Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#46,261
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#46,261
BillG said:
This concept I struggle with and always have.
Are we always pleasing to God.
Does that differ from God always being pleased with us?

I struggle with the fact that I may be pleasing to God.
Click to expand...
Join the club bro!

It appears the context of this "pleasing" is in salvation, or a lack thereof. There are also NT Scriptures in the epistles that deal with pleasing God for those saved. It has, of course, nothing to do with sonship, but obedience. I could be wrong, but that appears to be a distinguishing factor.
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#46,262
Feb 15, 2017
9,025
4,444
113
#46,262
preacher4truth said:
Join the club bro!

It appears the context of this "pleasing" is in salvation, or a lack thereof. There are also NT Scriptures in the epistles that deal with pleasing God for those saved. It has, of course, nothing to do with sonship, but obedience. I could be wrong, but that appears to be a distinguishing factor.
Click to expand...
Interesting, not sure I will ever get my head round it. So are we always pleasing to God because we are his children but he is pleased when we are obedient?
If so that means he is upset with us when we are not obedient.

Mind you this guy here spent most of his Christan life believing that God only loved me because he had to on account of Jesus.

It was only when I read the following that the Holy Spirit really worked.
It was like he shot a bullet into my heart with the following written on it.


John 17:23
23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.


I had read that verse before but due some reason on a particular day I suddenly realised that he actually does love me.

Which then led to the issues with being pleased:D

Oh hum
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#46,263
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#46,263
BillG said:
This concept I struggle with and always have.
Are we always pleasing to God.
Does that differ from God always being pleased with us?

I struggle with the fact that I may be pleasing to God.
Click to expand...
Isnt this resolved though by Father placing us all in His Son who pleased Him in all things? It's a fixed position Bill, that doesn't change according to His Word, as I understand.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#46,264
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#46,264
BillG said:
Interesting, not sure I will ever get my head round it. So are we always pleasing to God because we are his children but he is pleased when we are obedient?
If so that means he is upset with us when we are not obedient.

Mind you this guy here spent most of his Christan life believing that God only loved me because he had to on account of Jesus.

It was only when I read the following that the Holy Spirit really worked.
It was like he shot a bullet into my heart with the following written on it.


John 17:23
23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.


I had read that verse before but due some reason on a particular day I suddenly realised that he actually does love me.

Which then led to the issues with being pleased:D

Oh hum
Click to expand...

Guys! Blood is on the mercy seat before Father and has that Voice that speaks mercy to the World. How much more to His own!
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#46,265
Feb 15, 2017
9,025
4,444
113
#46,265
stonesoffire said:
Isnt this resolved though by Father placing us all in His Son who pleased Him in all things? It's a fixed position Bill, that doesn't change according to His Word, as I understand.
Click to expand...
Is this about being hidden in Christ?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,266
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,266
eternally-gratefull said:
If we look at Jews in Jesus day, Seems it brought a lot of pride, arrogance, and hate (directed at so called “unclean” people) because it gave them a false sense of security and they had to work so hard to get there.

it is also why they hated Jesus, and he said all their “hard work” amounted to nothing in the grand scheme of things, They were still spiritually unclean and needed a savior.

Sadly, we see it in many so called Christian churches also.
Click to expand...
Laboring for that which is not attainable through labor, attempting to keep that which is beyond the ability to keep and trying every door under the sun except that old creaky door made from the wood of a cross by or through faith............!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,267
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,267
eternally-gratefull said:
It does? I disagree, I see it as meaning the state of being self focused, and not God focused.

Thats why paul said when he sins, it is not him sinning, but the flesh. We still sin because our sin nature or “flesh nature” as some call it, has not been removed, It has been defeated, as in we no longer are bound to it, But it is still there. And we must learn to crucify it. Which is called becoming mature.

