Me, too.

[blue_ladybug]

One well placed kick to the family jewels is all it takes...

 

[Depleted]

(by the way my response is only to your closing two sentences and i feel "poorly understood" is harsh)

Should I be teaching a plumber how to change an S-trap? If I did, the plumber would get I have a poor understanding of plumbing, and that said knowing I used the phrase S-trap correctly.

She did say some stuff that was right, but she has as much understanding of sexual harassment as I have of plumbing.

My understanding of sexual harassment is fairly good, (no expert, but I was taught how to counsel people after sexual-wrong-doings of all kinds, and then did counsel targets of sexual-wrong-doings for a couple of years), so can see where she is going wrong.

Biggest thing I see going wrong on this thread, is people likening sexual criminals to your average man or woman. No one is sexually assaulted (from harassed to rape) for sexual reasons. It's about power, not sex, for the creeps who do that.

And, that's why you might have thoughts that go toward sexual sin, but not thoughts that would turn you into a mugger/harasser/rapist.

Everyone seems to be certain we're talking about sex, but we're not. We're talking about people -- men and women -- who seek power over someone else in degrading ways. They're muggers, not horny.

 

[toinena]

Oh, @ Toinena! I am sorry. So sorry.

Why should you be sorry? I feel more sorry about the poor kid that did it. He is the real victim in my story. To think about all the sexual abuse he might have gone through to become this way, is really tragic.

Those few incidents in my life, are nothing compare to that.

 

[Depleted]

I never thought I was sexually harrased and it didn't cross my mind before this thread. But, thinking about it, I have actually, even me, been harrassed. I wasn't traumatizeed by it. I wasn't flattered about it.

But I got scared once, and that was in Rome, where five men grabbed me and touched me inappropiatly and of course I couldn't escape. My friend, that thought of herself as someone with superior looks, and I guess she had, thought this was strange why they attacked me and not her. I guess I was tall and blond in the midst of Italians....

The other time was on the train in France. An older man stroke his thighs against mine, trying to make me spread my legs. I was 22, I think. That one made me angry.

The third time was a couple of years ago. A man, also in a wheelchair, did some inappropriate touching on a cruise. That one made me freeze. I didn't recist and I didn't flee. I had already been trough traumatic experiences, and I didn't know how to handle it. I was confused and hurt and embarressed. (I did move eventually, and it resulted in rules of conduct in the organisation I was a leader of.)

The fourth time was a 13 year old refugee, that obviously had learned that was the way to get attention from adults. He stroke his hand up my thigh. That made me just incredibly sad. He also did similar things to other female staff members.

I don't feel like a victim, and I haven't thought of it as a problem for me, more as a problem for those that did it. I always dress quite decently and I am blessed with not a very attractive look or body, so I am not really worried about these things to happen again.

But what I do agree on, is that the problem is not the woman's but the man's.

This won't sound connected, but it is.

I'm left-handed, and in the US we drive our cars on the right side of the road. The brain is pre-programmed to react in certain ways to life threatening moments. One thing all people do when driving a car and someone is coming straight at them, is turn the wheel to get out of the way. For right-handed people, they turn the wheel to their right. This is good, since what is right of them is the side of the road, or, at the very worse, a car traveling the same direction they're going. (Not ideal, but better than hitting head on.) Not so good, if you're left-handed, because left-handers are more likely to turn the wheel to the left -- into oncoming traffic or the cement divider in the road.

I'm fine with being left-handed. Not so fine with becoming road-kill because of how my brain thinks. So, I've done something that works. I've spent time imagining the situation over and over again in my mind, and use my real muscles to act it out -- turn RIGHT!

This works.

You already know your precondition is to freeze. Freeze isn't working for you. Imagine what would work for you. (I'm not you, so I can't figure out what would work for you.) Play that scene in your mind and physically do the action you'd do at that moment. Give yourself refresher courses every once in a while in the future. Truly doing it with your arms/hands/feet/legs (whatever weapon you plan to use) gives you muscle memory along with brain memory. IF it ever happens again in the future, you won't freeze. You'll do what you planned to do.

It really works. I know it sounds like psycho-babble, but it really works.

 

[Depleted]

I think she got harassed because men think with their *ahem* and not their brain. Men can be dogs, that's a fact. So can women, but seems men are more so inclined. And yes, even pastors think with their wankers and not their brains. Men and women alike, think we can do anything we want when it comes to harassing someone, whether physically or sexually..

