Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

The point is if you're not a changed person you don't belong to Christ. Whether you ever really believed to begin with or have lost your salvation is irrelevant. That doesn't change the truth that people who do not have a life of works do not have the grace of God in salvation in their lives. It doesn't matter if they never had it or lost it. They're still not saved either way. That is the important matter.

I wish people would stop clouding up this topic with once save always saved stuff. It always gets used as an excuse for not having any works. I'm not saying you're doing that. But there are many who do that around here.

People can cry once saved always saved all they want, but that don't change the fact that if they have no works, no changed nature in their salvation then they don't have salvation. There is no such thing as a saved person who doesn't have a new nature that is growing up into the image of Christ. Once saved always saved doesn't make it so a person can be unchanged and still be saved.

Blah blah blah....exactly what I see when you push your vanilla cafe blend of faith and works for...it is as false as the prophets of Baal that Elijah took care of.......The Corinthin brother committing fornication, those with works of wood, hay and stubble, the prodigal all prove your line of thinking false......ALL who have genuinely believed have done the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER and are ETERNALLY SAVED, JUSTIFIED, SANCTIFIED AND SEALED IN CHRIST.......

 

[dcontroversal]

To my brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus...I love you all...We may not be where we want to be, but lets thank GOD we are not where we used to be...Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! ...xox...

Keep swinging the sword Rose......and chin up as the spirit pours from your posts and it is obvious by your words you love God and the truth..........do not let the naysayers, workers for and salvation loosers get you down....it is all Jesus and his work...keep your eyes on him....!

 

[dcontroversal]

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME saved:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND doing God's will as believers AFTER we have been saved:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Amen....a truth that alludes him due to a complete lack of regard for context, verbiage, verb tense etc......

 

[dcontroversal]

I ejoyed this post, it Scriptualy based, but to simplify:


James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."


James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"


James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."


What I don;t get is why anyone says obedience is required so many pople freak out, seems like they have been taght a different gospel than what Yahshua/Jesus taught:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]





John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

What you do not seem to get because of the forest of law is.....WE CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS <----BEFORE GOD

and that JAMES IS SPEAKING of the above justifying faith being seen of MEN by works that can only come AFTER ONE HAS BEEN SAVED AND JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE BEFORE GOD!!!!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Saying obedience is REQUIRED is much different than saying Obedience is the OUTCOME.

If you say a working Diesel engine will do the work of pulling a heavy load. And a user You do not say pulling a heavy load is required. It is the end result of a working engine being used.

The same thing goes with a child of God.. You do not say the heavy work is required, the heavy work is the end result of a person who has faith in God.

Saying work is required is making work a requirment, which makes salvation not of grace through faith, but of belief plus works.

Exactly.....and not to mention those with works of wood, hay, stubble, the prodigal and the fornicating Corinthian brother......and lest we forget.....ONE (1) cup of cold water alone will not go unnoticed and or unrewarded by JESUS.....how many works does it require, what type of works are required? And....a believer has already worked the will of the Heavenly Father.......!

 

[Seohce]

Revelation 3:1-6 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[dcontroversal]

Honestly what I see is a constant reasoning that excuses the "believer" from obedience and accusing any who say obebience is required of "false teaching".

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?"[/FONT]


Mat 7:21-27, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’” Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”


John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

No....what you see is a cafe blend of faith and works of the law.....regardless of how you spin and twist it....Galatians 1 and 3 proves your error and you fail to acknowledge the simple truth that saving faith is void of one work to obtain eternal salvation other than the work of the Heavenly Father which is to believe............just like the Pharisees of old.....they could not get past the forest of laws to tree of grace

 

[Seohce]

21st Century King James Version Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, THE EVIDENCE of things not seen.

James 2:17-22 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works.” Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe — and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

 

[Seohce]

New International Version 1984 Matthew 12:33-37 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and BY YOUR WORDS you will be condemned.”

 

[Seohce]

Hebrews 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

 

[Seohce]

2 John 1:1-9 The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth— because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love. It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

 

[mailmandan]

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

“does not obey” is word #544 - apeitheó: to disobey, Original Word: ἀπειθέω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: apeitheó, Phonetic Spelling: (ap-i-theh'-o), Short Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, Definition: I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity.

