Sorry to disappoint you but I believe that the battle has not taken place yet. So I am not a "pure preterist".
Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”
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Sorry to disappoint you but I believe that the battle has not taken place yet. So I am not a "pure preterist".
You'd be better off not knowing that, since it could land on your back.
OK then, you explain it.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.....
Hebrews 1:1 NIV
Dear Children this is the last hour and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming even now many antichrists have come
this is how we know that it is the last hour
1 John 2:18 NIV
Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realised that they were naked so they sewed Fig Leaves together and made coverings for themselves
Gen 3:7
Early in the morning as he was on his way back to the city he was hungry. Seeing a Fig tree by the road he went up to it and found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it May you never bear fruit again
Now learn this lesson from the Fig Tree . As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out you know that Summer is near. Even so when you see all these things you know that it is near right at the door. I tell you the truth this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will never pass away.
Matt 24:32-34 NIV
The last days refer to the years from the resurrection to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
Jesus warned the religious leaders of what would happen if they didnt repent and they rejected him.
The Fig Tree represents Israel. It also represents trying to cover ones own sins. There is only one way to be cleansed of sin and that is through the shed blood of Christ. When Jesus cursed the Fig Tree he also cursed Israel because just as the tree bore no fruit neither did the Nation.
Hebrews 1:1 NIV
Dear Children this is the last hour and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming even now many antichrists have come
this is how we know that it is the last hour
1 John 2:18 NIV
Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realised that they were naked so they sewed Fig Leaves together and made coverings for themselves
Gen 3:7
Early in the morning as he was on his way back to the city he was hungry. Seeing a Fig tree by the road he went up to it and found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it May you never bear fruit again
Now learn this lesson from the Fig Tree . As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out you know that Summer is near. Even so when you see all these things you know that it is near right at the door. I tell you the truth this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will never pass away.
Matt 24:32-34 NIV
The last days refer to the years from the resurrection to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
Jesus warned the religious leaders of what would happen if they didnt repent and they rejected him.
The Fig Tree represents Israel. It also represents trying to cover ones own sins. There is only one way to be cleansed of sin and that is through the shed blood of Christ. When Jesus cursed the Fig Tree he also cursed Israel because just as the tree bore no fruit neither did the Nation.
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Battle of Armageddon??? What battle is that?
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Armageddon is where they gathered, not where the battle took place. The Roman solders gathered to the north of Jerusalem (Valley of Megiddo) before they came and laid siege to Jerusalem.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.
The "great city" was Jerusalem. The "cities of the nations" were the surrounding cities which fell to Rome prior to the attack upon Jerusalem. Jerusalem was indeed divided in three parts as recorded by Josephus.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.
The stones from the Roman catapults weighed a talent and were white in color, hence they resembled hail. These "hailstones" where the last thing the Romans used before they breached the walls.
Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
The wicked Jews inside cursed God and didn't repent. Notice the world didn't end even though the 7th bowl was poured out before this?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
"Islands and mountains" are figurative terms for "safe places" or sanctuaries. There was no place to hide from the wrath of God came in the form of the invading Roman solders.
It is exactly as I described. Revelation is discussing the same major event as Jesus was discussing in His Olivet Discourse, that being the destruction of Israel in 70 AD. Everything that happened in 67-73 AD fits exactly what Christ and John describe.
So many people are intent on having a crystal ball that shows them the future, that they cannot even see that as a possibility.
Full-preterist car crash is ongoing. How many people have you convinced to this false teaching?
The rejection of the Messiah, the destruction of Israel, as a political entity, the enlightenment of the gentiles, and the restoration of Israel were prophesied by Isaiah, Hosea, Jeremiah, and Daniel long before Mat 24.
The return from Babylon did not satisfy the prophesy of the restoration of Israel. The airlift from 1949-1954 did.
I believe that the first seal was opened shortly after may 1948. I believe that the fifth seal has already been opened.