Yeah, but you think that way because something happened to you long ago that you haven't been counseled about to come to terms with it, so you think all men are scum bags out to get your intimate parts. It's not the truth. It's how you've colored your world. Counseling would help the bitterness and take away that victim-vibe you have, that only other abused people can see, and perverts will latch onto.

 

[toinena]

This won't sound connected, but it is.

I'm left-handed, and in the US we drive our cars on the right side of the road. The brain is pre-programmed to react in certain ways to life threatening moments. One thing all people do when driving a car and someone is coming straight at them, is turn the wheel to get out of the way. For right-handed people, they turn the wheel to their right. This is good, since what is right of them is the side of the road, or, at the very worse, a car traveling the same direction they're going. (Not ideal, but better than hitting head on.) Not so good, if you're left-handed, because left-handers are more likely to turn the wheel to the left -- into oncoming traffic or the cement divider in the road.

I'm fine with being left-handed. Not so fine with becoming road-kill because of how my brain thinks. So, I've done something that works. I've spent time imagining the situation over and over again in my mind, and use my real muscles to act it out -- turn RIGHT!

This works.

You already know your precondition is to freeze. Freeze isn't working for you. Imagine what would work for you. (I'm not you, so I can't figure out what would work for you.) Play that scene in your mind and physically do the action you'd do at that moment. Give yourself refresher courses every once in a while in the future. Truly doing it with your arms/hands/feet/legs (whatever weapon you plan to use) gives you muscle memory along with brain memory. IF it ever happens again in the future, you won't freeze. You'll do what you planned to do.

It really works. I know it sounds like psycho-babble, but it really works.

I think it will never happen again. The strategy, or reaction of freezing, comes from experiencing sever violent situations where it only would have escaleted the situation if I had tried to do anything. And, as I am so weak as I am, it would be fruitless to try anything at all.

As for the sexual harrasment, it is years ago this happened, and as I recognized my behaviour, I think I would react differently if it happens again.

 

[blue_ladybug]

You assume an awful lot about me, Lynn. And most of the time, you are WRONG. You keep saying I need counseling, but how do you know I haven't already done it? You don't so stop assuming that you do. And I DO NOT think ALL men are scumbags, I only think that of rapists and pedophiles.. I have no bitterness about what happened to me, I forgave them long ago.

Yeah, but you think that way because something happened to you long ago that you haven't been counseled about to come to terms with it, so you think all men are scum bags out to get your intimate parts. It's not the truth. It's how you've colored your world. Counseling would help the bitterness and take away that victim-vibe you have, that only other abused people can see, and perverts will latch onto.

 

[Depleted]

My 2 cents... because I have some free time today to be annoying.


1. Nobody thinks any women should be sexually abused - nobody thinks this except for a few soulless creeps who aren't listening anyway.


2. Therefore, it is wholly irrelevant for everyone to keep repeating their public outrage about sexual abuse... as if yelling louder will somehow make it stop.

A. Decent men don't need to hear it.
B. Soulless creeps aren't listening.

The incessant public outrage is just a waste of breath, and accomplishes nothing but virtue signaling.

I'm really sorry, but I think this is all it boils down to.
Decent men don't need to be continually berated for something they'd never do, and the creepy sociopaths aren't listening.

* I understand women are upset; I'm upset too... but yelling more doesn't do anything.


3. I think it's really terrible advice to suggest women "hurt" their attackers, and learn self defense as any kind of serious solution.

A. I think taking self defense is great... it's a great "last line of defense" for a woman.

B. However, as a "first line of defense" I think women should be taught to be HYPER AWARE, and CAUTIOUS, rather than relying on self defense training.

They should learn to be careful, and prudent, and develop their common sense.

C. If you think, even for a second, that the average woman can defend herself from the average man, even after learning some self defense... you've watched way too much TV.

Even if you think a woman with a black belt can defend herself from the average man, you've watched too much TV.
There's a reason fighters all fight in categories by weight and gender... it's because weight and gender matter.

A little tiny girl, even with a black belt, is NOT going to defend herself against a big strong man.

So it's good for women to learn some self defense (for emergencies), but they shouldn't rely on it.

My stupidity:
1. Hitchhiking on a already-deserted road at midnight Sunday night.
2. Taking a ride in a car full of "good-looking guys," (because good-looking guys would never need to force a woman into anything ) going the other way for a beer-run.
3. Following them to a dark desert house also in the middle of nowhere.

Their mistake:
1. Thinking one girl couldn't fight off 5 guys.

