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Originally Posted by valiant
with apologies but Jehovah or Yehowah is impossible Hebrew. No Hebrew speaker would use it. It arises because the consonants of YHWH were intermingled with the vowels for Adonai to indicate to a reader that he should say Lord and not YHWH.
what has this to do with Hebrew?
I know Hebrew and my weapons are loaded. Sounds as though you are more ignorant than I thought.
I am seeking. Can't you answer the questions? Are you Catholic? Ignatius obviously laid a foundation for reverencing the pope and bishops. That is why I asked.
Would you like to discuss other writers from Antiquity? Eusebius or Epiphanius maybe?
I don't think you are Catholic or you would of said so.
Do you reverence the pope as the Father God? Or the Bishops as Jesus Christ himself? That is what he instructed.
Would you like to discuss other writers from Antiquity? Eusebius or Epiphanius maybe?
I don't think you are Catholic or you would of said so.
Do you reverence the pope as the Father God? Or the Bishops as Jesus Christ himself? That is what he instructed.
Well you said it came from Rev 1:10. There is nothing in scripture that proves that. If we were to use conjecture one might as well surmise that the Sabbath is the Lord's day due to the fact that Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath. But there is no real proof for that either. Quite the quandary.
So what scripture my friend? You have others I assume.
So what scripture my friend? You have others I assume.
This thread got off topic. The name or YHWH is pronounced different for different reasons. Y'howah is as close as I have come because the nikud revealed it.
Besides the name of the Father the name of Messiah Yahshua, Yeshua, Or whatever though it is important the early assembly of new converts started calling Messiah Jessi and the apostles kept teaching among them all that Messiah, "The Word" taught them... This includes the Sabbath day.
Really don't know what Mosaic law is because Messiah told the teachers of His day that they don't believe Moses because if they did they would have received Him. Today almost the same can be said. You have not not Messiah because if you believe Him you would also have received the testimony of Moses.
Besides the name of the Father the name of Messiah Yahshua, Yeshua, Or whatever though it is important the early assembly of new converts started calling Messiah Jessi and the apostles kept teaching among them all that Messiah, "The Word" taught them... This includes the Sabbath day.
Really don't know what Mosaic law is because Messiah told the teachers of His day that they don't believe Moses because if they did they would have received Him. Today almost the same can be said. You have not not Messiah because if you believe Him you would also have received the testimony of Moses.
Ignatius was heritic unless you are holding the pope in the same regards as God and the Bishops in the same light as Jesus. So what other church fathers?
First you say Scripture then you say early Christian writings.
Okay; what writings? Certainly you are not going on the writings of Ignatius.
Incidentally we are actually speaking about the Sabbath being changed to Sunday right?
First you say Scripture then you say early Christian writings.
Okay; what writings? Certainly you are not going on the writings of Ignatius.
Incidentally we are actually speaking about the Sabbath being changed to Sunday right?
Scripture says different:
Revelation 1:9-10, “I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה,a and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.”
How did any of the prophets 2,000, 4,000, or how every many years ago see the future if they lived so long ago? They were "in the Spirit" and prophesying. John wrote that 2,000 years ago and was prophesying the future. Where is any Scripture saying John was prophesying on Sunday?
Isaiah 13:1-8, "13:1, "The message concerning Baḇel which Yeshayahu son of Amots saw."13:2, "“Lift up a banner on the high mountain, raise your voice to them; wave your hand, let them enter the gates of the nobles."13:3, "“I have commanded My set-apart ones; I have also called My mighty men for My displeasure, My proudly exulting ones.”"13:4, "The noise of an uproar in the mountains, like that of many people! A noise of uproar of the reigns of nations gathered together!יהוה of hosts is gathering an army for battle."13:5, "They are coming from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, even יהוה and His weapons of displeasure, to destroy all the earth. (Isa 24:1-23, Isa 34:1-17, Isa 63:1-19 and Isa 66:1-24)"13:6, "Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty."13:7, "Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts,"13:8, "and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labour; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame!"
Malachi 4:1-6, "4:1, "“For look, the day shall come, burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch."4:2, "“But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall."4:3, "“And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts."4:4, "“Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’yl – laws and right-rulings."4:5, "“See, I am sending you Ěliyah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה., "“And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with utter destruction.”
Theres are but a few, not even half of the passages that shoe the day of YHWH is His executon of judgment upon the earth's inhabitants. However there is not a single verse saying the day of the Lord or the Lord's day is sunday.
Revelation 1:9-10, “I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה,a and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.”
How did any of the prophets 2,000, 4,000, or how every many years ago see the future if they lived so long ago? They were "in the Spirit" and prophesying. John wrote that 2,000 years ago and was prophesying the future. Where is any Scripture saying John was prophesying on Sunday?
Isaiah 13:1-8, "13:1, "The message concerning Baḇel which Yeshayahu son of Amots saw."13:2, "“Lift up a banner on the high mountain, raise your voice to them; wave your hand, let them enter the gates of the nobles."13:3, "“I have commanded My set-apart ones; I have also called My mighty men for My displeasure, My proudly exulting ones.”"13:4, "The noise of an uproar in the mountains, like that of many people! A noise of uproar of the reigns of nations gathered together!יהוה of hosts is gathering an army for battle."13:5, "They are coming from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, even יהוה and His weapons of displeasure, to destroy all the earth. (Isa 24:1-23, Isa 34:1-17, Isa 63:1-19 and Isa 66:1-24)"13:6, "Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty."13:7, "Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts,"13:8, "and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labour; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame!"
