Greek and Hebrew

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Depleted

Guest
#21
As much as the bible is a treasure for me I do wish I was able to read and understand it in Hebrew at least. The Hebrew language is fascinating to me, their words are completely different than the English language even just a single letter in their language holds profound meaning and symbolism in it. Can you imagine how sacred that must make the scriptures in their language? Not to say they already aren't but I bet if one is able to read it in their language it would open a whole new depth of the word of God
Okay, I'm just going to say it.

This bothers me. I'm pretty good at judging the intelligence level of people, and I've got you clocked in at roughly 110-120 IQ. aka "above average." I wouldn't be surprised to find out you were 125 even. You might go up to 135 even. (And no need to tell me what it is, if you even know, just saying what bothers me.) I've seen some of the stuff you got interested in and studied. Not my thing, but, generally speaking, I saw the heart of someone who likes studying what he wants to study and is above average at learning that way.

You kind of remind me of my husband in that way, but you also frustrated me to death for the same reason he frustrates me to death. You don't think you're smart!

Yeesh! If God gives you brains, it's a gift. Use them! Just because many people in your life have inferred you can't learn does not mean you CAN'T learn!

Now, seriously. I get not getting languages. But do you know how I know I don't get languages? Three years of Latin class to finish up to Latin II!!! (I needed two years of a foreign language to go to college. Never said I couldn't take three years to get a good two years out of it. lol) Linguistics class in college might as well have been written in Latin. (I can memorize words, so I could catch general drifts. I just could never understand the whole paragraph, so I passed. Barely! But Communications degree, so I had to take Linguistics. And oddly enough it fascinated me. I just didn't get it. :rolleyes:) A permanent Incomplete from my ESL (English as a Second Language) class, because sure enough, I got the English! I didn't get the second language! Incompletes are supposed to turn into Fs if what wasn't completed didn't get completed by the next semester, but my teacher liked me, because she saw how hard I tried. I was the Secretary of the Spanish Club but couldn't get Spanish. Most of my friends were Hispanic, and they interpreted for me. Became friends with most of the Spanish teachers in college, so thought I'd take Spanish. I did. Poor Dr. Martinez! I couldn't even say his name right. Should have gotten an F, but he gave me a C for trying so hard!

That's how I know I can't do other languages. It bothers me that you're so young and so smart yet think you can't either! Do you have proof you can't? Real proof? Or have you been listening to all those people who told you that you wouldn't amount to much? Because DANGIT!

You already have amounted to much! It's not easy to learn a language, but I think you've got the brains for it, if you would just stop listening to those Nattering Nabobs of Negativity still nesting in your head years after they have no voice in your life!

Dang it, Blain! Stop thinking you're dumb. You ain't!

And as often as I say I'm dumb. I'm not really dumb. I'm simply dumb about some things. (Blasted Internet comes down to language in the form of "coding," and I can't construct a web page on my own, because I don't get linguistics. Science. Love it. Not good at it. Math. Stink at math UNTIL you turn those arbitrary numbers into money. Money I get. Meaningless numbers, I don't. So give me statistics and accounting, but don't give me algebra or trig.
:mad:)

And, just so you know, hubby gets this "pep talk" as needed too. The stupid Nabobs really cling for years. The first thing you have to learn is they were wrong.

The second thing you have to learn is they're still wrong!

The third thing you have to do is believe that!

Keep remembering that until you believe it!

You. are. NOT. stupid. You are ABOVE average in intelligence! Probably not a genius, but smarter than 50% of everybody is no slouch! And God gave you strong arms to help others? I believe that. God gave you the personality to listen? I believe that. You are gifted in the ministry of helps. (Don't know if you know that, but that is true too. If you don't know it, think it over, study it, and you'll get the light bulb moment when you realize God gave you that too. lol) God has given you much. One other thing he gave you that you don't seem to realize he did give you -- smarts! Believe the other and then you can start believing that.

(PS to, Steph, if you ever read this. Keep telling him this over and over again until he believes it. That, I hope, is your life long mission.)