Ultimately they won, but it took five hours for a reason. I wasn't going to ever be easy on them. You have to be very careful around a girl aiming for the family jewels at every chance given. And threatening her with death, when she'd rather die than that, kills off most of the power they thought they had.

Don't underestimate fear and outrage in girls. We can be tough if we gotta.

And, yup. I do get you never have to estimate at all, because you're a guy, not a creep. They were not-guys. They were creeps!

And, yup, to the women! DON'T BE AS DUMB AS I WAS! Common-sense would have solved that problem before it even became a problem.

 

[maxwel]

Perhaps the reason we tell is not understood here. Certainly, there are women who have agendas different from mine, but while it is degrading to tell, to do so is a service to those who don't know. If I had told earlier, and if the church that I did had done something, other girls, boys, women, and men may have been saved what they went through. My daughter may have been saved from it. But what the church taught me was that I did not matter, and the men's faked "integrity" was more important than my safety, purity, and dignity. So no, I did not know how to protect my daughter, and no one would talk about it . . . including me, after a while!

Furthermore, because I and that church were silent, specific people in my acquaintance were damaged. A LOT of people. There were eventually lawsuits, although I did none, families broken up, and mental illness among a few. Fear among a lot.



The last pastor to accost me was my manager in large regional grocery store chain. I wanted my job, but, even knowing my husband had just recently been killed, he was constantly after me. Daily.
I was reared to be weak. I was small. But I determined that if he did anything again, I was going to hurt him. And I did. However, he got to keep his job; I did not.

Furthermore, you assume that it is "little girls" against "big men." That is not reality. So Larry was probably a foot taller. I was not a girl, and I hurt him.

I recently told my husband that if it ever happened again, I would hurt the person. And I will. I maybe an old lady, but I will hurt him!

I would like to think that since I am an old lady, it will never happen again. I may not worry about it happening, but that doesn't mean I don't have a plan.

1. The first two points of my post were not aimed at you, they were just comments about what's going on in the public right now.


2. If you have a personal story to tell that may help someone, then you should certainly tell it.


3. I think women should learn some self defense as a "last resort" for emergencies... but it's unwise to RELY on their ability to fight off a larger attacker.

One of the most prudent things for humans to do is to keep a REALISTIC view of their limitations.
Therefore, EXPECTING that you can RELIABLY fight off a stronger opponent -
this is probably unrealistic, and therefore dangerous.

Common Myths:
A. It is NOT true that a simple shot to the groin will save you during an attack.
- There is no guarantee your punch or kick will even find it's mark, especially under stress, and with your opponent actually moving around.
- It is also NOT true that this will necessarily stop an attacker at all.

B. It is also NOT true you can easily stop someone with a number of other tricks, like "eye pokes".
- They can fail for the same reasons above, and some of these are actually incredibly hard to do in a real fight.

Personal Anecdotes:
A. I know many women who are athletes, and body builders, and even black belts, who have FROZEN with fear during an attack... and couldn't do anything at all.

B. I know other women who have gained a black belt in some martial arts style, and were taught to believe they were "experts" at fighting, and in reality, they couldn't defend themselves at all. It was just a pack of lies told by some lousy dojo to take their money for years of training.

C. I know plenty of grown men with black belts who still can't fight. So getting some training doesn't necessarily mean anything at all.
* You have to be strong and fit, you need to have a good trainer, you need to train to a high level of skill, and then you need the ability to apply your skills under stress in a real attack.
* This is a lot to do.


I always recommend that women learn some self defense for EMERGENCIES...
but I also tell them not to rely on it, and to focus on being wise, prudent, and preventing dangerous situations.

 

[joefizz]

I am new here -- just a couple days into Christian Chat -- but I am sure this site has dealt with the "Me, too" campaign that continues in our country.

Yes, I joined in that campaign this year. Just a short "why":
Over my life, I was sexually harassed by four pastors, two neighbors, a coworker, and a stranger. Enough about that.

So I am going to write this simply, because the following problem is so simple I don't understand why anyone of average (and lower) intelligence doesn't understand.

The subject of this post is that, in my opinion,
1. Christian women sometimes wear clothes that are too revealing.
2. Christian women sometimes talk and act in ways they shouldn't.
3. Real men will not respond to the above, but weak ones often will.

If you are showing cleavage, that is a problem.
Too much leg? That is a problem.
Clothes too tight? That is a problem.

I know that some males don't need the above to be jerks, but we need to do our part to stop this idiocy.

