Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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We are not likely to convince each other; but I see the second coming addressed in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea Joel, Daniel, and Zechariah. Therefore our readings of Mat 24, and Revelation will be quite different.
Indeed and the "second coming" (parousia) in fact occurred in the first century AD.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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That's how Preterists deal with much of the Bible.

Nothing means what it says.
Sure it does. You just have to understand and study the way they talked back then. What is more relevant, the way they talked and used figurative language or the way we do? We use figurative language all the time and don't give it a second thought, neither do we struggle to understand it. What do you think, that we were the first to use figurative language? Do you think the prophets were prevented from using it? If you think this, then you don't understand any of the ancient writings because they wrote at least as colorfully as we do today.
 

PlainWord

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AB,

First, Happy New Year good buddy!! May God grant you and yours the best year ever!!

Brother PlainWord,

Rev 11:11-12.
Actually this passage discusses the resurrection of the two witnesses. It does not define them as Jeru.

Tell me then, who are the 2 witnesses if it is not the people of Israel?

The problem is, that no matter who it is, (it is the people of Israel, believers), that there is a resurrection that is witnessed by the Roman beast and the kings of the east from across the Euphrates.

Although you quote old Jo as fact, you don't see any references to a resurrection. As much as he recorded, you would think that he would have mentioned that.
Nobody knows for certain. There are a ton of theories about them. Jo records one witness who fits really well but does not record a resurrection of him. But he was with Titus the whole time and Titus commissioned Jo to write the account so he had to be a bit careful what he wrote.

That said, we can locate them by virtue of them being at the end of the second woe. We know the first woe ended with the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:12) therefore the 2 witnesses were active for the sixth trumpet. The 5th seal lasted 5 months and we can line it up perfectly from the time of Titus' final siege until he broke through the walls.

The 6th trumpet was the final Roman assault upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was during this time that the witnesses were killed.


Your not going to make the 70 ad dest fit into the 7th trumpet. Look, I've tried to do it myself, I've been through this thought process before. The 7 trumpets are what comes after 70 ad, and the 7th trumpet is Jesus coming for the kingdom Rev 11:15, and the end of this planet.

Understand that the Jerusalem pictured at the 7th trumpet, is the one that you see today. Jerusalem restored after the ToG's have ended. This time Israel and Jerusalem will not be fleeing. It will be the end of flesh Israel on this planet.

The resurrection shown is yet to come, it is the rapt/resur coming, the second coming for salvation.

Not the coming to destroy Jerusalem with Roman armies. That was not salvation of any kind for the people of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
Of course it fits. All of it fits in the first century and none of it fits in our time.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Is Christ reigning now???

Joy to the world, the Lord has come!
Let earth receive her King
Let every heart prepare Him room
And Heaven and nature sing
And Heaven and nature sing
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing
Joy to the World, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy


We seem to have lost this knowledge in our day.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Yes 70 ad, those scriptures are about that.

But that doesn't prove that Rev 20:7-9 is 70 ad., you are going under a preconceived theory that this surrounding is the one of 70 ad.. Again I will tell you that Rev 20 won't fit the context of the 70 ad time line.

Please locate in the Bible any tangible actual historical event from 100 AD to 1948. I would say until today but you're sure to include the return of the nation of Israel as a foretold event, rather than their restoration to the Land following Babylon or during the Maccabees.

Most of Rev 20 is in the spiritual realm.

Matt 25:31-46, 34, You have to be physically dead to inherit the kingdom.
I don't see anyone dead there. Do you? So dead nations were giving food and drink to the needy? I see the separation of apostate Israel and the believers. This is the same separation of the wicked and righteous taught elsewhere, like Mt 13.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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AB,

Brother PW,

Jesus is Lord, right? Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in Jesus, right? Jn 14:10.
Or course, but the Father is clearly the member of the Trinity in view here and this happened in the 2nd century AD and I've given you the historical account from the Maccabees to prove it. For whatever reason, some are unwilling to consider divine intervention and presence in more recent events (not that the 2nd century BC is recent) although they have no problems with it early in the OT days of ancient Israel. Every Christian believes Christ first appeared as Messiah early in the first century BC but cannot accept that also came back in that same era. Instead, they want to put His return off thousands of years rending meaningless any wrath against those involved with His death.