'kay? (Weird to get yelled at for something good, isn't it?)
 
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Depleted

Guest
#22
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Rom 8:16)

occasionally, even slight knowledge of another language comes in handy. :)
Google's easier.

Actually after all those years of Latin, and a semester of Spanish, I did get "The Spirit testifies" something "ours" something-something-something "God."

Should the UN hire me as a translator?
 
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Depleted

Guest
#23
Ahhhh ... Veo que esta's usando mi tabla de conversio'n ? :eek:

"Where is my table of conversation/conversion?"

(I'm good with this translating stuff, aren't I? lol)
 
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Depleted

Guest
#24
I love how you drop your humor in Lynn ;), mostly always a good chuckle...No I will not be learning any new language, I will just do what I have always done and rely on the Holy Spirit, He has not failed me yet :)...

I just see so many writing their post in Scripture and using names from the Hebrew, but I must admit I can not read through their long post because my mind can not understand it , and I just thought " Do I have to learn like them to understand what they are saying "...Feel bad saying that really because what they write is God`s word, but my mind can not get it so I scroll past their post and probably miss out on quite a bit of teaching...Oh well, I am now happy to know that it is not a necessity to learn greek or Hebrew...xox...
I take those threads like I take Post Human when he gets into one of his scientific thoughts. 99% of the time, I do not get his formulas, but if I read the whole post I do catch what he was saying enough to make it worth reading.

It's about the same level of skill I have translating. You really don't want me to translate non-English for you, but I get surprisingly close to catching the gist. And, frankly, no one has to know I'm this bad at language. I could always read quietly along to get what I can out of it, and miss the rest.

I'm still enjoying the freedom of not having it bother me that I don't get something, so when I speak up and ask, they usually make it so I can understand what they're saying. Which, if it isn't me being nosy, (which it usually is), honestly, is so everyone else doesn't have to admit they didn't get it either. OR feel smart because they did. lol

I'm also the women who wants to listen right outside the door to a men's meeting, because I want to know what the guys are talking about when women aren't around.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
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#25
Understand we aren't reading "the original Bible." We're reading a translation. They didn't speak Brit-speak, Canadian-speak, Aussie-speak, or Ameri-speak. So the dudes who did the translating tried their very best with the information they could find to translate.

But the world is getting more advanced than it was. I admire Jerome. He was one of the first, (if not the first) to translate the Bible from original language into his language. And his language was Latin. He made what we now call the Vulgate. Can you imagine translating the whole Bible? (I can only imagine it would take me a week to translate a word. lol)

But he got some stuff wrong, because Ancient Hebrew was old even back in his day. (Like reading Middle English to us.) And even the Greek was losing the same meanings. (Like reading "awful" in KJV. It means "full of awe." Not we mean when we say, "awful.") One of the words he got wrong was "repent." He translated it to "penance." See the problem? The RCC committed to "penance" way back then.

But Jerome didn't have planes, trains, and automobiles to go around the known world to source out what other scholars thought and learned from their studies, so I admire him.

Fast forward to your country in the 1600's and King James wanting a new translation. I also admire the scholars who worked on that translation. They did use earlier translations, along with the some manuscripts they found, so they had more sources than Jerome, (including Jerome. lol) But how do you like your bunnies?

Did you know bunnies are from your neck of the woods? We imported them back when we belong to England. Can't see any great harm in that, because thems good eats, and fluffy and cute, but the poor Aussies did the same thing, and that didn't work out so well for them. All the world (except for the polar caps) have bunnies now. BUT the middle east didn't have bunnies back in the days of clean and unclean food listing in the Bible. According to my understanding, even if I went kosher, I could still eat rabbit, except the KJV translators didn't know the Middle East had a rodent England didn't have, so they translated it to what they did know -- bunnies. (Okay, rabbit. But I like bunny better. lol)

Now we know. And the translating continues.

