Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a modern day lens you are relating it to...more important to see it as James writing to Jewish believers and where they are coming from.

Can faith save him? cannot contradict Paul... so important not to read in salvation in to this as often happens.

He is talking to Jewish believers who are having difficulty understanding the role of works since the knew the just will live by faith.

James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. These verses are talking judgment that believers will face.

But once we are saved it is works that will be judged by under the Law of Liberty.

Saved here means to deliver, salvation is not in view, it is judgement at the seat of Christ for believers


Let me paraphrase it this way


These new Jewish believers have asked, “What role does works play?” and James has answered, “Before the judgment seat of Christ, it is works that will be profitable.”

I think I see what your saying,

Again, I see it differently, If sanctification was in context. James would have never said, Can this (faith apart from works) Save you.

He would have never said in this way Abraham was justified (saved) by works also.

Context here is salvation. Not rewards gained by works.

also, I see no place in James chapter 1 or 2 where the jewish people asked. “What role does works play” What I do see is James asking all those who he is written get to to test their faith, ie, is your faith real? Are you hearers of the word only, or are you also doers.

I see it like this.

Paul. Spoke to people who tried to add works to salvation.

Pauls words, we are saved by grace through faith (faith always works. It is not dead) and not of works, lest anyone should be puffed up.

James. Speaking to people who are hearers of the word only, deceiving themselves. His question,

If you CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH (He never said they had faith, He said they CLAIMED to have faith) but have no work, can your faith SAVE YOU? (Again, no mention of rewards) True faith will produce true words (see EPh 2: 10. Paul agrees) if you do not have the works true faith will produce, What good is your claimed faith? It is useless. I can say I have faith until I am blue in the face, if my faith is dead. it has no life to save me, thats why I do not produce works.

I see it like this.

Jews who were steeped in law and DOING heard this new gospel. Which said it is not by works, it is by faith we are saved. So they were FREE from law. And misunderstood paul to be saying we just have to say a prayer and we are saved, thus we can live however we want (be hearers of the word only) because it does not matter, I am saved only (the very thing Fran, and Peter and Ralph and others who have come are against, and what they THINK we teach, because they do not understand what we believe.

So james, as well as Jude and even peter at times (when peter said Pauls words were sometimes hard to understand, I believe this is what he was talking about)

What was james point? The sinners prayer will not save you, if there is no faith, I can believe in god all I want, what good will it do? Even demons believe, It takes true living fath to save us, Those who have true living faith, will have the works paul said we all would have in eph 2: 10, James did not contradict paul/ He just said the same thing paul said in a different context, so it appears to be different.

and ps. I did not learn this from any church or pastor. I studied this on my own, and later found out other people believed this also.

 

[Cee]

I believe the mature fruit will be twelve manner of fruit.
the first nine are from the youth who need nurturing till they mature.

What are the next 3 in your opinion?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By the way, I hope people see Undergrace and myself disagree on something, and are not attacking each other. Like many people claim we do with everyone who disagrees with us.

Then them be seen as the decievers they are.

 

[stonesoffire]

By the way, I hope people see Undergrace and myself disagree on something, and are not attacking each other. Like many people claim we do with everyone who disagrees with us.

Then them be seen as the decievers they are.

good point. Many streams that flow from the river.

 

[preacher4truth]

I believe the mature fruit will be twelve manner of fruit.
the first nine are from the youth who need nurturing till they mature.

There are enough of your ilk who just make up their own doctrine as you're doing above. Just stick with Scripture, not conjecture based upon your own ideology. This is how false doctrine arises.

 

[preacher4truth]

What are the next 3 in your opinion?

Perhaps we can all give our opinion instead of sticking with Scripture and sound doctrine.

 

[7777pinacled]

What are the next 3 in your opinion?

Has anyone here given much thought on this yet?
It would probably be best to fellowship else where in another thread.
Out of respect i wouldnt want to change the topic from faithful tree's full of birds to works of distinguishing each of their nest.
I dont mind walking with anybody here through what ive seen so far.

 

[Cee]

Perhaps we can all give our opinion instead of sticking with Scripture and sound doctrine.

Whether we realize it or not most doctrine is opinion. We can fall into error when we think we are too wise to hear someone’s differing viewpoint. History has taught us this many times. I can go through out church history of people who scoffed at interpretations that started as a man’s opinion that we now call doctrine today.