Seriously, God was involved with Israel from its start with the Egyptians and of course with the wars fought under Joshua and David, so why couldn't He be involved in helping the Maccabees, who loved Him? And if He was, would He not have been around during the final judgment and destruction of Israel? Did He have anything against apostate Israel of the first century BC? Do you think He sat quietly in Heaven playing no role after 2,000 years of loving and caring for His people?

Do we look like Jesus did when Saul/Paul saw Him, right now? What you are saying is that if this is all 70 ad, and we bear the image of Jesus right now, we should be in the glory of Jesus in this material world, right now.
No, I'm not saying we bear His image right now, but we do take His name of "Christian." Paul is clear that we bear His image after physical death. But, this does not preclude us from belonging to the Kingdom right now!!



 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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AB,

Remember these verses when you see the fountains of the waters in the trumpets and vials in Rev.
LOL. Already happened.

“You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was the Holy One. Because You have judged these things.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.”

Who shed the blood of the prophets? Did apostate Jews kill the prophets (including most of the disciples) or will the prophets be killed by people in the future, the Catholic Church perhaps?

"Blood to drink?" Did you know in 70 AD inside Jerusalem, that food and water shortage was so bad they turned to cannibalism? Instead of having clean water they had blood to drink.


It just sounds more like a Pentecost Holy Spirit kingdom prophecy to me. Where we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and then it flowed out to the gentile nations, the seas.
Nope, in this case Zec 14 was still about Israel following the victory of the Maccabees. This was really the last time God was pleased with the Nation of Israel.

So heaven and earth passed away at that time?
No, they passed away during Antiochus and returned when the Maccabees defeated them and cleansed the temple. Again, "heaven and earth" are often used in place of Israel. See Hag 2:6, 21. Haggai is not telling Zerubbabel about some event many thousands of years into his future.

Six times in the OT, the heavens and earth were shaken. This referred to the Nation of Israel, not the literal heaven and earth, although an earthquake was often present as well.

Good grief brother PW, why wouldn't I read it?
Because you already told me you have no interest in any ancient writing except the Bible. If you don't know history, how can you know what has and has not been fulfilled?

Wake up! Israel is restored to Jerusalem.
Yes, and this could be significant. I see it as such. However, I can find no direct prophesy telling us about the 1948 or 67 events of Israel today. The only guide we have is how God handled things in the past to understand how He might handle things in the future. He's been pretty much "hands-off" for the past 1900+ years although I do think He sided with Israel in their 20th century wars as they overcame huge odds to win each war.

And I will tell you again, both theories leave out the fact that the iron legs/toes are Rome after the fall of Jerusalem.
Man, you sure love your Dan 2 statue. You know there is another way of looking at the division of Rome and the mixing of her iron with clay? When Rome first conquered Israel in 63 BC under Pompey, it was done with largely an all Roman force (iron). Yet in 70 AD, when Rome put down the Jewish rebellion and ended them as a nation, it was done with majority of foreign fighters (clay) from the east. The Jews had many early successes against Rome in the time leading up to 67 AD. Rome clearly wasn't as strong as she had been the previous 100 years.

"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed."

I believe the above kings where Nero, Vespasian and Titus, the trinity of evil. You are still waiting for Christ to establish His kingdom which will fill the earth. You ignore the fact that prior to Christ, only Israel was a Godly nation. Since 70 AD, many nations have been Godly and Christianity indeed has come to every nation on planet Earth.
 
O

OtherWay210

Guest
The only way to escape is, by knowing not to take the mark of the beast
If you did not take the mark, then why would you be under Gods wrath ?

The wrath, is avoided, if you can follow that teaching Christ gave. Instead of trying to looking for ways out of what Gods words say ..

All the verses you've posted simply state if you follow God, you wont be under His Wrath. It explains nothing of the nature of the tribulation, or the scriptures that teach exactly what God and Christ taught concerning it, and the true way one escapes it ... You have to have the gospel armor on to stand ..Theres just no verses saying you're not put under tribulation simply for being Christian .

Being in the tribulation, is not understood to mean incurring Gods wrath ..

If you take the mark, than, you'd be under that Wrath ..
 
O

OtherWay210

Guest
The idea that Christ was talking about 70 ad , is very Wrong . He gives enough details that theres no way one can confuse that Hes talking about the very end of the age. The return after the tribulation of Satan . The only way to escape, is to wait on the true Christ ..
 
O

OtherWay210

Guest
Rapture is NOT The Fathers' Will .


Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Teaching rapture, is the equivalent of Forgetting God, during the tribulation, rapture sets people up for worshiping antichrist.

