Not By Works

[Budman]

Are you living the life in the passages I cited? I'm not. I sin, but I am not living in a pattern of unrepentant, unchanging sin. Are you?

Does me putting a band aid on a cut make me a practicing physician? Of course not, even though I sometimes do what a physician does. So it is with sin. It is only the practicing sinner who is not saved and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Which are you? The practicing sinner, or the saint who still sins in moments of weakness?

Those who practice sin as a way of life are not born again. They will not inherit the kingdom. They show by their life they are not saved.

You've admitted that you still sin, Ralph. The only contention is the total

Lets assume you commit only 5 sins a day starting today (which is being extremely conservative).

5 sins times 7 days = 35; times a month = 140; times a year = 1680. Lets assume you live another 20 years - that comes out to 33,600 sins (Which doesn't take into account all of the sins you've committed since you became a Christian).

That looks like the very definition of one who "practices" a lifestyle of sin.

Also, the Bible says a believer will not, nor can, sin. (1 John 3:9). How do you explain that, Ralph?

 

[dcontroversal]

Here is at least one mistake "Ralph-" is making here, not sure how many have caught it.

He keeps saying if we don't have works when Jesus comes, then we won't get into the kingdom.

Well, that's not exactly true.

First, he aims this nonsense at believers. Please ponder this, especially newer believers.

That's his first mistake because it doesn't apply to true converts. All true believers have works and evidence of conversion.

"Ralph-" and other false teachers like him make the descriptive language of God in Scripture concerning believers into something they have to start doing. Believers are already doing this, God described them so we would know, so we could take comfort and warning to examine.

So "Ralph-" spends a lot of time calling believer's lost, conflating sheep with goats, separating sheep from sheep, sifting wheat from wheat, instead of wheat from chaff, while telling us all how we must behave as he does so many things which contradict his own warnings.

We've numerous times called "Ralph-" on this, his misrepresentations, lies, twisting of words, bearing false witness. Obviously he thinks these warnings only apply to others, he sees himself as exempt and his behavior, unchecked, lends logically to this conclusion.

His second mistake is not recognizing that believers are already in God's kingdom; Colossians 1:13-14. At the return of Christ believers will enter fully into this eternal kingdom. As of right now, we are in his kingdom while here on earth.

It is the little, subtle mistakes like these that false teachers make which trouble and deceive others.

And to say one does not fully possess salvation yet even though verb tense, verbiage and context all attest to the fact that a genuine believer currenty possesses eternal life and salvation at the moment of belief

 

[dcontroversal]

These 1st 7 because they reveal todays gospel of salvation:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

These because they reveal our salvation is by GRACE thru FAITH. And not because of our law keeping or personal works.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8 By grace are ye saved through faith not of yourselves it is the gift of God

9 Not of works lest any man should boast

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

All the above show we access Gods GRACE. Thru our FAITH, placed in the redemptive sin atoning sacrifice, found in the death, burial & resurrection of Jesus the Christ!

Amen Flying Dove I agree....cool name ..sounds like a name used in a 70's Kung Fu movie hah peace

 

[Budman]

I've been a bit pre-occupied and failed to welcome budman who seems to be an older member than me (not age) and haven't had the pleasure. Welcome!

Thank-you!

The old story: Was here quite a bit, took a long hiatus, now I'm back - and not much has changed!

 

[TruthTalk]

well its biblically based

but if you are born again
and saved by the blood of Jesus if you were to die at any point

and you say your works can remove you from Gods gift to all who believe after getting a new heart from God
and a new mind from God and being a new creature
if you continue to live
then youre saying works "keep" you saved by definition...

because you imply it is up to what you do to keep you saved

Agree Mcgee, "by grace we are saved; it is a gift of God", lest any man should boast. And we were created "unto good works", that God ordained the we should walk in them.