I believe that the rapture will occur after the sixth seal and before the seventh are opened.
I believe that Israel's suffering between 70 AD and 1948 was nothing compared with what will ensue after the seventh seal is opened.
If the tribulation of the first century were the great tribulation, then the thousand year reign of Jesus produced the mess we are living in.
If anything is ridiculous and laughable, I think that notion is a better candidate.
Nice post, I really like it, but I still have problems with this understanding.
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First, the general context of the 7 bowls/vials would be against Rome, the fourth beast.
The mark of the beast is the mark of Caesar and Rome, and the vials seem to be directed towards the beast, Rev 16:2, 6, 10, 13.
So it would seem that the 7th vial (air, v 17) would also include Rome
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The seat of the beast mentioned in Rev 16:10-11, is also seen in Rev 13:1-2.
This beast, the sea beast, is given the authority over Israel by sitting on Satan's throne.
This beast has 7 heads and 10 horns, and can only be the 4th beast, a city Rev 17:18, Rome.
So even though we agree that the city spoken of is Jerusalem, the question would still be when?
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Has the darkness spoken of in v 10 happened yet? (Spiritual)
You see that the seat of the beast was in God's light before the darkness fell.
But Rome was already "in the dark" without God's blessings, way before the dest of Jerusalem.
So we have to look and identify the time when Rome was blessed.
It would be After the time, when it wasn't the seat of the beast anymore, after the fall of the Empire.
So the time of the light is after the fall of Rome and the time of darkness when Rome has "returned".
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Has the Euphrates ever dried up? (People?)
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The beast is shown in Rev 13, as being wounded, and the earth beast, also Rome/Caesar, makes an image to the first beast.
All of this must take place before the last vial is poured out, if this is to be finished by 70 ad.
I mean, if this was written by John pre 70ad, say 64 ad (just a random date), that would only be 3 yrs before the surrounding.
So John would write the letters, from Patmos, they get to the churches 3 mos? I guess that would make sense.
2 1/2 years warning, maybe 2.
But all of the things that have to happen previous to the last vial being poured out, would only have 2- 2 1/2 years to take place before the 7th vial.
I mean, I see what you are saying, but the events of the first 6 vials, cannot be "crammed" into a 2-3 year period.
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The wrath of God is finished after the 7th vial Rev 15:1.
But who, is the wrath against, that it is completely finished?
Jerusalem? The Natural Branches? I mean I can see your point. But did God's withdrawing of blessings on Israel after the flesh END, with the dest? or has it been continued after 70 Ad?
But what about Rome? Did God's "wrath" end against Rome, when Jerusalem fell? Or did it continue to this day?
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I have some other problems with it too. But this is a start.
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No, there is no group, website, or anyone as far as I know.
As far as I know, only the people here on CC are aware of this. The ones I have discussed this with.
It's strange, it's like everyone has pieces that are right, but they don't quite fit together correctly. In the right time line.
Not enough. Clearly you haven't been convinced yet. Perhaps go back and read the Gospels with the notion that Christ was speaking of the near pending doom to befall the nation of Israel for her lack of belief in Him and perhaps your eyes will open. The flavor of the entire NT is "something big is about to happen" in their generation.
Marc,
There is no 2,000+ year gap taught anywhere in the NT for the events which were about to unfold. The judgment was imminent to them, in their generation. The end of the age was the end of their nation and the Law. The Law was replaced by an entirely new system and you're correct, no longer does God deal through a single nation but all Gentiles may have salvation which first came from the Jews, as Jesus stated. We are the new Jerusalem.
The Israel of today (and since 1948) is not found anywhere in the Bible. Can you find the Nazi holocaust of 6 million Jews? That would be a pretty big event, right? Where is it? Where is space travel, where are cars and planes found in the Bible or computers and the internet? You can't name one single major world event since the first century that is found in the Bible.