Nephilim. You know. "The giants." Well, that might not be giant. It might be "feller." (No idea what a feller is, but I do remember looking it up once and getting it. I just didn't care enough to remember, because I like the mystery of the word "feller" better.) Nephilim was/is (haven't kept up to see if anyone found the answer yet) a mystery word now. What I read about it came from the 19th or 20th century, and archaeologists are still sorting through sites, so could have learn more since. But back then the word was only found four times in all ancient literature -- twice in the Bible (before and after the flood) and twice elsewhere. Since the languages are gone for so long, they have to keep guessing until they can figure out for sure in context.

So, translations aren't always exact. The amazing part is notice the exceptions? Who cares if it was a giant or a feller? Who cares if it was a rabbit or a rodent? (Yeah. I know. Rabbits are rodents.) All in all, God's word has been given to us in a translation we can understand without having to know original languages.

I said before, I can't learn languages. I'm fine reading the Bible without them. And, if I don't get a verse, or think I might be missing something? I'm on eSword, so I just flicky-flicky to another version to see if it's different. It works for me. I'm no Bible scholar. I just know which Bible scholars I trust. So, I read commentaries from them to pick up what I'm missing.

BUT do you know when it becomes good to learn original languages? If you're one of those smart people, (and I'm not), who can actually understand Van Til, or Calvin, or Luther, or Hus or whoever. Because, seriously? Those dudes did footnotes galore! Read one of there books, and half the page -- every page -- is footnotes. And the footnotes are in the languages they understood. Greek, Latin, Ancient Hebrew, and German.

I'm not one of those smart people. I'm fine with that. I married one. He wasn't fine not knowing, so he tried to study to learn the languages, because he really wanted to understand those footnotes.

THAT's when it's time to learn a language, (if you can. :rolleyes:) As long as you know it's a translation, so it might not be 100% accurate, but you can look up the words in a concordance if worse comes to worse, you're good on Brit-speak. (And pretty good with Ameri-speak, since you can understand me most of the time. lol) Which concordance?

Ah, now! That's Argument #2! lol

English is fine for normal reading -
and caution should be exercised when working outside of a language you understand.




Trying to pick around at various Greek and Hebrew words, without actually studying Greek and Hebrew, may yield more confusion than clarity.

1. Above it's posited the KJV uses the word "rabbit", but that in the Hebrew it wasn't really talking about a rabbit, and therefore we need to focus more on the original Hebrew.
Well... maybe, and maybe not.

A. The Hebrew word is arnebeth
B. The KJV actually uses the word "hare" for this word, and if we study a number of different sources, we seem to find there are several varieties of the hare which the word arnebeth "may" have been referring to, or it may have been a different rodent altogether which was similar to the hare... there still seems to be a lack of clarity on this.

(Some even believe this confusion about whether or not arnebeth is a hare, is due not to a problem in translations, but due to a misunderstanding of physiology by the ancient Hebrews leading to a wrong description of it in the text. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm pointing out there is a lot of disagreement on this matter.)

C. Therefore, it doesn't seem to be at all clear that this particular word is necessarily a bad translation - we have to first establish arnebeth is absolutely not some variety of hare, and then we have to determine whether "hare" might still be a reasonable translation, in 1600, for English speaking people, for some animal which is similar to a hare.

2. Above it's posited that the word "nephilim" (which is often translated giant) is sometimes translated as "feller" - and "feller" is just entirely weird and confusing, because nobody even knows what a "feller" would be.
Well... ummm... no.
A. The word "nephilim" is in fact NEVER translated as "feller" in the KJV... not ever.
B. Where we do see the word "feller" appear in the KJV, it is in the context of trees, and "felling" trees... and so the meaning of "feller", though antiquated, is extremely easy to understand from the context.

There is certainly some disagreement about the word "nephilim"... but it's never translated as "feller", and "feller" itself is perfectly understandable within it's context.


3. My point is NOT to defend any English translation as being perfect, and it is NOT to pick on Depleted, who I believe is a very sincere believer.

