Not By Works

[Cee]

It seems you are professing a faith only theology, if so it would be more convincing if you were to quote verses that state such.

So your argument is that faith and belief are different?

If so, I will concede to a belief in God alone viewpoint.

Because if you study FAITH it means BELIEF in God.

Believe is trust, faith is trust in God.

This is why when Peter sank Jesus said oh ye of little faith, why did you doubt?

 

[Mercy4u]

How can you repent of your sins if you never look at yourself, and can i trust in what Jesus has done and continue in sin that grace may abound?
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


I agree that trusting in Jesus and His works is what saves us and our works count for nothing in the judgement because Jesus payed it all. But if you truly believe in the power of Jesus to change and transform us by faith, than will you be working the deeds of the devil or working the deeds of Christ. If Christ is in you than your works will show it.

Making works a dirty thing is an extreme, Paul was talking to a generation of people that were extremely focused on works to be saved so he tried to promote faith in Christs grace. Today if Paul was here he would see the grace extreme being pushed and promote what James taught in Chapter 2.

Works can be a trap and if we focus on self and trying to save our-self we have missed the point.

I have faith in the justifying power of Jesus = Imputed Righteousness.
I also have faith in the sanctifying power of Jesus = Imparted righteousness.

Imparted righteousness = Jesus giving me the ability to overcome the world and to do good works. Christ in me and you.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

That is the difference. I look at myself from my new Creation in Christ. I don't look at my salvation. My salvation is a done deal. I would offend and blaspheme Him if I thought my salvation was at stake.

We need to name and site sins and EVIL(OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS/GOOD) to God to get back in fellowship with Him. Not to regain salvation/maintain salvation/get saved.

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for sharing that Sis.

You are welcome All the talk of Johnny Mac brought that on

 

[Cee]

As you can see Belief in God and Faith are synonymous:

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him.

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

As you can see FAITH and born of God are the same. And FAITH ALONE overcomes the world.

And who are those who are saved? Notice the present realities:

1 John 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.

 

[TMS]

I firmly agree with you.

But when we take away our hope in glory, we have nothing to purify ourselves with.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

What is the hope? That when we see Him we shall be like Him. Because He who is pure in us.

If we take away the reality people are saved and THUS transformed. How do they access by faith the work done on the cross?

Yes we need the hope, 3 things remain faith, hope and love.
1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love worketh no ill.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I said i had faith in Justification and sanctification, i should have added glorification, we need this hope because without it we have nothing.

 

[Cee]

Yes we need the hope, 3 things remain faith, hope and love.
1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love worketh no ill.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I said i had faith in Justification and sanctification, i should have added glorification, we need this hope because without it we have nothing.

Amen my friend. Once we understand what happened on the cross and WHO we now are joined with we can move on to being taught by the Spirit of Truth. And it is HE who gives us by grace understanding for what we HAVE been given.

1 Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

And this grace transforms us into who we are like. This is the working out of the present reality in Christ through grace. Which is why Paul continually prayed that the "eyes of their heart would be opened" and "filled with knowledge" and to "grow up into Him".

2 Co 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

I heard somewhere recently, that love is the greatest, also, because faith and hope will not be required in the everafter, once the mortal has put on immortality, and the corruptible replaced with the incorruptible (Who is Jesus Himself). Our hope will have been realized, and faith fulfilled, with the reality of the coming age. Love lasts forever, because God is love, and God is eternal, and will never pass away.

 

[Mercy4u]

Yes we need the hope, 3 things remain faith, hope and love.
1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love worketh no ill.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I said i had faith in Justification and sanctification, i should have added glorification, we need this hope because without it we have nothing.

And we need to remember that biblical Hope is not our modern day understanding of Hope.

Biblical Hope is certain, sure, going to happen. I am CERTAINLY going to be glorified in Christ(even if I am the least.) Absolutely, positively and no doubt I am sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[TMS]

Amen my friend. Once we understand what happened on the cross and WHO we now are joined with we can move on to being taught by the Spirit of Truth. And it is HE who gives us by grace understanding for what we HAVE been given.

1 Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

And this grace transforms us into who we are like. This is the working out of the present reality in Christ through grace. Which is why Paul continually prayed that the "eyes of their heart would be opened" and "filled with knowledge" and to "grow up into Him".

2 Co 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Yes It's all about Jesus in us.
Being transformed by His Spirit in us, and works of righteousness are a result of that transformation, and all the glory goes to Jesus because He did it in us.

It isn't about us it is about having faith in Jesus and that results in works.

 

[DJ2]

So your argument is that faith and belief are different?

If so, I will concede to a belief in God alone viewpoint.

Because if you study FAITH it means BELIEF in God.

Believe is trust, faith is trust in God.

This is why when Peter sank Jesus said oh ye of little faith, why did you doubt?

So your argument is that faith and belief are different?

Faith, trust, belief are the same. Some will play word games but in the end they are the same.

This is why when Peter sank Jesus said oh ye of little faith, why did you doubt?

"ye of little faith" vs. "faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain"

A little faith can't help you swim but it can move a mountain? In other words, "faith" is a general term that can not be used to measure the point of salvation.

Hence your struggle with finding a verse that states faith alone saves.