A baby christian is going to have to fight the flesh more than a mature or adult Christian. But as Paul said in romans 7, even he in this late stage of maturity still had times of falling to the flesh (sin)
Click to expand...
Take up your cross daily....die to flesh daily....I agree with your point....the contrast is between the two natures and a saved child of God still carries the old worn out bag-o-flesh around to contend with until death or transformation.....
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#46,268
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#46,268
BillG said:
Is this about being hidden in Christ?
Click to expand...
I can't answer that specifically because I don't know what you see being hidden in Him means to you.

What I can answer is that pleasing God according to scripture means to believe what He has provided for us and that is His Lamb. Pleasing God then from this foundation is then for rewards, not for eternal security. The reason would be that Jesus died for the ungodly, not for the good. Being all of us no matter how "good" our human nature presents itself for even that falls short of His glory.

I see the glory filling up the space so to speak, each time a selfish desire is put to death in us. Does this make sense? This in itself would be great reward. Greater light. More of Jesus's character.

Something i do see concerning you, is out of all of us here, you are the most sensitive towards others. Am sure that pleases God for criticism of others is not His way. :)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,269
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,269
stonesoffire said:
We don't crucify the flesh. We reckon it dead. You are making the same mistake I did for years EG.
Click to expand...
What does it mean to take up a cross daily and what happened on the cross?

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,270
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,270
eternally-gratefull said:
I see what your saying and agree, we should consider it dead, But as jesus said, we must still take up our cross. That is called crucifying the flesh, or crucify self, give up our rights, and love and serve others.

Which is what jesus did, when he took up his cross.
Click to expand...
Amen and he said to do it........DAILY!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,271
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,271
BillG said:
Interesting, not sure I will ever get my head round it. So are we always pleasing to God because we are his children but he is pleased when we are obedient?
If so that means he is upset with us when we are not obedient.

Mind you this guy here spent most of his Christan life believing that God only loved me because he had to on account of Jesus.

It was only when I read the following that the Holy Spirit really worked.
It was like he shot a bullet into my heart with the following written on it.


John 17:23
23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.


I had read that verse before but due some reason on a particular day I suddenly realised that he actually does love me.

Which then led to the issues with being pleased:D

Oh hum
Click to expand...
I am fairly confident that God does not whip (chastise) a child he is pleased with.......
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#46,272
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#46,272
BillG said:
Interesting, not sure I will ever get my head round it. So are we always pleasing to God because we are his children but he is pleased when we are obedient?
Click to expand...
Well, like I said, would have to study this out because I could be wrong. Each individual text and context would have to be handled and interpreted. I think you should do it, then put your dissertation of the topic on here! :D
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,273
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,273
preacher4truth said:
I know you do. The context is the lost, not the saved. People use this as an excuse of their sin, but nothing there supports this as a believer. Not saying you're making this excuse, so don't flip out, I know what you're trying to say but it does not fly.

That is the argument Paul is bringing, he is showing the difference between the lost and the saved. Your view is fairly new to the scene and isn't a view in church history, nor does the context of Romans support it.

What you're making the passage say is that you can make yourself pleasing to God by not being according to the flesh. And that if you decide, when you feel like it, to be after the spirit, then you make God happy. That rejects the fact we are always pleasing to God because of Christ, not self.
Click to expand...
Other than the workers for and sinless perfectionists ypu are the only one I have ever heard say the above......not mouthing or saying your wrong or nuts, but I know a lot of well versed pastors, preachers, seminary instructors and Greek teachers that would disagree....no matter how one views it...it is a fact that we have a sinless, born again spirit housed in a fallen body of flesh and the two are contrary one to the other and battle for control..........just saying
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#46,274
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#46,274
dcontroversal said:
What does it mean to take up a cross daily and what happened on the cross?

And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Click to expand...
oh, boy. I'm about to say something but can't help it. May the ceiling not drop down and smack me. :)

This was said before He finished the work of His death. Then He ressurects and brings eternal life to mankind, and ascends to Father. Sends His Spirit back.

When we are born again, we are pierced within the darkness of our spirit with Light. The truth of the gospel message. Our human nature or our flesh is cut...circumcised, and we are a new creation. But, our minds haven't received the full knowledge of what has happened.

Truth is we died with Him and are resurrected too. So we reckon or believe this on a daily basis.