My point is simply to say:

A. We CAN INDEED understand the Bible PRETTY WELL, by using a GOOD TRANSLATION, and simply reading it carefully, in context, and comparing scripture with scripture.
B. Going back to Greek and Hebrew, without great care, might just lead to more confusion than clarity.




Conclusion:


1. It should be perfectly fine to use a good translation: if you employ a good study of context, as well as cross referencing of scripture, you should be able to arrive at all the principles, doctrines, and teachings of the faith.

2. Picking around at the Greek and Hebrew without a great deal of caution, and care, might yield more confusion than clarity.


(Keep in mind that many cults get their bad doctrine by retranslating certain words poorly, or referring back to Greek and Hebrew in very sporadic and confusing ways... we don't want to accidentally do the same.)

3. If you have the time and acumen to study the ancient languages, or to simply pick through the Greek and Hebrew very slowly and carefully, then I absolutely recommend doing that.
We will always be blessed by more study of the Bible, and we should study as much, and in whatever ways, we are able.
 
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notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
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113
#26
Ahhhh ... Veo que esta's usando mi tabla de conversio'n ? :eek:

lol! Google translate? :rolleyes:

i don't know Portuguese, but i studied Spanish, and they're similar enough i could figure it out. :eek:
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
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#27
"Where is my table of conversation/conversion?"

(I'm good with this translating stuff, aren't I? lol)
the Google tried to help him. lol

my Spanish is pretty poor, but still better than Google's. :D
 
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Depleted

Guest
#28
English is fine for normal reading -
and caution should be exercised when working outside of a language you understand.




Trying to pick around at various Greek and Hebrew words, without actually studying Greek and Hebrew, may yield more confusion than clarity.

1. Above it's posited the KJV uses the word "rabbit", but that in the Hebrew it wasn't really talking about a rabbit, and therefore we need to focus more on the original Hebrew.
Well... maybe, and maybe not.

A. The Hebrew word is arnebeth
B. The KJV actually uses the word "hare" for this word, and if we study a number of different sources, we seem to find there are several varieties of the hare which the word arnebeth "may" have been referring to, or it may have been a different rodent altogether which was similar to the hare... there still seems to be a lack of clarity on this.

(Some even believe this confusion about whether or not arnebeth is a hare, is due not to a problem in translations, but due to a misunderstanding of physiology by the ancient Hebrews leading to a wrong description of it in the text. I'm not saying I agree with this, but I'm pointing out there is a lot of disagreement on this matter.)

C. Therefore, it doesn't seem to be at all clear that this particular word is necessarily a bad translation - we have to first establish arnebeth is absolutely not some variety of hare, and then we have to determine whether "hare" might still be a reasonable translation, in 1600, for English speaking people, for some animal which is similar to a hare.

2. Above it's posited that the word "nephilim" (which is often translated giant) is sometimes translated as "feller" - and "feller" is just entirely weird and confusing, because nobody even knows what a "feller" would be.
Well... ummm... no.
A. The word "nephilim" is in fact NEVER translated as "feller" in the KJV... not ever.
B. Where we do see the word "feller" appear in the KJV, it is in the context of trees, and "felling" trees... and so the meaning of "feller", though antiquated, is extremely easy to understand from the context.

There is certainly some disagreement about the word "nephilim"... but it's never translated as "feller", and "feller" itself is perfectly understandable within it's context.


3. My point is NOT to defend any English translation as being perfect, and it is NOT to pick on Depleted, who I believe is a very sincere believer.

My point is simply to say:

A. We CAN INDEED understand the Bible PRETTY WELL, by using a GOOD TRANSLATION, and simply reading it carefully, in context, and comparing scripture with scripture.
B. Going back to Greek and Hebrew, without great care, might just lead to more confusion than clarity.




Conclusion:


1. It should be perfectly fine to use a good translation: if you employ a good study of context, as well as cross referencing of scripture, you should be able to arrive at all the principles, doctrines, and teachings of the faith.

2. Picking around at the Greek and Hebrew without a great deal of caution, and care, might yield more confusion than clarity.


