Not By Works

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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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#47,321
eternally-gratefull said:
Whatever. If you think a person can have faith and never do a thing the person they CLAIM to have faith in, Then you have more issues than I can help you with.



Talk about someone who does not know scripture. You were born dead. Before you commited one sin. If you are never born again, you will die in that same death no matter how many sins you commited.

We are not condemned because we sinned, Jesus said we are condemned because we did not believe.

Your argument is with God.
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How can one say our entrance is gained on works after faith when the bible clearly states it is faith without works that saves eternally....seems to me that the ones who place emphasis upon works are the ones who cannot read or are blind....Plenteous will be the number that boasts of works as their proof and ticket to enter......same garbage being pushed by a few in this thread.....They will not quite make the cut........
 
star

star

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#47,322
Ralph- said:
Works of righteous obedience are the evidence of salvation.

Unbelievers will indeed by judged for the unrighteous things they have done. The wages of sin is death. They earn those wages.
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You are looking outward. God looks inward. Evidence of salvation is a new heart/soul sealed by the Holy Spirit at the moment of confession and acceptance of that free gift of salvation. John 3:16 is a simple verse yet so many look for an outward evidence.

As for unrighteous things done being judged, even a Christian can do an unrighteous thing. There is no "sinless" human being; saved or unsaved.

The only sin which will earn death is the sin of unbelief. Never accepting Jesus Christ, our final sacrifice for sin and our Redeemer.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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star said:
You are looking outward. God looks inward. Evidence of salvation is a new heart/soul sealed by the Holy Spirit at the moment of confession and acceptance of that free gift of salvation. John 3:16 is a simple verse yet so many look for an outward evidence.

As for unrighteous things done being judged, even a Christian can do an unrighteous thing. There is no "sinless" human being; saved or unsaved.

The only sin which will earn death is the sin of unbelief. Never accepting Jesus Christ, our final sacrifice for sin and our Redeemer.
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Amen.............I agree
 
M

Mercy4u

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Nov 12, 2017
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dcontroversal said:
The bolded is not in any equation....salvation is eternal and though a man may stand naked and shamed before the Lord with works of wood, hay and stubble and very little to no reward (misthos) pay or wage for service his salvation is secure in Christ.
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Truth.

Seems that in today's major "theological ideas/theories" they overlook the fact that believers can advance(great in His kingdom) or not(least in His Kingdom.)

How can a believer glorify Christ and advance in the Christian way of life if they don't follow the SIMPLE truth of never perishing? I contend they cannot advance. They may clean up the flesh to the best of their ability, but they are stuck on 'start' concerning their Spiritual life.
 
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Endoscopy

Endoscopy

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Magenta said:
Some interpret the baptism of fire as referring to the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was sent from heaven. “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them” (Acts 2:2-3). It is important to note that these were tongues as of fire, not literal fire.

Some believe that the baptism with fire refers to the Holy Spirit’s office as the energizer of the believer’s service, and the purifier of evil within, because of the exhortation “Do not quench the Spirit” found in 1Thessalonians 5:19. The command to the believer is to not put out the Spirit’s fire by suppressing His ministry.

A third interpretation is that the baptism of fire refers to judgment. In all four Gospel passages mentioned above, Mark and John speak of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but only Matthew and Luke mention the baptism with fire. The immediate context of Matthew and Luke is judgment (Matthew 3:7-12; Luke 3: 7-17). The context of Mark and John is not (Mark 1:1-8; John 1:29-34). We know that the Lord Jesus is coming in flaming fire to judge those who do not know God (2 Thessalonians 1:3-10; John 5:21-23; Revelation 20:11-15), but praise be to God that He will save all that will come and put their trust in Him (John 3:16)! From gotquestions.org
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ROFL
​I just love all of the distinctives of the different denominations on issues like this one. Since it doesn't impact salvation then we just agree to disagree.
 
R

Ralph-

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#47,326
Now you all have switched back from 'you WILL have works' to 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back'. You people are going to have to make up your minds. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

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#47,327
#47,327
Ralph- said:
Now you all have switched back from 'you WILL have works' to 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back'. You people are going to have to make up your minds. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
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you say "you all" before you make a false interpretation on others beliefs....

even though those who have been born again WILL become a new creature and it can manifest outwardly as "works" does not mean you HAVE to have works....

you think no one has ever came to the truth in their last moments?


its not

"well if i can sin... awesome let the sinning begin - Jesus is my get out of hell free card"
(from love of flesh and world and as good as blindness^)
its not

"ok now im without sin.... let me maintain my perfection so i dont have regain my own salvation through my works if i sin- Jesus sacrifice is second to my works and grace isnt eternal"
(from pride and self righteousness... false doctrine^)

its

"i am a wicked sinner Jesus and i believe in your promise... please save me and let me covered by YOUR righteousness- Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of those who believe on His name"

(from the Holy spirit after hearing Gods call^)


the third mindset leads to self examination

and a desire to love Him who loved you first
and fruits that arent of ourself

or our works

but the works of the Holy spirit in us
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#47,328
#47,328
Ralph- said:
Now you all have switched back from 'you WILL have works' to 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back'. You people are going to have to make up your minds. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
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your not being honest, your just making this crap up. You know that is not the case. No one said this at all.


 
VCO

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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#47,329
star said:
Did you read my post thoroughly? I said we may all be dead physically in our bodies which we will be. Our souls will no longer be in our physical bodies. Hope this clears up my belief about souls.
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AND then again, the Rapture could happen at at any time.