Enormous attention was given to the fall of Israel to the Babylonian, before, during and after, right. But you and others want to gloss over the final fall of Israel to the Romans just a mere 40 years after Christ taking the enormity of that event like it didn't happen, apply a 2,000+ year gap and make some future event out of it. This is your folly and where you all err. The destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in the first century whereby 93% of their population was destroyed in the most horrific means imaginable, with divine intervention during this battle perfectly aligns Josephus' account with Jesus' account of what was coming. Take the time to read the relevant portions of Josephus and you will see the Olivet Discourse (all of it) come to life in Josephus' account.
We are now, and have been, in the so-called Millennium. We are in the Kingdom right now reigning over earth. We have the new covenant through His blood. We are citizens of the new Jerusalem, of heaven, not of this earth. We live among dead people walking and it is our job to live apart from them but to be witnesses to them so that as many as possible can be saved before they die.
The rapture happened in the first century, it was a spiritual gathering of the dead saints with the living saints into the spiritual kingdom and temple, not made with hands, which Christ is our chief cornerstone. Now, according to Heb 9, it is appointed for all men to die, then judgment. No mention of rapture sparing billions from physical death. This is pure fantasy devised by Darby, Tim LaHaye, etc. Paul told Titus to have "blessed hope" of Christ's parousia. Paul told the Thessalonians of things they could expect. John wrote that Jesus was coming quickly. Jesus said all eyes would see, including those who pierced Him. Those who pierced Him were still alive in 70 AD, they are all dead now. Jesus promised judgment to that wicked and perverse generation (His generation).
2,000 years of history supports my version and makes your view laughable. How many more thousands of years need to pass? We come to Christ, we become new creations in salvation. We die, we go straight to heaven, with no waiting in Hades. This was the big change that happened in the first century and it has been going on ever since.
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a-f,
You are combining the two beasts of Rev 13 with the beast of Rev 16-18, which in a way is fine as some of this applies to Rome too. In Rev 13 John describes two beasts (the 7-headed beast from the sea and the beast from the earth). There is no harlot riding either beast in Rev 13. First understand the symbolism of these beasts.
The Beast of the Sea: This would be a frightening image to those of the 1st century and you are correct, this beast is Rome. Daniel calls this beast "terrible" far worse than his other 3 beasts. The symbolism for the sea beast comes from Psm 104:25-26, Psm 74:13-14, and Isa 27:1. In Isa 27:1, this beast is called, "Leviathan, .. the twisted serpent of the sea" who plays among the ships (Psm 104:25-26). Job 41:33 states, "there is nothing like him." John echoes this sentiment, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" In Christ's and John's day, no empire was bigger, stronger or more terrible than Rome.
Scarlet Beast carrying the Harlot: In Rev 17, our beast image has evolved. It now carries a harlot, which is 1st century Jerusalem/apostate Israel. The beast is scarlet (which represents sin) and the woman riding it is dressed in purple (priestly colors) and scarlet (also sin). The woman is marked, ON HER HEAD, calling her the "Mother of all Harlots." In Bible speak, harlotry means idolatry. Therefore 1st century Jerusalem/Apostate Israel was living in an adulterous relationship with Rome. The Jewish priests and religious leaders swore their allegiance to Caesar over their Messiah.
John 19:15: But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”
That highlighted phrase says it all. Can you think of anything worse? Can there possibly be a greater sin than to deny the Son of God and declare a Roman Caesar as your king? This verse, along with the below from Lk 19 is the crux of this entire debate.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
It was because THEY DID NOT KNOW THEIR MESSIAH (even though Daniel gave them the exact calculation to know), and because they rejected and killed Him and instead worshiped Caesar, even offering daily sacrifices to him in the temple, is the reason these apostate Jews, their temple, their city and country were wiped off the map. This was why their covenant was broken. This was the reason they were destroyed. This was the reason God was so angry, "i.e., wrath of God." The 66-73 AD events was their punishment which was AKA, "the Great Tribulation." There is nothing going on today in our world that even comes close to their unpardonable sins.
