Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Romans 5:8-10 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.


John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life {It is not Eternal if you can Lose it or Forfeit it}, and they will never perish—ever! {THAT makes it PERMANENT} No one will snatch them out of My hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The Father and I are one.”


John 3:36 (HCSB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]The one who believes in the Son has eternal life {That eternal life means it is permanent.}, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. {That word Believes carries a deeper meaning in the Greek, that involves putting your whole trust in what you believe.}



1 John 5:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. {NOTICE: WE are not the GUARDIANS of our Salvation, HE IS.}
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn’t have the Son of God does not have life.



1 John 5:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know the true One. We are in the true One—that is, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. {IT IS NOT ETERNAL if you can Lose it or Forfeit it.}



How is this TRUE? NOT EVERYONE WHO CALL HIM LORD, IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN.


Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

Yes, yes, we all understand that Calvin said this means you can never lose your salvation. Now address that he also said this all means if you are living in a lawless disobedient life you were never saved to begin with. That means you do have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else you were never saved to begin with. So get off the eternal security part of your Calvinist doctrine and address the point of contention here. Please!

People who are 'living in' disobedience are not saved. Calvin said so. He says they were never saved. But people who claim to believe Calvin's teaching about eternal security and how the person who doesn't obey was never saved to begin with contradict that claim by saying you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. Address the point people! Explain your contradicting beliefs. If you can.

 

[UnderGrace]

Please quote a primary source, if your are true researcher with integrity you would.

Yes, yes, we all understand that Calvin said this means you can never lose your salvation. Now address that he also said this all means if you are living in a lawless disobedient life you were never saved to begin with. That means you do have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else you were never saved to begin with. So get off the eternal security part of your Calvinist doctrine and address the point of contention here. Please!

People who are 'living in' disobedience are not saved. Calvin said so. He says they were never saved. But people who claim to believe Calvin's teaching about eternal security and how the person who doesn't obey was never saved to begin with contradict that claim by saying you don't have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. Address the point people! Explain your contradicting beliefs. If you can.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'd suggest putting this dude on ignore. He clearly doesn't read what you say and acts like you don't believe what you've clearly espoused.

Over and over and over.

Then he lies.

Enough already.

thats two of us, It is time to stop giving this person an audience and the floor. Thats for sure, So hope more add him to that list.

 

[Ralph-]

I'd suggest putting this dude on ignore. He clearly doesn't read what you say and acts like you don't believe what you've clearly espoused.

Over and over and over.

Then he lies.

Enough already.

You have not explained how you can believe Calvinistic eternal security that says the true believer must have works and have them to the very end or he was never saved to begin with, and believe that you do not have to have works when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works. Those two beliefs contradict each other. And no one seems willing or able to explain this contradiction. Just a lot of personal attacks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please quote a primary source, if your are true researcher with integrity you would.

Your the second to ask this,, If he gives a source, (I doubt he will) please share.

 

[UnderGrace]

I have not been in this thread for a long while but have spent some time reading the older posts, yeah I see what you mean.

thats two of us, It is time to stop giving this person an audience and the floor. Thats for sure, So hope more add him to that list.

 

[Ralph-]

Please quote a primary source, if your are true researcher with integrity you would.

You're kidding, I'm the one who has to prove Calvinist doctrine to the one's who are defending it?

Truth talk especially. Telling me I don't know Calvinist doctrine and then not explaining anything about what I'm asking to be explained. That tells me he probably has no explanation for this contradiction of beliefs being pushed in this thread. But he is certainly free to explain exactly where he's at about this. But he along with everyone else is not lifting a finger to do that. Just attacking me personally instead. Nice, real nice. Way to go people.

 

[preacher4truth]

thats two of us, It is time to stop giving this person an audience and the floor. Thats for sure, So hope more add him to that list.

His alleged contradiction doesn't exist in OSAS, so his argument is pointless. It's insane to keep going over this fact.

 

[VCO]

I am legally sinless because of Christ's righteousness deposited in my account. I am beyond the condemnation of the law because of Christ's blood that I believe in. And not only that I do not 'live in' a lawless life. If I lived in a lawless life I'd be an unbeliever. I'd be lost when Christ returns. Turns out I'm not doing that. Not gonna be lost for that reason. I'm not doing that.

...

Let's put that Statement to the TEST of Scripture:


1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
[SUP]16 [/SUP] as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.


Even the SPEED LIMIT is an Ordinance of MAN, and even if you break it accidentally, YOU ARE IN VIOLATION OF THIS COMMAND FROM GOD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

His alleged contradiction doesn't exist in OSAS, so his argument is pointless. It's insane to keep going over this fact.

It is obvious he is just here to argue, I love it when he tries to tell a calvanist they do not agree with calvin. He claims he has no fight with him, but everything he says is based on his false view of it. He twists everything people says, then when they make a point, he breaks it apart takes it out of context. Then demands.

Its nuts. It is time to stop.

 

[Ralph-]

His alleged contradiction doesn't exist in OSAS, so his argument is pointless. It's insane to keep going over this fact.

Right, it doesn't exist in Calvinistic once saved always saved eternal security doctrine. I'm saying YOU'RE the one contradicting the Calvin doctrine of eternal security you claim to believe. Explain yourself. You're supposed to be the pulpit authority here about Calvin doctrine. Set me straight. Or admit the departure from classical Calvinistic doctrine that is being pushed in this thread.