Malachi 4:1-6, "4:1, "“For look, the day shall come, burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch."4:2, "“But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall."4:3, "“And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts."4:4, "“Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’yl – laws and right-rulings."4:5, "“See, I am sending you Ěliyah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה., "“And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with utter destruction.”
Isaiah 13:9-11, “Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts, and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labor; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame! See, the day of יהוה is coming, fierce, with wrath and heat of displeasure, to lay the earth waste, and destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light. And I shall punish the world for its evil, and the wrong for their crookedness, and shall put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the pride of the ruthless.”
Ezekiel 13:1-9, "And the word of יהוה came to me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Yisra’yl who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, ‘Hear the word of יהוה!, "Thus said the Master יהוה, “Woe to the foolish prophets, who are following their own spirit, without having had a vision! O Yisra’yl, your prophets have been like foxes among ruins. You have not gone up into the breaches, nor do you build a wall for the house of Yisra’yl to stand in battle on the day of יהוה, Their visions are false and their divinations a lie, saying, ‘Thus declares יהוה,’ when יהוה has not sent them, yet they expected the word to be confirmed! Have you not seen a false vision, and have you not spoken a divination of lies? You say, ‘יהוה declares,’ when I have not spoken. Therefore thus said the Master יהוה, “Because you have spoken falsehood and seen lies, therefore see, I am against you,” declares the Master יהוה, My hand shall be against the prophets who see falsehood and who divine lies. They shall not be in the council of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Yisra’yl, and they shall not enter into the land of Yisra’yl. And you shall know that I am the Master יהוה."
Joel 1:14-20, "1:14, "Set apart a fast. Call an assembly, gather the elders, all the inhabitants of the land, into the House of יהוה your Strength, and cry out to יהוה."1:15, "Alas for the day! For the day of יהוה is near, and it comes as destruction from the Almighty."1:16, "Is not the food cut off before our eyes, joy and gladness from the House of our Mighty One?"1:17, "The seed has rotted under their clods, storehouses are laid waste, granaries are broken down, for the grain has withered."1:18, "How the beasts moan! The herds of cattle are restless, because they have no pasture. The flocks of sheep also perish."1:19, "I cry to You יהוה, for fire has consumed the pastures of the wilderness, and a flame has set on fire all the trees of the field."1:20, "Even the beasts of the field cry out to You, for the water streams are dried up, and fire has consumed the pastures of the wilderness."
Joel 2:28-32, "2:28, "“And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions."2:29, "“And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days."2:30, "“And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,"2:31, "the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה."2:32, "“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered.b For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapec as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.
Joel 2:28-32, "2:28, "“And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions."2:29, "“And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days."2:30, "“And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,"2:31, "the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה."2:32, "“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered.b For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapec as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.
Theres are but a few, not even half of the passages that shoe the day of YHWH is His executon of judgment upon the earth's inhabitants. However there is not a single verse saying the day of the Lord or the Lord's day is sunday.
Something of interest, and you have to have in mind that Sabbath means rest. Pay close attention to the first clause!!!
Section 7.) As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him(1) which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,(2) which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,(3) and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.(4)
(1) Ex 20:8,10,11; Isa 56:2,4,6,7.
(2) Ge 2:2,3; 1Co 16:1,2; Ac 20:7.
(3) Rev 1:10.
(4) Ex 20:8,10; Mt 5:17,18.
------------------------------------
Section 8.) This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations;(1) but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.(2)
(1) Ex 20:8; Ex 16:23,25,26,29,30; Ex 31:15; Ne 13:15-19,21,22.
(2) Isa 58:13; Mt 12:1-13.
WCF Ch 21 sec. 7 & 8 (A Presbyterian view)
Genesis 2:1-3, “Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their array. And in the seventh day the Mighty One completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And the Mighty One blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because on it He rested from all His work which the Mighty One in creating had made.”
Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
Isaiah 56:1-7, “Thus said יהוה, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who becomes strong in it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the gentile who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and are holding onto My covenant: to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off. Also the sons of the gentile who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and are holding onto My covenant, them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
Isaiah 56:1-7, “Thus said יהוה, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who becomes strong in it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the gentile who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and are holding onto My covenant: to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off. Also the sons of the gentile who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and are holding onto My covenant, them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
Something of interest, and you have to have in mind that Sabbath means rest. Pay close attention to the first clause!!!
Section 7.) As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto Him(1) which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,(2) which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,(3) and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.(4)
(1) Ex 20:8,10,11; Isa 56:2,4,6,7.
(2) Ge 2:2,3; 1Co 16:1,2; Ac 20:7.
(3) Rev 1:10.
(4) Ex 20:8,10; Mt 5:17,18.
------------------------------------
Section 8.) This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations;(1) but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.(2)
(1) Ex 20:8; Ex 16:23,25,26,29,30; Ex 31:15; Ne 13:15-19,21,22.
(2) Isa 58:13; Mt 12:1-13.
WCF Ch 21 sec. 7 & 8 (A Presbyterian view)
He was heretic to anyone who does not adhere to what he said in his letter to Smyrnaeans .
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishopSee that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles;
Then again if you are Catholic you don't have issue with that. But if you are a protestant you should.
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishopSee that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles;
Then again if you are Catholic you don't have issue with that. But if you are a protestant you should.