If you dont remain faithful during that time , all the good things, and the fact you're Christian wont matter. You'l be in sin in front of Christ, for being a Satan worshiper.

Instead of looking for fake doctrines. Simply Listen to Christs Word. You mayn't be here during that time, but the people who've listen to you maybe, and they'll fall as a result .. Rapture is false !
 
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PlainWord

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The idea that Christ was talking about 70 ad , is very Wrong . He gives enough details that theres no way one can confuse that Hes talking about the very end of the age. The return after the tribulation of Satan . The only way to escape, is to wait on the true Christ ..
Of course Christ was talking about 70 AD my friend. The "tribulation" was the siege of Jerusalem. Every clue He gives in Mat 24 happened and is part of the historical record. There isn't one thing He mention that did not take place in the first century.

Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

He is speaking of the generation He was talking to, not some generation many thousands of years into His future. He was speaking of the end of their age, the Mosaic Age, not the end of our age which began in 70 AD at the passing of the Law.
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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Sure it does. You just have to understand and study the way they talked back then. What is more relevant, the way they talked and used figurative language or the way we do? We use figurative language all the time and don't give it a second thought, neither do we struggle to understand it. What do you think, that we were the first to use figurative language? Do you think the prophets were prevented from using it? If you think this, then you don't understand any of the ancient writings because they wrote at least as colorfully as we do today.
It's not figurative language,

it's the symbolic language of the OT scriptures.

That is where the interpretation of the symbols is found.

You can't just make the interpretation up.
 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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AB,

First, Happy New Year good buddy!! May God grant you and yours the best year ever!!


Brother PW, thank you, and happy new year to you, and all.


Actually this passage discusses the resurrection of the two witnesses. It does not define them as Jeru.
Rev 11:8, They are in Jerusalem. Vs 11-12, they are resurrected and thier enemies beheld them.

Rome and the kings of the east.

You're not going to fit the resurrection of the 2 w's to being in the past, 70 ad.


Nobody knows for certain. There are a ton of theories about them. Jo records one witness who fits really well but does not record a resurrection of him. But he was with Titus the whole time and Titus commissioned Jo to write the account so he had to be a bit careful what he wrote.
The 2 w's are the word of God Zech 4:6, that is who they are, for sure. Israel is in the possession of the scriptures. They carry the word. The word of God flows through them.


That said, we can locate them by virtue of them being at the end of the second woe. We know the first woe ended with the 5th trumpet (Rev 9:12) therefore the 2 witnesses were active for the sixth trumpet. The 5th seal lasted 5 months and we can line it up perfectly from the time of Titus' final siege until he broke through the walls.
The 2 w's, tell the same story as the seals and the trumpets. They are the same story told in different ways.

The time line is from the rejection of the kingdom by Israel 37 ad., until the rapt/resur coming, yet to come. Basically.


trumpet was the final Roman assault upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was during this time that the witnesses were killed.


Did the Romans have 200,000,000 men with them?


Of course it fits. All of it fits in the first century and none of it fits in our time.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
The coming of the kingdom at Pentecost is not what this verse is saying.

This is Jesus coming for the kingdom at the end of this world/planet.


Is Christ reigning now???

Joy to the world, the Lord has come!
Let earth receive her King
Let every heart prepare Him room
And Heaven and nature sing
And Heaven and nature sing
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing
Joy to the World, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy


We seem to have lost this knowledge in our day.
Jesus is reigning now from the eternal throne of David, in the new Jerusalem in heaven.


 

davida

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Sep 9, 2017
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What is a Penecost Holy Spirit kingdom? Can you quote your source?

On this basis you negate the promises to Israel for a physical nation? Jesus will never sit on the throne of David?

One of the proofs of Biblical accuracy is fulfillment of prophecy.

God is unchanging, if He said it is going to happen it will.
 
O

OtherWay210

Guest
To: PlainWord

Christ referred to prophecy of Daniel, given in Babylonia under captivity . The gospels in question nor Revelation mention Romans .

In fact Satan and his system to be ; the final beast of Daniel are called by the name Babylon .
Not Rome .
The second advent Christ taught was yet future . When in the temple Reading from Isaiah
He stopped short of this passage ; saying the part He read was fullfilled .
But this part is not yet :
Isaiah 61:2 ( , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; )

This Day of vengeance, the Day of the Lord, is taught throughout the Bible, as a time when Christ is in full control of this earth, and all enemies are put down . One cant claim to understand the bible, and at the same time, deny this fact..