(Keep in mind that many cults get their bad doctrine by retranslating certain words poorly, or referring back to Greek and Hebrew in very sporadic and confusing ways... we don't want to accidentally do the same.)

3. If you have the time and acumen to study the ancient languages, or to simply pick through the Greek and Hebrew very slowly and carefully, then I absolutely recommend doing that.
We will always be blessed by more study of the Bible, and we should study as much, and in whatever ways, we are able.
Pssst, we're agreeing.


I just don't say it as logically as you. And the only reason the bunnies bothered me was because they're tasty. Part of my diet, before I became a believer, and I was the kid who worried about dietary laws, before hitting The Book of Acts. (Peter's food meltdown.)

Ultimately, you betcha! Translations are great! We lose nothing of importance if we're not scholars. Thank the Lord, he's been getting scholar to study and translate all of it for we monoglots. (Not really a word, but if polyglot means someone who speaks more than two languages, than monoglots should be the word for those of us who only speak one language. And the bilinguals already have a good word for them. lol)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#30
Pssst, we're agreeing.


I just don't say it as logically as you. And the only reason the bunnies bothered me was because they're tasty. Part of my diet, before I became a believer, and I was the kid who worried about dietary laws, before hitting The Book of Acts. (Peter's food meltdown.)

Ultimately, you betcha! Translations are great! We lose nothing of importance if we're not scholars. Thank the Lord, he's been getting scholar to study and translate all of it for we monoglots. (Not really a word, but if polyglot means someone who speaks more than two languages, than monoglots should be the word for those of us who only speak one language. And the bilinguals already have a good word for them. lol)


Pssst... I eat bunnies too.


I just don't say it out loud, because a single man can't afford to upset all the single girls by admitting he cooks and eats any cute thing that wanders into his yard.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,584
1,044
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#32
Pssst... I eat bunnies too.


I just don't say it out loud, because a single man can't afford to upset all the single girls by admitting he cooks and eats any cute thing that wanders into his yard.
this is potentially good news...

how do you feel about roast bear? :rolleyes:
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,173
2,536
113
#33
Okay, I'm just going to say it.

This bothers me. I'm pretty good at judging the intelligence level of people, and I've got you clocked in at roughly 110-120 IQ. aka "above average." I wouldn't be surprised to find out you were 125 even. You might go up to 135 even. (And no need to tell me what it is, if you even know, just saying what bothers me.) I've seen some of the stuff you got interested in and studied. Not my thing, but, generally speaking, I saw the heart of someone who likes studying what he wants to study and is above average at learning that way.

You kind of remind me of my husband in that way, but you also frustrated me to death for the same reason he frustrates me to death. You don't think you're smart!

Yeesh! If God gives you brains, it's a gift. Use them! Just because many people in your life have inferred you can't learn does not mean you CAN'T learn!

Now, seriously. I get not getting languages. But do you know how I know I don't get languages? Three years of Latin class to finish up to Latin II!!! (I needed two years of a foreign language to go to college. Never said I couldn't take three years to get a good two years out of it. lol) Linguistics class in college might as well have been written in Latin. (I can memorize words, so I could catch general drifts. I just could never understand the whole paragraph, so I passed. Barely! But Communications degree, so I had to take Linguistics. And oddly enough it fascinated me. I just didn't get it. :rolleyes:) A permanent Incomplete from my ESL (English as a Second Language) class, because sure enough, I got the English! I didn't get the second language! Incompletes are supposed to turn into Fs if what wasn't completed didn't get completed by the next semester, but my teacher liked me, because she saw how hard I tried. I was the Secretary of the Spanish Club but couldn't get Spanish. Most of my friends were Hispanic, and they interpreted for me. Became friends with most of the Spanish teachers in college, so thought I'd take Spanish. I did. Poor Dr. Martinez! I couldn't even say his name right. Should have gotten an F, but he gave me a C for trying so hard!

That's how I know I can't do other languages. It bothers me that you're so young and so smart yet think you can't either! Do you have proof you can't? Real proof? Or have you been listening to all those people who told you that you wouldn't amount to much? Because DANGIT!

