predestination?

[SovereignGrace]

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Foreknew in the Greek is a verb, meaning its something God does. He foreknows, in that He ordained those who He predestined.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That sounds like "fatalistic determination" predestination.

Zacky. We're falsely accused of this.

 

[trofimus]

You will not find this anywhere in God's holy writ. It wasn't like God thought up a bunch of differing scenarios and chose the universe we have now.

Well, its a theological view, so its not said clearly in Scriptures. Its a scheme how to make Scriptures, nature and logic to work together.

But some points that are in Scriptures:
1) God does whatever He pleases.
2) God has free will.
3) God chooses what He wants to do, freely.

Therefore, its quite logical that when God created the Universe, He knew what He is creating, specifically, in every detail. If it would be evil or bad, He would not create such Universe. So this universe has to have the perfect properties to be according to God's wishes. Or else, it would not exist.

I can also agree with this, with one caveat...God did not have a bunch of universes in mind, and this was the best possible scenario, so He created it. You can not support this with the bible.

Same like before. God had/has/is having all in his mind. And does what He likes and wants.

You're teetering on the Son being less than God. God is eternal. Jesus is eternal, seeing He is God. Eternal means w/o beginning. If He was born of His Father, then He has a beginning. This is some weird thinking, if I am understanding you correctly.

Its a problem with time and our comprehension. Son is from Father and the Holy Spirit is from both (or only from Father, as orthodox believe), but is co-eternal with Father. Its hard to understand. C.S.Lewis illustrates it to two books, one laying on the another. But it was always so. There was no time when the second book did not exist or when these books were in a different state.

Please expound upon your thought expressed here. Thanks.

I will use what I already posted somewhere else:

Every my action is predetermined, but God is not active in pushing me to evil.

As already Augustine declared, evil is a privation of being, whereas the action of God tends to the positive.

What does that mean? It means that everything that is created is falling to evil like everything you drop falls to the ground. Its God who makes the positive force by "holding it" in some level of good. His power is used in a positive way while the privation of us tends to evil.

So God actively makes you good (by His grace), but He can just "drop you" a little more and you are going to the evil way, like hurting somebody. This evil originates only in you, God will just let you do it, when it is needed for some higher good.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, its a theological view, so its not said clearly in Scriptures. Its a scheme how to make Scriptures, nature and logic to work together.

But some points that are in Scriptures:
1) God does whatever He pleases.
2) God has free will.
3) God chooses what He wants to do, freely.

Therefore, its quite logical that when God created the Universe, He knew what He is creating, specifically, in every detail. If it would be evil or bad, He would not create such Universe. So this universe has to have the perfect properties to be according to God's wishes. Or else, it would not exist.



Same like before. God had/has/is having all in his mind. And does what He likes and wants.



Its a problem with time and our comprehension. Son is from Father and the Holy Spirit is from both (or only from Father, as orthodox believe), but is co-eternal with Father. Its hard to understand. C.S.Lewis illustrates it to two books, one laying on the another. But it was always so. There was no time when the second book did not exist or when these books were in a different state.



I will use what I already posted somewhere else:

Every my action is predetermined, but God is not active in pushing me to evil.

As already Augustine declared, evil is a privation of being, whereas the action of God tends to the positive.

What does that mean? It means that everything that is created is falling to evil like everything you drop falls to the ground. Its God who makes the positive force by "holding it" in some level of good. His power is used in a positive way while the privation of us tends to evil.

So God actively makes you good (by His grace), but He can just "drop you" a little more and you are going to the evil way, like hurting somebody. This evil originates only in you, God will just let you do it, when it is needed for some higher good.

Thanks for the response. I think preacher4truth nailed it when He said God did not do research & development and then settle on creating this universe. There's nothing in the bible for anyone to derive this conclusion from.

 

[notuptome]

The OP complained that her bible teacher was mean. This is a tell tale sign of Calvinism. It lacks compassion and does not yield the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

This child came her for help and found the same icy hearts she was afraid of in her bible class. Shame, shame on those who neglect the innocence of those they are supposed to teach. God have mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[trofimus]

Thanks for the response. I think preacher4truth nailed it when He said God did not do research & development and then settle on creating this universe. There's nothing in the bible for anyone to derive this conclusion from.

I cant imagine God who creates blindly, without proper reasoning about what He is doing and choosing from alternatives.

Of course, it did not take any time, He knew it always. But its again only our time perception problem.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I cant imagine God who creates blindly, without proper reasoning about what He is doing and choosing from alternatives.

Of course, it did not take any time, He knew it always. But its again only our time perception problem.

None of us are saying God creates blindly. But I can't find biblical proof He did R & D before creating our universe either.

 

[trofimus]

None of us are saying God creates blindly. But I can't find biblical proof He did R & D before creating our universe either.

I said He had to do research (i.e. to gain a knowledge He did not have yet)? If so, it was not a good word.

He created the best world from all possible worlds. He did not have to do any research, He knows everything instantly.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I was wondering why no one had posted that scripture yet.