Further, stop being silent about it! Confront. Tell. You must, not only to protect yourself but to protect others after you. It is embarrassing, it makes you feel dirty, but you have to tell!

And if you have to, hurt them. If you are not the fighting type, take a class to learn how to defend yourself.

And most important, teach your daughters and sons what is acceptable touch and what is not. If you don't, you set them up for abuse, participating in it.

Assure your daughters and sons that it is safe for them to tell you if someone makes them uncomfortable No matter who it is -- your father, a grandfather, an aunt, your close friend, the pastor -- protect your child. Support him/her. Comfort him/her. And if you need to prosecute, do it. If you need to change churches, shake the dust off your feet and move on.

So...The non Christian women don't need to put on "decent clothing" I have seen more non Christian women showing off more than just cleavage,tight clothing,and leg,good advice for Christian women too but you might wanna consider addressing "more than one group of women",because if you center in on Christian women and give them a hard time then it's not right because,in our society there are more than just a few "supposed Christian women" and "total unbelieving women" that are way too revealing yet they are allowed on tv or cheered on,not discrediting your message just clarifying that your OP sounds a bit prejudice.

 

[maxwel]

Beez,

If you got the impression I was criticizing you for sharing your personal stories, that's not what I meant.
I want to clear that up.
I wasn't trying to offend you.
If I did offend you, then I apologize... it wasn't my intent.

I was really talking about this thing that happens in our culture, where there's some abuse or rape story in the news, and then women start screaming "Abuse is bad! Abuse is bad!". Well of course abuse is bad. But they often just start repeating these strange mantras, over and over, and then pointing at every man as if we're ALL guilty, and we're ALL going to attack them.

It's weird and it's tiresome.

Anyway, I certainly think you should share your stories if you feel they can help anyone.


My ONLY point of disagreement with you was about self defense.
I don't think most women can reliably defend themselves against most men, and so they should RELY on other means to insure their safety.

God Bless,
Max

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Should I be teaching a plumber how to change an S-trap? If I did, the plumber would get I have a poor understanding of plumbing

maybe it just sounded harsh to me at the time

im sorry Lynn

 

[Willie-T]

I'm presently seeing a dentist for my prosthetic - he is probably in his late 60s - and always sitting by my chair. Often, he rests his hand on my thigh while talking to me. Some would yell "abuse", but I see nothing wrong in it. I even feel comforted. I sense that my body is the last thing on his mind, and he is of the "old school" when not every touch was abuse.

I have experienced what abuse looks and feels like, but are we maybe getting a little unbalanced with this?

Absolutely. If I felt the need to draw attention to myself as some women seem to try and do.... church would be the perfect place to cry, Sexual Harassment!" I could hardly count the number of times women feel they just have to reach out and touch me during conversations. I actually do get a little annoyed at it, but I certainly don't think that unwanted contact is anything sexual. But, even the single spinster who always manages to lay her boobs all over me each Sunday doesn't make me run to tell someone she is a pervert.

I honestly do think some women are just too sensitive, and possibly blow 90% of daily things all out of proportion.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Absolutely. If I felt the need to draw attention to myself as some women seem to try and do.... church would be the perfect place to cry, Sexual Harassment!" I could hardly count the number of times women feel they just have to reach out and touch me during conversations. I actually do get a little annoyed at it, but I certainly don't think that unwanted contact is anything sexual. But, even the single spinster who always manages to lay her boobs all over me each Sunday doesn't make me run to tell someone she is a pervert.

I honestly do think some women are just too sensitive, and possibly blow 90% of daily things all out of proportion.

i do that with somewhere between 3 - 17% of daily things depending on the day

im gettin better

 

[Willie-T]

i do that with somewhere between 3 - 17% of daily things depending on the day

im gettin better

Perhaps a lot of people have the initial tendency to react before thinking.... but I do believe "thinking" is required in almost any instance.

 

[mj007]

What are you on about? Do you also have a left handed screwdriver in case you turn it the wrong way? lol I'm left handed and haven't noticed how I would prefer to go left, or under take people (drive on left side of road)!

This won't sound connected, but it is.

I'm left-handed, and in the US we drive our cars on the right side of the road. The brain is pre-programmed to react in certain ways to life threatening moments. One thing all people do when driving a car and someone is coming straight at them, is turn the wheel to get out of the way. For right-handed people, they turn the wheel to their right. This is good, since what is right of them is the side of the road, or, at the very worse, a car traveling the same direction they're going. (Not ideal, but better than hitting head on.) Not so good, if you're left-handed, because left-handers are more likely to turn the wheel to the left -- into oncoming traffic or the cement divider in the road.