 

[posthuman]

______________

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have not been in this thread for a long while but have spent some time reading the older posts, yeah I see what you mean.

Stop feeding him, (by responding) and he will have no audience to do what he keeps trying to do.

 

[Ralph-]

It is obvious he is just here to argue, I love it when he tries to tell a calvanist they do not agree with calvin. He claims he has no fight with him, but everything he says is based on his false view of it. He twists everything people says, then when they make a point, he breaks it apart takes it out of context. Then demands.

Its nuts. It is time to stop.

Hmmm. Still no explanation. Just attacking.

Is it too hard for you to explain? Or can you not do that because you now see how wrong you and others have been in this thread about having to have works to be saved when Jesus returns. Calvin says you have to have them to be saved when Jesus returns or else you were never saved to begin with. And you claim you're on board with his beliefs about eternal security.

 

[stonesoffire]

That's right God does not need proof of your faith. YOU DO. So you can know that you are really saved and prepared for when Jesus comes back. This is called 'making your calling and election sure'-2 Peter 1:10, Hebrews 6:11. We are told to do that-obey so we can know we're really saved-so we can be assured that we have the faith that rescues us from the coming wrath and will go into the kingdom, not into the furnace when Christ returns. - ralph


Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

concerning calling and election:

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence.

2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his precious and wonderful promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, seeing that you have escaped the corruption that is in the world caused by evil desires.

We have all we need in Holy Spirit, but to obtain to benefit? We believe His promises. In other words, we learn to walk by the Word which is Spirit and life.

Now, we are told what graces available..


5 For this very reason, you must make every effort to supplement your faith with moral character, your moral character with knowledge,


2Pe 1:6 your knowledge with self-control, your self-control with endurance, your endurance with godliness,


2Pe 1:7 your godliness with brotherly kindness, and your brotherly kindness with love.


2Pe 1:8 For if you possess these qualities, and if they continue to increase among you, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in attaining a full knowledge of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah.


2Pe 1:9 For the person who lacks these qualities is blind and shortsighted, and has forgotten the cleansing that he has received from his past sins.


2Pe 1:10 So then, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election certain, for if you keep on doing this you will never fail.

growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord.

2Pe 1:11 For in this way you will be generously granted entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus, the Messiah.

generously granted entry. This has to do with how one will be received. Not whether one is rejected or not.

Its always best to look at the whole of the picture. Not throw unrelated scriptures all together.

 

[Ralph-]

Stop feeding him, (by responding) and he will have no audience to do what he keeps trying to do.

It's okay. There have been more lurkers in this thread than I have ever seen before. The truth will find fertile ground among them and come to fruition. The seeds have already been planted. Some of them will come to realize that they must have works when Jesus comes back or they will only be showing that they were never saved to begin with. They will repent and believe and be saved.

What harvest do you people expect from telling people how they live does not matter toward if they are saved or not and does not show either way if they are really saved or not, and because of that they do not repent and truly believe?

 

[UnderGrace]

Well Ralphie,

I will not continue much longer, but it is not a Calvinist doctrine solely and you continue to create a false dichotomy between Calvinism and Free Grace and their respective views on the eternal assurance of the believer and then simplifying what each group really believes.
Secondly if I have had to refer to something that Calvin taught, I went and found where he stated such and cited it on the discussion board.

You can't just say this what Calvinists believe, or Calvin teaches, over and over again without at least some historical piece of evidence to to back you up.
Calvin has a large body of work and people who have studied him in depth have not always interpreted his ideas the same.
And even having said that, Calvin himself modified some of his own beliefs over time.

I do wish you well and hope that you will continue to search out the scriptures to be sure you have it right.

You're kidding, I'm the one who has to prove Calvinist doctrine to the one's who are defending it?

Truth talk especially. Telling me I don't know Calvinist doctrine and then not explaining anything about what I'm asking to be explained. That tells me he probably has not explanation for this contradiction of beliefs being pushed in this thread. But he is certainly free to explain exactly where he's at about this. But he along with everyone else is not lifting a finger to do that. Just attacking me personally instead. Nice, real nice. Way to go people.

 

[stonesoffire]

You made may heart glad today.
Thankyou again for the conversation.

Blessings Always

am waiting pin. A pick in my hand. Lol

private joke...

 

[stonesoffire]

thats two of us, It is time to stop giving this person an audience and the floor. Thats for sure, So hope more add him to that list.

? Are you really asking for this?

 

[Ralph-]

Well Ralphie,

I will not continue much longer, but it is not a Calvinist doctrine solely and you continue to create a false dichotomy between Calvinism and Free Grace and their respective views on the eternal assurance of the believer and then simplifying what each group really believes.
Secondly if I have had to refer to something that Calvin taught, I went and found where he stated such and cited it on the discussion board.

You can't just say this what Calvinists believe, or Calvin teaches, over and over again without at least some historical piece of evidence to to back you up.
Calvin has a large body of work and people who have studied him in depth have not always interpreted his ideas the same.
And even having said that, Calvin himself modified some of his own beliefs over time.

I do wish you well and hope that you will continue to search out the scriptures to be sure you have it right.

Simple question. Did Calvin teach that people who don't endure to the end were never saved to begin with, and those who do are really saved and can not fall away?

If he did how can you people who defend his eternal security doctrine say you do not have to have works and can be disobedient and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back? Pretty simple question. No one seems to be able to explain how they believe Calvin and contradict him at the same time.