Nothing in Matthew 24 is history. Its prophecy . The generation concerning the signs, is about a generation from the point of Israel , or Jews, being established as a nation again. Which did Not happen during Roman rule .
In fact they were dispersed. Christ was Teaching the parable in Jeremiah . How after they came back from captivity, they would be established . But they would not bear fruit .

Titus annexed them And under the Romans they had no state of their own .





 
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OtherWay210

Guest
They dispersed . The prophecy Christ taught concerning the generation that would witness His signs leading to the second advent , has nothing to do with their dispersal . And everything to do with their establishment. Which happened in Ad 1948 . So from that point, leading on into the end, the Christians would witness it . As Christ said, only God knows the moment..But He gave us the generation and the signs to Watch for.
 
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abcdef

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I don't see anyone dead there. Do you? So dead nations were giving food and drink to the needy? I see the separation of apostate Israel and the believers. This is the same separation of the wicked and righteous taught elsewhere, like Mt 13.
Matt 25:31-46,

Those people MUST be dead.

Otherwise you are saying that flesh and blood does inherit the kingdom.


 

abcdef

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Mar 30, 2016
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Please locate in the Bible any tangible actual historical event from 100 AD to 1948. I would say until today but you're sure to include the return of the nation of Israel as a foretold event, rather than their restoration to the Land following Babylon or during the Maccabees.

Most of Rev 20 is in the spiritual realm.
Brother PW,

The time line.

67 bc. Rome invades Israel, the rule of the Roman iron dragon beast begins. The mark of the beast begins under Rome and Caesar. The trouble associated with the beast begins. Many martyred.

Jesus born, Herod the dragon tries to kill Jesus.

33 ad, The 1st resurrection, Jesus.

33 ad, The Pentecost, gift of the Holy Spirit Kingdom, begins. Jesus sits on the eternal throne of David in heaven, ruling heaven and earth.

37 ad, The kingdom is rejected by Israel. The 4 horsemen begin, the trib period leading to the dest of Jerusalem begins.

37 ad-67 ad, The apostles persecution of Matt 24, earthquakes, famines, pests.

--

The 5th seal.

--

67 ad, Jerusalem surrounded, Lk 21:20-24. Those in Judea flee to the mountains etc. Israel scattered into the gentile nations.

70 ad, Jerusalem falls. The end of the age. The completion of the 6th/7th seal. The times of the gentiles trampling begin Lk 21:20-24, 24. Jesus brings clouds of Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem (but it is not the resurrection coming for salvation). The great time of Jacob's trouble begins, the tribulation after the dest of Jeru begins.

The end of the first 3 1/2 times (3 1/2t's). The beginning of the second 3 1/2t's.

(The first 3 1/2t's is from Babylon until 70 ad. The second 3 1/2t's is from 70 ad until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem.) ( The 7 times are showing the same time as the statue in Dan. 2.)

--

70 ad- 96 ad, The 1/2 hour of silence.

--

96 ad approx., The giving of the Revelation to John and the 7 congregations. The scroll is opened. It is the story of the 2 witnesses (2w's)

96 ad until Israel is restored to Jerusalem (between the 5th and 6th trumpets), The 4 trumpets sound. They show the continuing withdrawing of God's blessings on the broken natural branches.

--

!929, The 5th trumpet, Rome returns as a nation. The beast is Rome, the iron Dan 2, and the 4th beast Dan. 7, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. The dragon also has 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12.

The spirit of the dragon beast that comes of of the abyss wants to kill Israel and the gospel. He is the spirit of Caesar and the Bishop of Rome.

The beast returns to sit on the seat of the beast, Rome.


1967, Jerusalem restored to Israel. The times of the gentile trampling end Lk 21:24, 24. The end of the 4 trumpets. The second 3 1/2t's end. The statue of Daniel 2 ends. The 2 witnesses (Israel) are restored to Jerusalem, the sackcloth period ends. The woman in the wilderness of the gentile nations Rev 12, returns home to Jerusalem.


9/11/2001, The 6th trumpet sounds. The process of the Euphrates drying up (Saddam, the waters are people), making way for the army from the kings of the east (Iran), to attack Jerusalem begins. The 200 mill. man army begins to assemble (all those who hate Israel and support the cause).

The meaning of the story of the 2w's is finally revealed. It is Israel through the times of the gentiles until they are restored to Jerusalem and the rapt/resurrection unto salvation happens.