John the Baptist identifies who God's wrath was against in Mt 3:7 and Lk 3:7. Paul confirms it in 1 Thes 2:16. Jesus goes one step further and leaves no doubt in Mt 23, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...twice as much a son of hell as yourselves...Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell!!!! (emphasis mine). Jesus even calls them "serpents" which is what the sea beast (Leviathan) was.
So, who or what was the Land Beast (Beast from the Earth) in Rev 13 having two horns like a Lamb but spoke like Satan commanding the people to not worship Jesus but instead serve Rome? Who killed the prophets and saints? These two beasts (sea and land) are found together beginning in Job 40:15 and running to Job 41:34. It's all poetic imagery that John borrows for his beasts of Revelation.
You are combining the two beasts of Rev 13 with the beast of Rev 16-18, which in a way is fine as some of this applies to Rome too. In Rev 13 John describes two beasts (the 7-headed beast from the sea and the beast from the earth). There is no harlot riding either beast in Rev 13. First understand the symbolism of these beasts.
The Beast of the Sea: This would be a frightening image to those of the 1st century and you are correct, this beast is Rome. Daniel calls this beast "terrible" far worse than his other 3 beasts. The symbolism for the sea beast comes from Psm 104:25-26, Psm 74:13-14, and Isa 27:1. In Isa 27:1, this beast is called, "Leviathan, .. the twisted serpent of the sea" who plays among the ships (Psm 104:25-26). Job 41:33 states, "there is nothing like him." John echoes this sentiment, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" In Christ's and John's day, no empire was bigger, stronger or more terrible than Rome.
Scarlet Beast carrying the Harlot: In Rev 17, our beast image has evolved. It now carries a harlot, which is 1st century Jerusalem/apostate Israel. The beast is scarlet (which represents sin) and the woman riding it is dressed in purple (priestly colors) and scarlet (also sin). The woman is marked, ON HER HEAD, calling her the "Mother of all Harlots." In Bible speak, harlotry means idolatry. Therefore 1st century Jerusalem/Apostate Israel was living in an adulterous relationship with Rome. The Jewish priests and religious leaders swore their allegiance to Caesar over their Messiah.
John 19:15: But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”
That highlighted phrase says it all. Can you think of anything worse? Can there possibly be a greater sin than to deny the Son of God and declare a Roman Caesar as your king? This verse, along with the below from Lk 19 is the crux of this entire debate.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
It was because THEY DID NOT KNOW THEIR MESSIAH (even though Daniel gave them the exact calculation to know), and because they rejected and killed Him and instead worshiped Caesar, even offering daily sacrifices to him in the temple, is the reason these apostate Jews, their temple, their city and country were wiped off the map. This was why their covenant was broken. This was the reason they were destroyed. This was the reason God was so angry, "i.e., wrath of God." The 66-73 AD events was their punishment which was AKA, "the Great Tribulation." There is nothing going on today in our world that even comes close to their unpardonable sins.
John the Baptist identifies who God's wrath was against in Mt 3:7 and Lk 3:7. Paul confirms it in 1 Thes 2:16. Jesus goes one step further and leaves no doubt in Mt 23, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...twice as much a son of hell as yourselves...Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell!!!! (emphasis mine). Jesus even calls them "serpents" which is what the sea beast (Leviathan) was.
So, who or what was the Land Beast (Beast from the Earth) in Rev 13 having two horns like a Lamb but spoke like Satan commanding the people to not worship Jesus but instead serve Rome? Who killed the prophets and saints? These two beasts (sea and land) are found together beginning in Job 40:15 and running to Job 41:34. It's all poetic imagery that John borrows for his beasts of Revelation.
The harlot is the second beast, the earth beast.
The iron legs/toes of the statue in Dan. 2, and the 4th beast of Dan. 7.
Is revealed further, in more detail.