You cannot "mix" salvation by grace with your good works or else grace is no longer grace. And the good works we do are ordained by God that we should walk in them. Christians have many good works but they do not add one second to your eternal salvation. If you add works to your eternal salvation your are boasting in your works, and you have fallen from grace. Nice post Mcgee

Ephesians 2:8-10

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 "[/SUP]Not of works", lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Chester]

well its biblically based

but if you are born again
and saved by the blood of Jesus if you were to die at any point

and you say your works can remove you from Gods gift to all who believe after getting a new heart from God
and a new mind from God and being a new creature
if you continue to live
then youre saying works "keep" you saved by definition...

because you imply it is up to what you do to keep you saved

It is really hard to follow what you are trying to say in post 49417 - I think you are trying to say that if a person believes it is possible to lose their salvation, then you are saying that this person implies or believes that it is works that keep you saved.

Preposterous! I believe a person is saved by grace through faith. They stay by grace through faith. If a person loses faith and the grace of God, they are no longer saved. Where does works come into that equation?

I do believe very strongly in the importance of works and that a true faith will have works to some degree, but it is the faith and not the works that save a person and that keep them saved.

Now how can you get from my statement of belief above that I "imply" that works keep a person saved?

 

[Shamah]

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Yahshua/Jesus own words are in agreement:

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:39, “You search the Scriptures, because you think you possess everlasting life in them. And these are the ones that bear witness of Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.” [/FONT]







[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]

 

[Chester]

the fact remains, if anything you do or not do causes your salvation to be forfiet, then you have to earn your salvation.

So do you see "losing faith" as something you "do"?

If "losing faith" is something you do then "gaining faith" is also something you do - and thus when you get saved you earn your salvation.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

It is really hard to follow what you are trying to say in post 49417 - I think you are trying to say that if a person believes it is possible to lose their salvation, then you are saying that this person implies or believes that it is works that keep you saved.

Preposterous! I believe a person is saved by grace through faith. They stay by grace through faith. If a person loses faith and the grace of God, they are no longer saved. Where does works come into that equation?

I do believe very strongly in the importance of works and that a true faith will have works to some degree, but it is the faith and not the works that save a person and that keep them saved.

Now how can you get from my statement of belief above that I "imply" that works keep a person saved?

well i agree that God makes you a new creature

it will show...
not only manifesting as good works (the Holy spirit is truely powerful)

but a change of inner man/woman

at the very core you will be transformed
even your desires that you once loved and took pleasure in

you now hate and pray to be delivered from if you so much as stumble (or are even tempted)


but to say this new creature...
can forfeit their salvation

then you are saying it is up to yourself
to NOT forfeit salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So do you see "losing faith" as something you "do"?

If "losing faith" is something you do then "gaining faith" is also something you do - and thus when you get saved you earn your salvation.

I do not see losing faith, You do NOT lose faith in someone who NEVER lets you down.

And Jesus himself said, it is the WORK of God we trust him (ie, it is uip to him to prove his faithfulness, and we will never let us down)

so if you think you can lose faith, I doubt your faith is in God. it is in your ability to keep yourself trusting God, not Gods ability to keep you from falling.

 

[TruthTalk]

There are many people on this thread who "twist" the scriptures to serve their own false gospel = a false christ. God bless the children who trust in Jesus for their eternal salvation, not their wonderful works. "Crown Him with Many Crown."

Quote: from Jazz Feylynn
"If a tongue twister's tongue could twist, how many twists would the tongue twister's tongue twist while their tongue was a twisting.” ..........

2Corinthians3:15-18
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

So do you see "losing faith" as something you "do"?

If "losing faith" is something you do then "gaining faith" is also something you do - and thus when you get saved you earn your salvation.

It is incumbent upon each person to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. This repentance and belief is the same for everybody, for we repent of our rebellion against God, and believe in the shed righteous blood of Christ to be sufficient to pay our sin debt, that we may be reconciled to God, and attain to life ever after following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age. In this way, no one has grounds for boasting. "Who do you say I am?"