G544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo (a-pei-the'-ō) v., 1. to disbelieve (willfully and perversely)., 2. (by direct extension) to be willfully disobedient., [from G545], KJV: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving , Root(s): G545

Like I said, in John 3:36 - "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life.." *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. *Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

So "obey the Son" here does not equate to salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. *In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel, yet I've heard works-salvationists define "obey the gospel" as obey by getting water baptized and accomplishing a check list of works in order to receive eternal life, which is a "different" gospel.

So to obey the Son here is to believe on the Son. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36, NASB). The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son."

Od because in Yahshua;s language there was not difference between faith and doing. If one had faith they did.

There is a difference between faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation and multiple acts of obedience (works) which "follow" and are produced "out of" faith. Faith is believing, trusting, relying and obedience which follows is works and we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not defined as multiple acts of obedience or a check list of works. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to *entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).*

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I also was confused about this and basically defined faith as obedience/works.

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith is a complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by saying this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water, baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father, suffering with Christ etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above.

Here is an example:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

You continue to confuse the essence of faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation with the fruit of faith (obedience/works).

we can dance around it all day to feel fuzzy, but truth is:

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

You can dance around John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 all day to feel fuzzy and mix "grace and law, faith and works" (with the end result being salvation by works) but the truth is "those who have done righteousness, to the resurrection of life," flows from a heart that is saved and "practicing evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment," flows equally from a heart that is unsaved, as we also in Romans 2:6-10.

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

This is what I mean by confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am fairly confident that the lawyers, Pharisees and workers for are as dense as lead.....this thread is not about obedience or bearing fruit or doing the work....it is about how the eternal salvation of God is OBTAINED.....the bible is clear.....it is by FAITH AND FAITH ALONE....NOT ONE PERSON can be obedient and or spiritually discern the word and will of God, much less bear fruit and or do one work that pleases God until they have been BORN FROM ABOVE ETERNALLY, SPIRITUALLY BY GOD of incorruptable SEED....you guys are a joke....you say that which is INCORRUPTABLE is corruptable, you state that which is ETERNAL is temporary, you state that which is by faith is by works, you state that which condemns and deems one guilty justifies and makes one righteous....and the biggie....YOU DEVALUE and DEBASE the work of Jesus on one's behalf while lifting yourself and what you do ABOVE CHRIST.....you guys peddle a cafe blend false gospel of a different kind with no power to save a flea, much less a man!

 

[Seohce]

2 Timothy 4:1-5 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

 

[Seohce]

Romans 16:17-20 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

 

[Seohce]

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

[Seohce]

Jude 1:19-25 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jude 1:19-25 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Doxology To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Funny you quote Jude while oblivious to the fact that the false teachers he is speaking of is compared to three men...Cain who pushed works, Baalam who did it for financial gain and Core who rejected and attempted to usurp Moses who was called of God.........what a joke!

 

[Seohce]

Romans 15:1-13 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: “The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me.” For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name.” Again, it says, “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.” And again, “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples.” And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him.” May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ralph-]

NOOOOOOO! It does not make works required. Why do you want to drown in legalism? Why can you not just admit, whoever has true faith is truly saved, and has ETERNAL LIFE, and is assured of heaven? And have the seal of the spirit as a pledge and thus have this hope which will sustain our faiht forever? (Security in christ, and not self) and THE RESULT of that salvation, and being loved by God will proceed works?

To be saved in Matthew 7 at Christ's return you have to not be lawless. That makes works required to be saved when Christ returns.

In Hebrews 6, to not be burned up in the end you have to have works. That makes works required to be saved when Christ returns.

In Matthew 18, if you did not do righteous things you will go to the left and into the lake of fire, not saved when Christ returns.

So how can you say that works are not required to be saved?

Of course they are required to be saved. They don't earn salvation. They are not required that way. They are required because they are what accompanies salvation according to Hebrews. They show you have salvation. You can not be saved with only faith, because as even you say, faith alone is not real faith. The faith that will save you when Jesus comes back is the faith that works. That makes works required for salvation. You have to have works when Jesus comes back or you will not be saved because it is unsaved people who don't have works.