I'm fine with being left-handed. Not so fine with becoming road-kill because of how my brain thinks. So, I've done something that works. I've spent time imagining the situation over and over again in my mind, and use my real muscles to act it out -- turn RIGHT!

This works.

You already know your precondition is to freeze. Freeze isn't working for you. Imagine what would work for you. (I'm not you, so I can't figure out what would work for you.) Play that scene in your mind and physically do the action you'd do at that moment. Give yourself refresher courses every once in a while in the future. Truly doing it with your arms/hands/feet/legs (whatever weapon you plan to use) gives you muscle memory along with brain memory. IF it ever happens again in the future, you won't freeze. You'll do what you planned to do.

It really works. I know it sounds like psycho-babble, but it really works.

 

[Ugly]

So...The non Christian women don't need to put on "decent clothing" I have seen more non Christian women showing off more than just cleavage,tight clothing,and leg,good advice for Christian women too but you might wanna consider addressing "more than one group of women",because if you center in on Christian women and give them a hard time then it's not right because,in our society there are more than just a few "supposed Christian women" and "total unbelieving women" that are way too revealing yet they are allowed on tv or cheered on,not discrediting your message just clarifying that your OP sounds a bit prejudice.

Her message, on a Christian site, aimed at Christians, sounds prejudiced against non-christians?
So her post favors a group whose beliefs teach women to be modest to live in that modesty is prejudiced because she didn't also tell a group of people that encourage showing off their bodies because they don't have the same standard?
Of course messages to Christians and non-christians are going to vary. And of course focusing a message on a Christian site makes sense. That's not prejudiced against non-christians, it's common sense.

 

[Willie-T]

This won't sound connected, but it is.

I'm left-handed, and in the US we drive our cars on the right side of the road. The brain is pre-programmed to react in certain ways to life threatening moments. One thing all people do when driving a car and someone is coming straight at them, is turn the wheel to get out of the way. For right-handed people, they turn the wheel to their right. This is good, since what is right of them is the side of the road, or, at the very worse, a car traveling the same direction they're going. (Not ideal, but better than hitting head on.) Not so good, if you're left-handed, because left-handers are more likely to turn the wheel to the left -- into oncoming traffic or the cement divider in the road.

I'm fine with being left-handed. Not so fine with becoming road-kill because of how my brain thinks. So, I've done something that works. I've spent time imagining the situation over and over again in my mind, and use my real muscles to act it out -- turn RIGHT!

This works.

You already know your precondition is to freeze. Freeze isn't working for you. Imagine what would work for you. (I'm not you, so I can't figure out what would work for you.) Play that scene in your mind and physically do the action you'd do at that moment. Give yourself refresher courses every once in a while in the future. Truly doing it with your arms/hands/feet/legs (whatever weapon you plan to use) gives you muscle memory along with brain memory. IF it ever happens again in the future, you won't freeze. You'll do what you planned to do.

It really works. I know it sounds like psycho-babble, but it really works.

I can't say I've ever heard of that. But, I do know from having taken several Expert Riders Motorcycle Courses, that we do have a tendency to turn our vehicles, especially motorcycles, in the direction we are looking.

 

[Ugly]

I'm sorry I did not write in a more understandable way. I tried to be very simplistic with my words and descriptions, considering the ages of people who may have access to the site. What can I say?

By the way, the last pastor I worked for was a good, decent man with true integrity. I had to leave the other jobs, but I stayed at the latest one until I retired. He was an actual pleasure to work with.

Expect it on this site. There are always a few that blame the victim here. And those that interpret others words for them, then inform everyone what they each meant.
It doesn't matter how much you explain and clarify.

 

[joefizz]

Her message, on a Christian site, aimed at Christians, sounds prejudiced against non-christians?
So her post favors a group whose beliefs teach women to be modest to live in that modesty is prejudiced because she didn't also tell a group of people that encourage showing off their bodies because they don't have the same standard?
Of course messages to Christians and non-christians are going to vary. And of course focusing a message on a Christian site makes sense. That's not prejudiced against non-christians, it's common sense.

Well I know that's implied but not everyone will see that,hence my comment,because I know this a christian site but we have new comers that could glance and take the op as bias,like I said it's a good message just was stating from an observation stand point how it can be taken.