She is false religion, man is god, worship the creation, there is no god, Satan is God, Caesar is god.
Jerusalem is not the mother of ALL harlots, The tower of Babel is, Babylon.
After the cleansing of the flood of Noah, creation worship, sun, moon, etc., began at the tower again. The harlot has her origins there, Jerusalem was not a city until centuries after that.
The false religion of the day was Caesar worship.
The woman is sitting on the Roman iron beast, a city of 7 hills.
But where is this city located? Rev 17:3 says the the city is located "in the wilderness", that implies the the city, is located in the wilderness of the gentiles.
If it was Jerusalem, it would be considered "home" to Israel and would not be located in the wilderness of the gentiles.
True.
Serpents, snakes.
He is a religious goat.
The first beast is Rome.
The second beast is also Rome, they are the same entity, but one is civil Rome, and one is the religion of Rome, and Caesar is the head of that.
These are all Rome, the iron, the 4th beast, the sea beast, the earth beast, the scarlet beast, the harlot, the dragon (when with 7 heads and 10 horns), all the 8 heads, and the 10 horns.
Rome, the 4th beast, killed everyone from the beginning of the iron until the end of the iron, primarily.
Rome cannot be named, due to the penalty of death for speaking/writing/possessing letters that are anti Caesar/Rome.
If the Rev was against Jerusalem, and it said that Rome was going to conquer Israel and Jerusalem, the Romans would love it. You could certainly write that Rome would have victory at Jerusalem and be endorsed as a great prophet by Rome.
But you couldn't say Rome was going to fall, and Israel would have victory over Rome.
This is where your errors compound from AB baby - the mother of harlots in John's revelation IS/WAS apostate Jerusalem - there are only two cities in his work.
Earthly Jerusalem that was cast off and destroyed - the great city references all apply to Jerusalem of the 1st century - there is no shift to another city in John's revelation.
Heavenly Jerusalem that we "inhabit" NOW.
John starts off with 1st century Jerusalem as the "great city" in Rev 11:8 and does not change the identity thereafter - not one mention of a change of identity in any of these "great city" verses:
Brother tanakh,
Please consider this,
That Israel did bear some fruit, from Pentecost until the rejection of the gospel and the gentiles were brought in, a number of years.
And the fig tree, in Matt 24, seems to begin producing summer leaves, so it would seem that the fig tree was just beginning it's production period, instead of at the ripe fruit time, not having any fruit.
Also seen in Rev 6:13, the fig tree casts her"untimely figs", which means that Israel did produce fruit, but not as it was supposed to, the wind broke the figs off before ripening.
So if Israel is the fig tree wild and natural branches, it would show that the kingdom, in relation to the natural branches, was not to the fullest extent that it should have been at the time of the dest of Jeru.
Producing fruit, but not to the fullness of perfection and production possible, on the natural branches.
The harlot is in the wilderness Rev 17:3, sitting on a beast in the wilderness. The beast is a city in the wilderness.
If this was Jerusalem, the city would not be in the wilderness of the gentile nations, but Rome is.
The harlot is older than Jerusalem, tracing the false god, creation worship back to the tower of Babel, Babylon.
Israel has been referenced as the mother of harlots, but this is the mother of ALL harlots.
Yes, but there is the heavenly Jerusalem that comes after physical death also (after 70 ad).
John starts off with 1st century Jerusalem as the "great city" in Rev 11:8 and does not change the identity thereafter - not one mention of a change of identity in any of these "great city" verses:
It looks good until you get into the details and the context of the passages.
Jerusalem was also in the "wilderness" (and still is) due to her apostasy AB, for killing the prophets and various other indictments, so this argument of yours holds no water.
The harlot mother is not Babylon as in the tower of babel, John is specifically equating apostate Israel with Babylon, Sodom and Egypt, because they had become all three (and still is).
it looks good and it is good - I haven't seen anyone successfully argue against it...