 

[TruthTalk]

It is incumbent upon each person to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. This repentance and belief is the same for everybody, for we repent of our rebellion against God, and believe in the shed righteous blood of Christ to be sufficient to pay our sin debt, that we may be reconciled to God, and attain to life ever after following the resurrection and judgment of all at the end of this age. In this way, no one has grounds for boasting. "Who do you say I am?"

"Who do you say I am?"

29) "And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, 'Thou art the Christ.",
30) And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.…Mark8:29.....

 

[BillG]

There are many people on this thread who "twist" the scriptures to serve their own false gospel = a false christ. God bless the children who trust in Jesus for their eternal salvation, not their wonderful works. "Crown Him with Many Crown."

Quote: from Jazz Feylynn
"If a tongue twister's tongue could twist, how many twists would the tongue twister's tongue twist while their tongue was a twisting.” ..........

2Corinthians3:15-18
15) Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16) But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Hi TT,

I am going to be honest here and just so you know this is not getting at you or anyone else. And I may get slated here.
My thoughts are that in the main people are not twisting scripture to serve their own false Gospel.
People are using scripture because they believe in a false gospel, which is what they have heard and been taught.

So to them it's not a false gospel at all but the true gospel.
Just like our gospel is false and theirs is not.

In a sense I think when Paul, John and so on wrote to the churches concerning the false Gospel it was twofold.

Just my thoughts on the following.

Firstly to the believers, do not be deceived and also to those who had been deceived.
This is the truth, anything against that don't listen, those who have been deceived listen, this is the true gospel.

Walk in it, if not you fall foul of the grace of God.

 

[stonesoffire]

I do not see losing faith, You do NOT lose faith in someone who NEVER lets you down.

And Jesus himself said, it is the WORK of God we trust him (ie, it is uip to him to prove his faithfulness, and we will never let us down)

so if you think you can lose faith, I doubt your faith is in God. it is in your ability to keep yourself trusting God, not Gods ability to keep you from falling.

amen...we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loves us, and gave His life for us. We aren't orphans now. We have a Father too.

 

[Magenta]

"Who do you say I am?"

29) "And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, 'Thou art the Christ.",
30) And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.…Mark8:29.....

Now we are to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

The internet makes that easier than ever before

 

[stonesoffire]

"Who do you say I am?"

29) "And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, 'Thou art the Christ.",
30) And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.…Mark8:29.....

Was listening to a song called I AM this morning before coming online. I AM....holding on to you. I AM....holding on to you. In the middle of the storm, I AM holding on to you.

Good thing huh? The wind can get really strong and blow us away if He isn't.

 

[VCO]

No, I understand what you people have been saying and I'm sure I've been representing it correctly. You want to keep the eternal security part of Calvinism but discard the part about the life that proves you have it. That is what you people have been saying. That's not Calvinism. That's the new doctrine of eternal security consuming the church to it's destruction. The final destruction of the church from which we will not recover. Either admit you have departed from classical Calvinist teaching and embraced this new abhorrent eternal security teaching or come back to your Calvinist roots.

What I don't get is why ardent Calvinists, even partial Calvinists aren't defending their doctrinal beliefs. Mailmandan may be the only one who has been. And he's not even a preacher.

Let's face it, YOU DO NOT PERSONALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT CALVINISTS BELIEVE. You ONLY KNOW what others have told you that Calvinists believe, and it is full of ERRORS and ASSUMPTIONS.

 

[maxwel]

I know what Calvinists believe.

They believe I was predestined, before the foundation of the world, to disbelieve in Calvinism.

They may be right.

 

[stonesoffire]

Thank-you!

The old story: Was here quite a bit, took a long hiatus, now I'm back - and not much has changed!

I've heard that from other people too Budman, but my experience is different. I went to another forum, but just didn't fit in. The only other forum that I did was churchusa.com but it has changed. So coming here I've found my tribe.

Interesting thing though, is I am Pentecostal, not Baptist but am in agreement with the Baptists doctrine, or at least some of it. I don't really investigate doctrine, just the scriptures.

I love this site now!