--

Yet to come,

The dragon iron beast Caesar BoR, will deceive Iran into attacking Israel and Jerusalem. With a treaty or support for the idea.

Armies from the kings of the east (Iran) and Magog (the gentile nations, Russia, Syria, etc.), meet in Armageddon.

Israel loses and Jerusalem falls.

The enemies of Israel celebrate, sends gifts, and rejoice.

3 1/2 days later,.......the 7th trumpet and this planet ends in fire.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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To: PlainWord

Christ referred to prophecy of Daniel, given in Babylonia under captivity . The gospels in question nor Revelation mention Romans .

In fact Satan and his system to be ; the final beast of Daniel are called by the name Babylon .
Not Rome .
The second advent Christ taught was yet future . When in the temple Reading from Isaiah
He stopped short of this passage ; saying the part He read was fullfilled .
But this part is not yet :
Isaiah 61:2 ( , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; )

This Day of vengeance, the Day of the Lord, is taught throughout the Bible, as a time when Christ is in full control of this earth, and all enemies are put down . One cant claim to understand the bible, and at the same time, deny this fact..

Nothing in Matthew 24 is history. Its prophecy . The generation concerning the signs, is about a generation from the point of Israel , or Jews, being established as a nation again. Which did Not happen during Roman rule .
In fact they were dispersed. Christ was Teaching the parable in Jeremiah . How after they came back from captivity, they would be established . But they would not bear fruit .

Titus annexed them And under the Romans they had no state of their own .






Dear OW210,

Sadly you are so far off the rails I doubt there is any correcting you. Mat 24 starts out with Jesus discussing the destruction of the temple to come (and it did in 70 AD). The disciples then asked when these things (the destr. of the temple) would be and the termination of the age. They understood that they were in the "last days" of their age as affirmed by Peter (Acts 2:17) and the writer of Hebrews (1:2).

LAST DAYS = END OF THE AGE

These terms discuss the same thing, that being the destruction of Israel. Jesus goes on to answer that question for the rest of Mat 24. Everything He discusses happened to that final generation of Israel.

In referencing Daniel in Mt 24 Christ is discussing Dan 9:26-27. The Abomination of Desolation were in fact the Roman (not Babylonian) forces on the temple mount as it is an abomination for any foreigner to enter the temple or the temple complex. The "people of the prince to come" were the Roman forces under Titus (the Prince of Rome at the time). They brought the end of Jerusalem by fire (consummation) thereby causing it's desolation, hence the phrase, "Abomination of Desolation."

But you don't have to take my word for it, the companion passage of Luke 21 replaces the "AofD" with "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies." Note only those in Judea were to flee, not the whole planet. Two chapters earlier in Lk 19, Christ gives the context for this upcoming war:

[SUP]43 [/SUP]For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, [SUP]44 [/SUP]and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

If you know anything about history you would know this is exactly how Rome defeated Jerusalem and the reason God allowed it was because, "they did not know the time of their visitation of the Messiah." They should have known because Daniel gave them the time line of 70 weeks of years which fits perfectly without a gap.
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Brother PW,

The time line.

67 bc. Rome invades Israel, the rule of the Roman iron dragon beast begins. The mark of the beast begins under Rome and Caesar. The trouble associated with the beast begins. Many martyred.

Jesus born, Herod the dragon tries to kill Jesus.

33 ad, The 1st resurrection, Jesus.

33 ad, The Pentecost, gift of the Holy Spirit Kingdom, begins. Jesus sits on the eternal throne of David in heaven, ruling heaven and earth.

37 ad, The kingdom is rejected by Israel. The 4 horsemen begin, the trib period leading to the dest of Jerusalem begins.

37 ad-67 ad, The apostles persecution of Matt 24, earthquakes, famines, pests.

--

The 5th seal.

--

67 ad, Jerusalem surrounded, Lk 21:20-24. Those in Judea flee to the mountains etc. Israel scattered into the gentile nations.

70 ad, Jerusalem falls. The end of the age. The completion of the 6th/7th seal. The times of the gentiles trampling begin Lk 21:20-24, 24. Jesus brings clouds of Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem (but it is not the resurrection coming for salvation). The great time of Jacob's trouble begins, the tribulation after the dest of Jeru begins.

The end of the first 3 1/2 times (3 1/2t's). The beginning of the second 3 1/2t's.

(The first 3 1/2t's is from Babylon until 70 ad. The second 3 1/2t's is from 70 ad until Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem.) ( The 7 times are showing the same time as the statue in Dan. 2.)