 

[Mercy4u]

Yes It's all about Jesus in us.
Being transformed by His Spirit in us, and works of righteousness are a result of that transformation, and all the glory goes to Jesus because He did it in us.

It isn't about us it is about having faith in Jesus and that results in works.

Our faith MAY have works. The thief on the cross. He had the work(non-meritorious) of believing. Done deal.

We have to have the mind of Christ before we can even THINK about doing true works for the Lord. And it takes discipline,study and lots of time/prayer to understand His mind.

We can't be quenching the Spirit. We can't be grieving the Spirit. We have to be walking in the Spirit. We have to be filled with the Spirit. And we have to have HIS KNOWLEDGE before we can even attempt this divine work/fruit/deeds.

It doesn't just naturally or magically come to us just because we are saved. We have to WORK at getting to know Him......study,study,study His mind. If we don't, kiss the works goodbye. But our salvation is sealed and secure.

 

[Cee]

Peter tried to walk on water not simply swim.

 

[Magenta]

Faith, trust, belief are the same. Some will play word games but in the end they are the same.

"ye of little faith" vs. "faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain"

A little faith can't help you swim but it can move a mountain? In other words,
"faith" is a general term that can not be used to measure the point of salvation.

Hence your struggle with finding a verse that states faith alone saves.

 

[TMS]

Our faith MAY have works. The thief on the cross. He had the work(non-meritorious) of believing. Done deal.

We have to have the mind of Christ before we can even THINK about doing true works for the Lord. And it takes discipline,study and lots of time/prayer to understand His mind.

We can't be quenching the Spirit. We can't be grieving the Spirit. We have to be walking in the Spirit. We have to be filled with the Spirit. And we have to have HIS KNOWLEDGE before we can even attempt this divine work/fruit/deeds.

It doesn't just naturally or magically come to us just because we are saved. We have to WORK at getting to know Him......study,study,study His mind. If we don't, kiss the works goodbye. But our salvation is sealed and secure.

Your talking about justification and sanctification,
Justification is instant and sure when we have true faith. Sanctification is a work of a lifetime that never ends. Christ in us.

 

[posthuman]

Thank you for your comment. You're right I didn't have any Scriptures that said "MOMENT", but the reality of who we are NOW in Christ is clearly outlined through Scripture.

If you think any are taken out of context, I'd love to discuss any of them with you further.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

We are children of God NOW.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1 Thess 5:5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

1 Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Mathematically one can prove that if a curve is decreasing at one point, and increasing at another, somewhere in-between there is at least one inflection point.

A 'moment' in other words

 

[TMS]

A true personal relationship with Jesus will result in Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

 

[posthuman]

Faith, trust, belief are the same. Some will play word games but in the end they are the same.



"ye of little faith" vs. "faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain"

A little faith can't help you swim but it can move a mountain? In other words, "faith" is a general term that can not be used to measure the point of salvation.

Hence your struggle with finding a verse that states faith alone saves.

The just shall live by faith.

'little' is a relative term. How big is a mustard seed in God's eyes?

 

[TruthTalk]

That is the difference. I look at myself from my new Creation in Christ. I don't look at my salvation. My salvation is a done deal. I would offend and blaspheme Him if I thought my salvation was at stake.

We need to name and site sins and EVIL(OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS/GOOD) to God to get back in fellowship with Him. Not to regain salvation/maintain salvation/get saved.

Hi Mercy4you can you show me where in the bible it say's that believers, "need to name and site sins and EVIL(OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS/GOOD) to God to get back in fellowship with Him. The bible say's, "and He will remember our sin's no more."Hebrew8:12

3) We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
4) We write this to make our joy complete. 1John1:3,4

 

[Ralph-]

[/quote]If you don't quench the Spirit He will complete what he began in you[/quote]

i can't seem to find this quotation in the scripture.
everywhere i look, the condition is if God is faithful - and the overwhelmingly obvious and clear truth is that He most certainly is !!!

It is the apex of arrogance for any man to think he let God do anything...

You really should follow the logic of your reasoning. Why does any Christian sin at all if it's all about God working his good in you at his will and his faithfulness without any need for us to submit ourselves to his will? That makes your sin his fault because he was not faithful to you to change you.

 

[Ralph-]

What is quenching the Spirit? And why would we want to?

Because we are arrogant and proud as humans. We want to think that we can do it on our own.

Quenching the Spirit is saying," I got this one, I can do it and can do it really well."

Quenching the Spirit is what most of us do HABITUALLY. We go our own 'good' way and quench the DIVINE good that the Spirit directs us in.

99% of us have it figured out that we shouldn't grieve the Spirit(live in sin.) We think we become 'successful' in this area and move onto quenching the Spirit in our own 'good.'

You quench the Spirit when you turn your back on the voice of the Holy Spirit at work in you saying 'walk in this way' and you choose to walk in your own way instead. The Spirit in you is saying, 'turn the other cheek' and you thrust His word behind you and you decide to do it your way and you punch a person in the mouth instead. Or the Spirit in you says, 'be faithful to your spouse' and you thrust His word behind you and you turn to porn instead, or start sniffing around another person's spouse in direct violation of His law.