Zechariah 14:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
 
TruthTalk

TruthTalk

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eternally-gratefull said:
your not being honest, your just making this crap up. You know that is not the case. No one said this at all.
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Hi Eternally-grateful, you are to be sure 100 percent correct and it kind of makes your head twist and turn trying to understand what his point is. He is actually posting misleading and false statements, (straw man arguments), hoping someone will engage him in his twisted view of the gospel. He is on a fishing expedition waiting for his next victim. Do not take the bait although tempting and he will in due time move on. What's his motivation, maybe too much time on his hands.
 
stillness

stillness

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Walk trough the valley
#47,331
A friend addressed me about picking up the cross, then crossed my mind: Is picking up the cross work or a labor of Love.
Trouble is the question could also be: Is picking up the cross labour or a work of Love. Though I prefer the first question as work is more associated with works of the Law (except for James). Also picking up your cross is not about proving yourself righteous since the reason we do is because we are sinners. Having fellowship in the sufferings and death of Christ frees us from our sin, dying to all that is not of God. There is difference between forgiven and overcoming and we need to know we are loved as we are before we can be motivated to change out of Love. The Languages are confused until we walk in Love. Until then words like labourer and worker could divide us, our weapons could end up fighting one another, saying the same thing differently. We will only be united by the Holy Spirit. The work is not about proving ourselves righteous. "It's no longer I that lives but Christ," this will not change, without the Holy Spirit we don't have a life. The work is walking in the light we have to get more light, but as soon as we think we can prove ourselves righteous we are deceiving ourselves and will fall. By the works of the Law shall no man be justified in His sight. rather "Pride goes before the fall."
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."[/FONT]
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#47,333
Ralph- said:
Now you all have switched back from 'you WILL have works' to 'you don't have to have works when Jesus comes back'. You people are going to have to make up your minds. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
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It's NOT that we MUST have works in order to become saved but that we WILL have works IF we truly are saved. ;)
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#47,334
Hizikyah said:
1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."
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To guard, observe, watch over His commands under the New Covenant is not heavy or burdensome, but to perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant is heavy and burdensome! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

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mailmandan said:
To guard, observe, watch over His commands under the New Covenant is not heavy or burdensome, but to perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant is heavy and burdensome! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).
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Or else! LOL, you make it Yahshua's blood/mercy OR perfect obedience, there is no or:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”


[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 2:1-2, “My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah, a righteous One. And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.”

ALOS:

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Only someone in oppisition to Him and His Commands would call them heavy or burdensome...

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Deuteronomy 30:11-13, “For this Law which I command you this day is not hidden from you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask; Who will ascend up into heaven for us, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask; Who will cross the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it?”

What is burdensome or heavy?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You have no other mighty ones against My face. (If you love YHWH you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not have idols. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love YHWH you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not take the name of YHWH your Strength in vain. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love YHWH you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it set apart. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love YHWH you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Honor your father and your mother. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love you fellow human you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not murder. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love you fellow human you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not commit adultery. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love you fellow human you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not steal. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love you fellow human you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love you fellow human you will do)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You shall not covet. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](If you love you fellow human you will do)

Burdensome? NO

Loving to YHWH and our neighbor? YES.


[/FONT]
​
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How can you have love any other way? You can not, well you can have human made up love, a made up human standard of what love is, those 2 are easy to twist into whatever we want them to be huh? Nayone in the Spirit of Yah would readily accept the Instructions as YHWH says...
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#47,336
Hizikyah said:
Only someone in oppisition to Him and His Commands would call them heavy or burdensome...
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Only someone who mixes law and grace/old covenant with new covenant would make such a statement/straw man argument.

 
R

Ralph-

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#47,337
mailmandan said:
It's NOT that we MUST have works in order to become saved but that we WILL have works IF we truly are saved. ;)
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That's what I'm saying!!!!!!!

If you are truly in relationship with God through Christ you'll have something to show for it when he comes back. If your're still a drunk, or a fornicator when he comes back that's NOT what saved people do. There's a big difference between falling back into old ways and never having left them. You can't just write that off as 'oh, he's just growing up into Christ'. No he's not. He's showing he doesn't know Christ and will be rejected when Jesus comes back, not saved.
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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#47,338
mailmandan said:
Only someone who mixes law and grace/old covenant with new covenant would make such a statement/straw man argument.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#47,339
#47,339
mailmandan said:
To guard, observe, watch over His commands under the New Covenant is not heavy or burdensome, but to perfectly obey the 10 commandments OR ELSE under the Old Covenant is heavy and burdensome! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).
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I'm pretty sure H. is not promoting perfect obedience to the 10 commandments. Jesus' forgiveness fills in where we have fallen short. They know that, and you know that!

And I'm pretty sure that the OR ELSE is no different in their theology than it is in ours. If you are saved and you don't obey you will be disciplined. If you're not saved, your disobedience will cause you to be lost when Jesus comes back. Whether you ever had salvation or not is not the point. That doesn't matter, the point is you're unsaved at the coming of Christ. You'll be lost. You know this. Please, you guys, stop being unfair to H.
 
Hizikyah

Hizikyah

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Ralph- said:
I'm pretty sure H. is not promoting perfect obedience to the 10 commandments. Jesus' forgiveness fills in where we have fallen short. They know that, and you know that!

And I'm pretty sure that the OR ELSE is no different in their theology than it is in ours. If you are saved and you don't obey you will be disciplined. If you're not saved, your disobedience will cause you to be lost when Jesus comes back. Whether you ever had salvation or not is not the point. That doesn't matter, the point is you're unsaved at the coming of Christ. You'll be lost. You know this. Please, you guys, stop being unfair to H.
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Thank you and praiseYah!

Yeah it is the common reply to any that say obedience is right, many will say "sinless perfectionists!" "Lawyer!" "Pharisee!"
"justifie by works!" etc. It is all misguided attacks. For obedience to YHWH's Commands is never a bad thing if done in the Messiah.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…" [/FONT]
 
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