Not By Works

[Mercy4u]

What I say is salvation without works is not salvation.

If one believes that, One has not produced any fruit/works yet. One has to get past the milk before they can digest the meat.

And it is understanding and applying the meat of the word that produces fruit.

If one is stuck on salvation and does not understand that they are eternally secure in Christ, fruit,true fruit/works CANNOT be produced by the believer.


Faith(which is His mind and His doctrines and APPLYING His truths in our lives) is dead without works(divine good/right motivation.) Salvation is not dead, faith is dead. A person who does not have their salvation solidified and concreted in their mind does not have the mind of Christ. Their faith(doctrine in the soul/His Mind) is dead.

 

[Mercy4u]

Faith/trust/believing/verb in The Lord Jesus Christ And His work's SAVES.

Faith/doctrine/His mind/ noun that doesn't grow in His Grace and Knowledge after salvation is dead. Salvation is not dead. Our thinking and applying His mind/faith is dead.

Salvation is safe and secure( John 10:28.) But our rewards and The ability to Glorify Him depends on our obedience to Him.

We are not being obedient to Him if we think His gift to us 'may' not stand.

 

[Ralph-]

I never said that authentic faith in Christ is barren of works.

I know that you never said that. What I'm hoping is you can see the obvious implication of this truth which is you can't be saved without works since works and salvation are ultimately so inextricably woven together. But so many people are sure they are saved even if they have no works since the forgiveness of sin is given completely separate from any work or effort of right living to earn it. Which is true but says nothing toward the fact that saving faith is the faith that works.

Works may have no affect on salvation but salvation most certainly will affect your works. You can't seperate the two.

...good works are...not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

This truth is so well rooted and understood in the church today that it's become a non issue among us believers. Self proclaimed unbelievers who don't even pretend to be Christians are the ones who think the way to salvation is by being good.

What we the church need to hear are sermons that motivate us to be careful to devote ourselves to putting our saving faith to work for at least four reasons. One so we can live in the joy of our salvation. Two so we can have reward in heaven. Three so we can know that we really are justified by faith in Christ. And four so we can live holy and responsible lives that witness the life changing grace of God to others.

 

[Magenta]

I know that you never said that. What I'm hoping is you can see the obvious implication of this truth which is you can't be saved without works since works and salvation are ultimately so inextricably woven together. But so many people are sure they are saved even if they have no works since the forgiveness of sin is given completely separate from any work or effort of right living to earn it. Which is true but says nothing toward the fact that saving faith is the faith that works.

Works may have no affect on salvation but salvation most certainly will affect your works. You can't seperate the two.

Scripture states otherwise.

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him
who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness,

 

[Ralph-]

Scripture states otherwise.

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him
who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness,

You either haven't read my posts or you do not understand them.

I said this to mailmandan...

You can not separate works from salvation. What you can do is separate works from justification, but you can not separate works from salvation. As you yourself say, there is no such thing as a saved person who has no righteous works.

 

[Magenta]

You either haven't read my posts or you do not understand them.

I understand you said salvation and works cannot be separated when clearly according to Scripture they can be.

 

[Ralph-]

The whole problem with this subject is we the church understand justification by faith so well that we understand it to a fault. We use this truth that we understand so well to think there are no reasons why we have to have works of right living.

I spelled out at least four reasons why we do have to have works of right living. The most important one being so we can know we really have been justified in Christ, for as we all sometimes agree on the faith that saves is the faith that changes who you are. That's why our righteous living confirms our calling and election in Christ. If your claim to faith isn't leading you into a righteous life then you may not have the faith that justifies apart from works. Paul says prove it by doing right things.

 

[FlSnookman7]

No, I do not teach that.

What I say is salvation without works is not salvation. You can not separate works from salvation. What you can do is separate works from justification, but you can not separate works from salvation. As you yourself say, there is no such thing as a saved person who has no righteous works. This idiocy of claiming you can be saved without works must stop.

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He was saved and had no good works to show for it...