Disciples? No, more than this. Children, and greatly loved, of God.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#46,275
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#46,275
stonesoffire said:
oh, boy. I'm about to say something but can't help it. May the ceiling not drop down and smack me. :)

This was said before He finished the work of His death. Then He ressurects and brings eternal life to mankind, and ascends to Father. Sends His Spirit back.

When we are born again, we are pierced within the darkness of our spirit with Light. The truth of the gospel message. Our human nature or our flesh is cut...circumcised, and we are a new creation. But, our minds haven't received the full knowledge of what has happened.

Truth is we died with Him and are resurrected too. So we reckon or believe this on a daily basis.

Disciples? No, more than this. Children, and greatly loved, of God.
Click to expand...
So....the all the words of Jesus are only applicable during his ministry and now have no bearing even though he was teaching born again, saved immersed disciples identified as a new testemant church at least twice?
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
#46,276
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#46,276
dcontroversal said:
So....the all the words of Jesus are only applicable during his ministry and now have no bearing even though he was teaching born again, saved immersed disciples identified as a new testemant church at least twice?
Click to expand...
One ministry ended which was to the Jews only and had to do with law. The New being a spiritual body of believers. Hasvto do with grace. A new Genesis Dcon. The new creation man.

And I didn't say anything about disregarding any words.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#46,277
#46,277
preacher4truth said:
I know you do. The context is the lost, not the saved. People use this as an excuse of their sin, but nothing there supports this as a believer. Not saying you're making this excuse, so don't flip out, I know what you're trying to say but it does not fly.

That is the argument Paul is bringing, he is showing the difference between the lost and the saved. Your view is fairly new to the scene and isn't a view in church history, nor does the context of Romans support it.

What you're making the passage say is that you can make yourself pleasing to God by not being according to the flesh. And that if you decide, when you feel like it, to be after the spirit, then you make God happy. That rejects the fact we are always pleasing to God because of Christ, not self.
Click to expand...
Again I disagree, Paul is talking about t6he struggle all believers have, a non believer can not have a struggle with the spirit. He does not have the spirit, his spirit is dead.

And no,. I not propose that what I propose is that when we follow the spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If we could not fulfill the lust of the flesh then Paul would not have warned us about it.

What I propose is that if we follow the spirit. We will be BLESSED in all we do. If we follow the flesh, we will suffer loss, Have to be chastened, and need to refocus our minds on God (the spirit)
 
BillG

BillG

Senior Member
#46,279
Feb 15, 2017
9,025
4,444
113
#46,279
stonesoffire said:
I can't answer that specifically because I don't know what you see being hidden in Him means to you.

What I can answer is that pleasing God according to scripture means to believe what He has provided for us and that is His Lamb. Pleasing God then from this foundation is then for rewards, not for eternal security. The reason would be that Jesus died for the ungodly, not for the good. Being all of us no matter how "good" our human nature presents itself for even that falls short of His glory.

I see the glory filling up the space so to speak, each time a selfish desire is put to death in us. Does this make sense? This in itself would be great reward. Greater light. More of Jesus's character.

Something i do see concerning you, is out of all of us here, you are the most sensitive towards others. Am sure that pleases God for criticism of others is not His way. :)
Click to expand...
To be honest I have no idea what it means to be hidden in Christ. I have looked at it many times yet it does not sink in.


Just like Romans 7 (DC has probably got his head in his hands at this point. He has tried to explain it to me a few times)

I kind of get what your saying.

Thank you for your kind words at the end.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#46,280
#46,280
preacher4truth said:
Join the club bro!

It appears the context of this "pleasing" is in salvation, or a lack thereof. There are also NT Scriptures in the epistles that deal with pleasing God for those saved. It has, of course, nothing to do with sonship, but obedience. I could be wrong, but that appears to be a distinguishing factor.
Click to expand...
Not sure what this has to do with paul having a battle in his soul between the spirit and the flesh

Again, A non believer has no spirit to war with, He also has really no desire to love others, nor the capability, thus he can not do any good.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.