You already have amounted to much! It's not easy to learn a language, but I think you've got the brains for it, if you would just stop listening to those Nattering Nabobs of Negativity still nesting in your head years after they have no voice in your life!

Dang it, Blain! Stop thinking you're dumb. You ain't!

And as often as I say I'm dumb. I'm not really dumb. I'm simply dumb about some things. (Blasted Internet comes down to language in the form of "coding," and I can't construct a web page on my own, because I don't get linguistics. Science. Love it. Not good at it. Math. Stink at math UNTIL you turn those arbitrary numbers into money. Money I get. Meaningless numbers, I don't. So give me statistics and accounting, but don't give me algebra or trig.
:mad:)

And, just so you know, hubby gets this "pep talk" as needed too. The stupid Nabobs really cling for years. The first thing you have to learn is they were wrong.

The second thing you have to learn is they're still wrong!

The third thing you have to do is believe that!

Keep remembering that until you believe it!

You. are. NOT. stupid. You are ABOVE average in intelligence! Probably not a genius, but smarter than 50% of everybody is no slouch! And God gave you strong arms to help others? I believe that. God gave you the personality to listen? I believe that. You are gifted in the ministry of helps. (Don't know if you know that, but that is true too. If you don't know it, think it over, study it, and you'll get the light bulb moment when you realize God gave you that too. lol) God has given you much. One other thing he gave you that you don't seem to realize he did give you -- smarts! Believe the other and then you can start believing that.

(PS to, Steph, if you ever read this. Keep telling him this over and over again until he believes it. That, I hope, is your life long mission.)

'kay? (Weird to get yelled at for something good, isn't it?)
LOL Oh Lynn if I could print this and just rub it in my families face saying see? see? I need to get a written document of my intelligence and have it saying approved by Lynn lol. I do admit that it is difficult for me to see things about myself, it's so easy for me to see what others do not see in themselves but when it comes to my own being I am not very good at it and the enemy uses that against quite often.

Like I said the Hebrew language is fascinating to me but you know how some people can excel in certain subjects like science or math and yet even with all their intelligence have that one subject that is their Achilles heel? Languages has always been like that for me. And no worries sometimes I need a good yelling to really be able to understand something, honestly you seem to know me better than I know myself lol
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,173
2,536
113
#34
You know there were times when I actually had to use google translate for the hebrew language, There was a point in time when i was researching the difference between Jesus's name in hebrew and in english and I was pretty surprised how profound his name is in hebrew, I mean honestly in their language his name is not just a name it's sacred like so much so that we shouldn't even dare speak it and yet in his love and his grace allows us to freely.

Google translate is my best friend when it comes to these things but the issue is that it can only give you a rough view of the true meaning and profoundness of the word your translating the rest you have to search for.
 
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renewed_hope

Guest
#35
this is potentially good news...

how do you feel about roast bear? :rolleyes:
As long as he leaves Winne The Pooh alone....he just might be okay:p
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,173
2,536
113
#36
As long as he leaves Winne The Pooh alone....he just might be okay:p
You know I have always wanted to know what the heck a Pooh bear is, no none has ever been able to tell me.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,713
113
#37
You know I have always wanted to know what the heck a Pooh bear is, no none has ever been able to tell me.
Winnie-the-Pooh, also called Pooh Bear, is a fictional anthropomorphic teddy bear created by English author A. A. Milne. :)[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
 
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renewed_hope

Guest
#39
You know I have always wanted to know what the heck a Pooh bear is, no none has ever been able to tell me.
He's only the cutest, most lovable bear around...oh and he loves his honey❤:eek:. I had a stuffed one growing up
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
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South
adelaiderevival.com
#40
Unlike the Greek HEBREW was a sacred language in which the
very alphabet itself used pictograms combined to make words.
In these pictograms / words are symbolic references to God,
Saviour, sin, death, Messiah and so on.


[video]https://youtu.be/EsccqG752bc[/video]