I'm tingling, I feel warm, I feel so lite.
He had a massive smile on his face.
I just said "Now your connected to God through Jesus"
Then he said, actually prayed "Thankyou God you kept me alive for this moment, now I know why you didn't want me to die"
I have to be honest, I was absolutely gobsmacked.
I spent the rest of the day saying to God "What on earth?
Anyway sorry for the long post.
I just wanted to make a point as such.
Love people where they are at, whether believers or not.
Never impose what we think is correct but allow God to work.
I will never ever forget a broken man's face turn into a face that just exuded a meeting with God.
This man is now being used by God, even though the odd colourful word still happens.
First of all, I am sorry if there was a slander on you. I did not read the thread where you were accused, so I do not have total understanding of what he said and you said. My only knowledge was what was posted here and to be honest, I cannot take any side in that fight.
Second, Do you or anyone else really think there is an impact to rebuke, reproof and correction on a chat board? If I was in a position of spiritual authority in real life over phart and he did this to you in person, I would rush to offer correction.
Not one person here, including myself as any real life spiritual authority over another, despite what we all do.I have to constantly remind myself of this, myself and moderate my posts accordingly
We simply cannot allow our feelers to get this hurt on a chat board. Sorry if that is met with resistance, hurt or anger, but it is how I see it.
Second, Do you or anyone else really think there is an impact to rebuke, reproof and correction on a chat board? If I was in a position of spiritual authority in real life over phart and he did this to you in person, I would rush to offer correction.
Not one person here, including myself as any real life spiritual authority over another, despite what we all do.I have to constantly remind myself of this, myself and moderate my posts accordingly
We simply cannot allow our feelers to get this hurt on a chat board. Sorry if that is met with resistance, hurt or anger, but it is how I see it.
Ok, I stand corrected and did not see that fully, so sorry for that.
I do not believe they would loose salvation, however, I believe the love walk, heart condition and intimacy with the Lord would be reduced. People can claim all day certain things of the world does not affect them. To a certain degree this would be true, but after awhile the conscience is seared.
I do not believe they would loose salvation, however, I believe the love walk, heart condition and intimacy with the Lord would be reduced. People can claim all day certain things of the world does not affect them. To a certain degree this would be true, but after awhile the conscience is seared.
Amen and amen and amen.
I suffered a severe gambling addiction for 30 years. Even though I hated it and begged every day for release.
It only came when I one day I said to God "Why do I gamble"
Then he said "At last note now we can deal with the cause of the effect"
Boy it was painful and hard.
I haven't gambled for 7 years and not had an inkling to do so.
The sad part was that I couldn't for all those years talk to someone for fear of condemnation.
Then praise God someone I didn't know sought this guy out who had gone MIA.
There is always a cause for the effect. This guy focused on that.
That's what Jesus did.
We should be the same
I suffered a severe gambling addiction for 30 years. Even though I hated it and begged every day for release.
It only came when I one day I said to God "Why do I gamble"
Then he said "At last note now we can deal with the cause of the effect"
Boy it was painful and hard.
I haven't gambled for 7 years and not had an inkling to do so.
The sad part was that I couldn't for all those years talk to someone for fear of condemnation.
Then praise God someone I didn't know sought this guy out who had gone MIA.
There is always a cause for the effect. This guy focused on that.
That's what Jesus did.
We should be the same
E
We have some people in my church most churches (like Pharts church) would have given up on, who are now on fire for God. Some hold leadership positions, and many help others who struggled with the same sins that defeated them for years. Even after they first came to christ.
If someone came at them like Phart. They would have left. End never come back, they di dnot need judged, they needed healed. And that is what God did, He healed them through love and proper chastening. Not through judgment and fear.
All we have to do is look through history, Fear never helped anyone do anything, Maybe for awhile. But eventually you had a rebellion. Because it is not our nature to submit to fear
A
I don't think people have that much self control over their emotions to "allow" it disallow being hurt.
I know I have Not. I also know that a rebuke by a friend even if They dont have "spiritual authority" over me is needed and make a difference in my life because I pray and consider the merit of any correct. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree but it does make me stop and pray about it.
The only person who has true spiritual authority over me is God and His Holy spirit. Everyone else is just my beloved brother or sister or an unbeliever who needs to meet Jesus and accept His salvation.
I know I have Not. I also know that a rebuke by a friend even if They dont have "spiritual authority" over me is needed and make a difference in my life because I pray and consider the merit of any correct. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree but it does make me stop and pray about it.
The only person who has true spiritual authority over me is God and His Holy spirit. Everyone else is just my beloved brother or sister or an unbeliever who needs to meet Jesus and accept His salvation.
Sorry if I was not clear, most of my replies on this topic deal with how we grow & disciple fellow believers in the local church, not the world.
I never once said we go on witch hunts in the world and expose sin in non-believers, nor do we go on witch hunts in the church and expose sin in believers and then tell someone they lost salvation.
The darkness cannot comprehend the light, so why would we go openly judge them?
I never once said we go on witch hunts in the world and expose sin in non-believers, nor do we go on witch hunts in the church and expose sin in believers and then tell someone they lost salvation.
The darkness cannot comprehend the light, so why would we go openly judge them?
E
I again would have to say, different people act different ways, Stephen king was a master writer. many said he was evil (I was even told I must not be saved because I read him) but I can tell fantasy from reality. He never caused me to walk away from God. Stop loving others, or become a maniac myself.
Yet some people can not read him, they would not react in a good way., and it may cause them to do not good things,
we also have the old adage, if it causes you to sin, don;t do it.
So some people should not do it, Unit does not mean we have to get legalistic and say no one should.