And we are HIS workmanship created IN CHRIST unto good works that was before ordained that we should walk In them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I said He had to do research (i.e. to gain a knowledge He did not have yet)? If so, it was not a good word.

He created the best world from all possible worlds. He did not have to do any research, He knows everything instantly.

Again, this saying He found the best possible world to create out of other possible worlds is not founded upon scripture. That's what I am challenging. All we know and have, is "In the beginning, God,". We don't know anything about God prior to this. Yet, you're averring He looked at endless possible world scenarios and settled on this universe. Its not provable. So, why take an unsupportable stance?

 

[MarcR]

Ppl's wills are driven by their nature. Ppl choose that which is most pleasing unto them.

Then there's Romans 9:16 that states its not the man who wills, but God, who gives mercy.

I was not trying to suggest that man's will overrides God's sovereignty. I was only pointing out that mankind was created with the attribute of will at God's determination for His purpose; because it seems that many people try to dismiss that..

 

[trofimus]

Again, this saying He found the best possible world to create out of other possible worlds is not founded upon scripture. That's what I am challenging. All we know and have, is "In the beginning, God,". We don't know anything about God prior to this. Yet, you're averring He looked at endless possible world scenarios and settled on this universe. Its not provable. So, why take an unsupportable stance?

Because I see no other alternative. Bible does not say everything about everything.

God created this world, its a fact. And now we can discuss why. Is it a random shot? Is it possible to create a better world? Or is it the best possible world?

I do not see first possibilities as godly ones. I do not also see how is the godly one unsupportable.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was not trying to suggest that man's will overrides God's sovereignty. I was only pointing out that mankind was created with the attribute of will at God's determination for His purpose; because it seems that many people try to dismiss that..

Ppl freely choose what they want. However, lost man does not want God. They can't will themselves saved, seeing they do not want Him. Its only after God quickens a man, He changes their 'wanter' and they freely choose Him.

 

[preacher4truth]

I cant imagine God who creates blindly, without proper reasoning about what He is doing and choosing from alternatives.

Of course, it did not take any time, He knew it always. But its again only our time perception problem.

God is way above those thoughts. Your scenario suggests God must learn, open his eyes, think of multitudes of plans, go back to the drawing board. Kind of like the invention of the light bulb by Thomas Edison. I'd suggest reading more on his attributes than reading a philosophical view of what man thinks may have happened. It is better to be grounded in the truths of his nature than to be spoiled by philosophical reasonings of man. The above scenario in all reality mitigates the nature, character and attributes of God. He is then brought down to man's level, then it is celebrated as good.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Because I see no other alternative. Bible does not say everything about everything.

God created this world, its a fact. And now we can discuss why. Is it a random shot? Is it possible to create a better world? Or is it the best possible world?

I do not see first possibilities as godly ones. I do not also see how is the godly one unsupportable.

All we have is "In the beginning, God,". We do not know that God ran through many different scenarios and settled on this. This is nothing more than conjecture. We cant based a doctrine on conjecture, its an unsustainable path.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

the more I learn about Calvinism...well at least the way it is expressed in the wild wild Bible Demolition Franchise...the more I see it as equivalent to a pacifier

safe zone where it does not matter if you understand one real biblical doctrine

you are still good to go because you have no choice

salvation is not your concern because you were born saved

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The OP complained that her bible teacher was mean. This is a tell tale sign of Calvinism. It lacks compassion and does not yield the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

This child came her for help and found the same icy hearts she was afraid of in her bible class. Shame, shame on those who neglect the innocence of those they are supposed to teach. God have mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you called it

as usual, complete breakdown of the original op and a fight breaks out

you get a rep for this one

 

[trofimus]

All we have is "In the beginning, God,". We do not know that God ran through many different scenarios and settled on this. This is nothing more than conjecture. We cant based a doctrine on conjecture, its an unsustainable path.

That we have brains is not in the Bible, either. We learned that by medical experiences.

Bible is not the only source about our reality.

 

[trofimus]

God is way above those thoughts. Your scenario suggests God must learn, open his eyes, think of multitudes of plans, go back to the drawing board. Kind of like the invention of the light bulb by Thomas Edison. I'd suggest reading more on his attributes than reading a philosophical view of what man thinks may have happened. It is better to be grounded in the truths of his nature than to be spoiled by philosophical reasonings of man. The above scenario in all reality mitigates the nature, character and attributes of God. He is then brought down to man's level, then it is celebrated as good.

I stressed that God did not have to learn anything, thats only our human time perception.

God always knew all possibilities and always knew which one is the best and this best one He created.

Tell me, do you believe that some better Universe can be created? If not, He created the best one and rejected the rest.

Or, you can believe in undending multiverse, where God creates all possible universes, good ones, evil ones... but this would have serious theological implications about redemption.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That we have brains is not in the Bible, either. We learned that by medical experiences.

Bible is not the only source about our reality.

Sounds like you're not sola scriptura.