--

70 ad- 96 ad, The 1/2 hour of silence.

--

96 ad approx., The giving of the Revelation to John and the 7 congregations. The scroll is opened. It is the story of the 2 witnesses (2w's)

96 ad until Israel is restored to Jerusalem (between the 5th and 6th trumpets), The 4 trumpets sound. They show the continuing withdrawing of God's blessings on the broken natural branches.

--

!929, The 5th trumpet, Rome returns as a nation. The beast is Rome, the iron Dan 2, and the 4th beast Dan. 7, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns. The dragon also has 7 heads and 10 horns Rev 12.

The spirit of the dragon beast that comes of of the abyss wants to kill Israel and the gospel. He is the spirit of Caesar and the Bishop of Rome.

The beast returns to sit on the seat of the beast, Rome.


1967, Jerusalem restored to Israel. The times of the gentile trampling end Lk 21:24, 24. The end of the 4 trumpets. The second 3 1/2t's end. The statue of Daniel 2 ends. The 2 witnesses (Israel) are restored to Jerusalem, the sackcloth period ends. The woman in the wilderness of the gentile nations Rev 12, returns home to Jerusalem.


9/11/2001, The 6th trumpet sounds. The process of the Euphrates drying up (Saddam, the waters are people), making way for the army from the kings of the east (Iran), to attack Jerusalem begins. The 200 mill. man army begins to assemble (all those who hate Israel and support the cause).

The meaning of the story of the 2w's is finally revealed. It is Israel through the times of the gentiles until they are restored to Jerusalem and the rapt/resurrection unto salvation happens.

--

Yet to come,

The dragon iron beast Caesar BoR, will deceive Iran into attacking Israel and Jerusalem. With a treaty or support for the idea.

Armies from the kings of the east (Iran) and Magog (the gentile nations, Russia, Syria, etc.), meet in Armageddon.

Israel loses and Jerusalem falls.

The enemies of Israel celebrate, sends gifts, and rejoice.

3 1/2 days later,.......the 7th trumpet and this planet ends in fire.
You started out so well. You should know that "seals" merely seal the book, they do not proceed it. Thus they "seal" the contents inside which contents give more description. The prophesy ends at the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl. 7-7-7. If you look at the end of each of these passages we see they remained unrepentant, and life goes on, it doesn't end or turn into some millennium without sin.

The trumps lead up to the final wrath being poured out upon Jerusalem, the Mother of all Harlots. John actually writes Revelation prior to 70 AD. There is only one source which hints at a writing later than this and that source is second hand hearsay and is ambiguous as to its meaning. The entire book is discussing the very soon to come fall of Israel and return presence of God and His Son to execute judgment upon apostate Israel. They had their 490 years to accomplish the things set forth in Dan 9:24.
 
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abcdef

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63
AB,



Or course, but the Father is clearly the member of the Trinity in view here and this happened in the 2nd century AD and I've given you the historical account from the Maccabees to prove it. For whatever reason, some are unwilling to consider divine intervention and presence in more recent events (not that the 2nd century BC is recent) although they have no problems with it early in the OT days of ancient Israel. Every Christian believes Christ first appeared as Messiah early in the first century BC but cannot accept that also came back in that same era. Instead, they want to put His return off thousands of years rending meaningless any wrath against those involved with His death.


God plays a part in all of Israel's world. Past, present, and future.

There was wrath in 70 ad, and wrath after 70 ad also, against the broken natural branches, God sent a sword after them even after 70 ad.

Seriously, God was involved with Israel from its start with the Egyptians and of course with the wars fought under Joshua and David, so why couldn't He be involved in helping the Maccabees, who loved Him? And if He was, would He not have been around during the final judgment and destruction of Israel? Did He have anything against apostate Israel of the first century BC?
Yes, Jesus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 ad.

You are preaching to someone who already believes that Jesus came and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 ad.

Do you think He sat quietly in Heaven playing no role after 2,000 years of loving and caring for His people?
Do you think after 2000 yrs, that He still plays a part in Israel today?

No, I'm not saying we bear His image right now, but we do take His name of "Christian." Paul is clear that we bear His image after physical death. But, this does not preclude us from belonging to the Kingdom right now!!
We bear His image through the Holy Spirit. But not like after we die. 1 Cor 15 is showing the resurrection after death, you want to say that it is fulfilled in this world at conversion.

We are in the kingdom now.