 

[Pipp]

Works is a result of Salvation...not the other way around.

 

[maxwel]

Works is a result of Salvation...not the other way around.

If your works are baking pies... you may be worthy of a special dispensation.

 

[Ralph-]

I understand you said salvation and works cannot be separated when clearly according to Scripture they can be.

I know your thinking. A lot of Christians think this way. They think that since I got justified the instant I believed without doing anything then what I do or don't do has nothing to do with my salvation. Which is not true since what you do shows if you really got justified. The faith that justifies all by itself apart from what you do changes you into a new creation who then starts to live righteously. If that's not happening you may not have been justified by faith apart from works. Works are how we know if we really have been justified through the forgiveness of sin all by itself.

 

[FlSnookman7]

Well.....it's 2 am here and I am at work so if this is a little off please forgive me.

I am finding that in my life there seems to be something happening that I neither control nor am aware of as it occurs. I am becoming nicer. That may sound insignificant but for a very long time I was a very mean person. Yet the other day as I was waiting on the bus a small child ran up and hugged me out of the blue. As I am about 6 foot 2 and still not very friendly looking his mother was concerned, but after a quick smile we all had a pleasant conversation as we waited. Again, I know most of you will think "so what?' but that sort of thing never happened to me in the past.

Another thing happened recently where some people I really loved and trusted went out of their way to hurt me. At first I was angry but very soon I was filled with pity for them and moved to pray for them. I still love them though I doubt I will ever trust them again. That probably sounds normal to many of you but for 30 or so years I would have been consumed with plotting my revenge.

Works are great but for me the real "proof" of my salvation is God working on my heart. He changed and continues to change me. I pray and speak to Him often and when moved I pray with others or help out strangers but it is more by just being in a good mood and practicing patience that I reflect the love He has shown me. No works I could ever do would even be comparable to the work He has done in me. Thank you Jesus.

 

[Ralph-]

Works is a result of Salvation...not the other way around.

Not only that but works are the necessary result of salvation. Because ultimately if you aren't being changed by what you believe about Christ then you may not be saved at all.

 

[maxwel]

I was going make a serious post on this topic,
but since this thread is already over 2,000 pages,
I can't imagine anything which hasn't already been said at least 50 times...

and ignored every time, lol.

 

[Magenta]

I know your thinking.

No you don't. You should prove your good works, like you just finished saying we should, by apologizing to me, but you would rather pretend you are right and I am wrong.

 

[Ralph-]

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He was saved and had no good works to show for it...

The thief on the cross cries on Jesus' shoulder every time somebody uses his unique circumstances as the excuse to have no change of life and still be considered a saved person.

Salvation occurs the second you believe in and receive Christ's forgiveness for sin. We can tell if we have done that by how we live. If our 'faith' is not leading us into righteous living then we need to take a serous look at whether or not we truly have received God's gracious gift of life through faith in his forgiveness.

Ultimately, to say you have the life changing life of Christ in you through you faith in Christ, but have no change of life is to deny by your actions that you have that life.

 

[Magenta]

Not only that, but you are rejecting what Scripture plainly states, which is contrary to what you said, but you will probably not acknowledge that either.

 

[Magenta]

The thief on the cross cries on Jesus' shoulder every time somebody uses his unique circumstances as the excuse to have no change of life and still be considered a saved person.

What a load.

 

[Ralph-]

No you don't. You should prove your good works, like you just finished saying we should, by apologizing to me, but you would rather pretend you are right and I am wrong.

I'm not pretending.

If you think that ultimately a saved person can have no works and be a saved person then you are wrong. The faith that justifies apart from works changes a person into a new creation who grows up into righteous living. If that isn't happening then that person may not have been justified in Christ at all.

Works are the evidence of justification through Christ. No evidence of justification may well mean exactly that. No justification has occurred. That's why we're encouraged to prove our calling and election, so we can know for sure. The person who does not work can not know for sure he has received God's gracious gift of the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Magenta]

I'm not pretending.

I realize you are convinced you are right even though Scripture proves you wrong.