I can say a lot more about this and the spirit of denominationalism, but I don’t want to completely derail.

 

[preacher4truth]

People suggesting the Spirit will bear three more fruit are out on a limb. It's frankly ridiculous.

God is immutable.

He does not change.

Why? Because he is perfect in essence and being.

To suggest such means he changes for the better, or, for the worst, and neither scenario is good. If the former were true, then he is not God, and thus the latter.

 

[Cee]

Has anyone here given much thought on this yet?
It would probably be best to fellowship else where in another thread.
Out of respect i wouldnt want to change the topic from faithful tree's full of birds to works of distinguishing each of their nest.
I dont mind walking with anybody here through what ive seen so far.

If you start another topic, feel free to PM me about it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Has anyone here given much thought on this yet?
It would probably be best to fellowship else where in another thread.
Out of respect i wouldnt want to change the topic from faithful tree's full of birds to works of distinguishing each of their nest.
I dont mind walking with anybody here through what ive seen so far.

You can start a thread. The thing you say about birds, I see differently. Would discuss this with you.

 

[7777pinacled]

There are enough of your ilk who just make up their own doctrine as you're doing above. Just stick with Scripture, not conjecture based upon your own ideology. This is how false doctrine arises.

So ive heard.
How many months or days was it that a woman carries a child?

 

[stonesoffire]

If you start another topic, feel free to PM me about it.

You beat me to it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Whether we realize it or not most doctrine is opinion. We can fall into error when we think we are too wise to hear someone’s differing viewpoint. History has taught us this many times.

His suggestion and your support are heterodox and short sighted. God is immutable.

I can go through out church history of people who scoffed at interpretations that started as a man’s opinion that we now call doctrine today.

I want you to do this right here since you suggest your knowledge. I will wait for this.

I can say a lot more about this and the spirit of denominationalism, but I don’t want to completely derail.

I think you're saying things that you can't back up.

 

[BillG]

Good stuff Bill! Paul said it like this: forgetting the past while pursuing the UPWARD call of Christ. To obtain what He has already obtained for us!

Cee,

I love reading your posts. You are gentle, humble and kind. I can't recall you ever getting angry or upset or not responding to people, even when you and they disagree.

I'm glad you are back.
I find it very sad that believers have been told to obtain in order to be, rather than be who we are in Jesus.

 

[Cee]

Challenge accepted:

Catholics, the doctrine of the day, had 99 charges placed against it, scoffed at Luther’s doctrine. And killed him for it.
Augustine wrote a little book called the Tale of Two Cities changed his current days doctrine.
Calvin whom it appears to me you hold to was killed for his doctrine.

And I’m just getting started...

Shall I continue?

 

[BillG]

Challenge accepted:

Catholics, the doctrine of the day, had 99 charges placed against it, scoffed at Luther’s doctrine. And killed him for it.
Augustine wrote a little book called the Tale of Two Cities changed his current days doctrine.
Calvin whom it appears to me you hold to was killed for his doctrine.

And I’m just getting started...

Shall I continue?

Ooh challenge?

Whose challenge?

 

[Cee]

Cee,

I love reading your posts. You are gentle, humble and kind. I can't recall you ever getting angry or upset or not responding to people, even when you and they disagree.

I'm glad you are back.
I find it very sad that believers have been told to obtain in order to be, rather than be who we are in Jesus.

Thank you Bill that means a lot to me. I enjoy your posts as well. You have a unique way of connecting my heart to truths in Scripture. Sometimes you use a personal story or a simple illustration, but from what I’ve seen you are a brilliant example of your God given message. Just to love people well.

 

[posthuman]

. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:41-43

have you considered putting this together with how Romans 4:5 says righteousness may be attained . . ? & Philippians 3:9 . .?

 

[7777pinacled]

People suggesting the Spirit will bear three more fruit are out on a limb. It's frankly ridiculous.

God is immutable.

He does not change.

Why? Because he is perfect in essence and being.

To suggest such means he changes for the better, or, for the worst, and neither scenario is good. If the former were true, then he is not God, and thus the latter.

I could talk about trees all day..

Im fairly sure that when mentioning more than nine fruit it was apparent that i was referring to the 12 manner of fruit mentioned in Revelation.