Not By Works

[Shamah]

ok shamah

if you want an answer

then what do you believe it means to obey Him
and in a way that leads to salvation?


so i know we are talking of the same thing

To obey His words. Faith, mercy, love, truth, etc.

Yahshua/Jesus words are the standar to deny that is to deny what He and YHWH say:

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Here is my answer; one can not by their own actions, myself included be found worthyu to enter, all need mercy, and in the same manner the unmerited mercy Yah offers does not make obedience obselete, but should drive us to seek obedience.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

plaese re read my post I did answer. Right were it says "here is my answer"

you are the one who did not answer me.

im not getting it...

maybe youre asking if anyone sins even once is Jesus still their advocate?


ya

those who have faith in Him will recieve what the word says they will

 

[Shamah]

Is this true:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

and is this true:

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

 

[NoNameMcgee]

still not seeing your point

 

[Shamah]

im not getting it...

maybe youre asking if anyone sins even once is Jesus still their advocate?


ya

those who have faith in Him will recieve what the word says they will

Here is my answer; one can not by their own actions, myself included be found worthyu to enter, all need mercy, and in the same manner the unmerited mercy Yah offers does not make obedience obselete, but should drive us to seek obedience.

Every human has committed atleast one sin worthy of death.

The blood of Yahshua/Jesus grants mercy for those that are in Messiah.

This mercy does not in any way shape or form make obeience obselete.

 

[mailmandan]

Amen
well said...

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ezekiel 36:26

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.”

He provides

Amen! Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision (John 6:44,65). Unless the Father draws us in and enables us, we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Amen! Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision (John 6:44,65). Unless the Father draws us in and enables us, we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

true

well said dan

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”[/FONT]

 

[NoNameMcgee]

shamah you seem to understand what it is that makes someone deserve something like hell...

but im not sure if you see that it is Him and His imputed righteousness that needs to save you

wether you have a little fruit

or too much to count

 

[gb9]

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”


1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


John/Yahanan 14:26, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”


Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”

Jesus is not speaking about the law of Moses. he said- " a new command I give you , love one another as I have loved you "

He also layed out in the Sermon on the Mount on how a Christ follower should live. ( no mention of Sabbath ).

John said in his first letter that the Commands are to believe in the name of the Son and love one another. ( no Sabbath )

so there you go. different name, same Hebrew roots fail.

 

[Shamah]

shamah you seem to understand what it is that makes someone deserve something like hell...

but im not sure if you see that it is Him and His imputed righteousness that needs to save you

wether you have a little fruit

or too much to count

anyone in Messiah will do as He says.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]



I understand what the Messiah says, anyone who says different is not in truth, as Yahshua/Jesus is the "one we must hear and obey"

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]שָׁמַע[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."[/FONT]

Is this true:

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done* righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced* evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

and is this true:

Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”

anyone in Messiah will do as He says.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]

 

[preacher4truth]

...it is our responsibility to choose to believe

No lost man can "choose to believe."

 

[Shamah]

Jesus is not speaking about the law of Moses. he said- " a new command I give you , love one another as I have loved you "

He also layed out in the Sermon on the Mount on how a Christ follower should live. ( no mention of Sabbath ).

John said in his first letter that the Commands are to believe in the name of the Son and love one another. ( no Sabbath )

so there you go. different name, same Hebrew roots fail.

Yeah the Law of "Moses" was mediated by the Levite priests. Yahshua is the mediator since His shed blood, the Law of YHWH is still valid, anyone who says different is in direct oppisition to Yahshua's own words:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."[/FONT]



“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]all” is word #G3650 - holos - Strong's Concordance, holos: whole, complete, Original Word: ὅλος, η, ον, Part of Speech: Adjective, Transliteration: holos, Phonetic Spelling: (hol'-os), Short Definition: all, the whole, entire, Definition: all, the whole, entire, complete[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) all, whole, completely[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.”[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I most certainly have studied the OT Abraham and without the faith only filters you obviously use.

But do you want to know, O foolish man that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the alter? James 2:20-21

Anyone reading this without filters can see that James is clearly stating the need for works in this passage. Not any works but a certain command. The command to offer Isaac. Believing the command was not required, the work was required.

Do you not see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Regardless of when Abraham was justified, it was this work of obedience that perfected his faith. Nothing else.

And said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand of the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice. Genesis 22:16-18

God has granted favor to many, some have passed the test, such as Abraham and others such as King Saul have not. Abraham lived up to the blessings given to him and God was pleased. King Saul failed to live up to his calling and God regretted His choice.



Tell me, what works do you suspect I have used to "puff" myself up with?

No, You have not studied the OT. Because if you did you would know the following

1. Abraham was declaried righteous in Gen 15, By his faith, as paul said in romans 4. If he was found by works, he would have something to boast. But not before God., why? Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him for righteousness. (He did not earn a wage righteousness) he recieved a payment to his account (righteousness)

2. In Gen 16, Abraham commited adultry, and started the isreal/Arab war that has gone on ever since, and will continue to go on until Christ returns (Issaac vs Ishmael)

3. In Gen 17, God confirmed his covenant with Abraham, and said his WIFE would have a child, and that child would be the child of promise (ABRAHM FELL ON HIS KNEES AND LAUGHED AT GOD

4. In Gen 18, Sarah laughed at God about having a child

5. In Gen 21. Issaac is born

6. In Gen 21, Issaac (called a young man, not a child anymore. So most like in his teens) which means we are a few decades PAST the time abraham was declared righteous. Abraham takes Issaac to offer him up as a sacrifice.

James did not mess up that bad. James did not contradict paul. James was stating a fact.

IF Abraham did not have faith, he NEVER would have offered his son, But he was NOT saved by his work, he was SAVED by his faith. You would have abraham lost until he sacrificed his son, and headed to hell because he did not prove his faith yet. How ridiculous is this.

How do you puff yourself up? You puff yourself up by claiming your WORKS are what will has saved you,. Are saving you and or will save you. (Not of WORKS lest anyone (DJ2 for example) should BOAST! As paul said, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but BY HIS MERCY.

You can not EARN MERCY,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's best not to worry about what people say or think. We're supposed to worry about what God says. So yeah, if something goes against the word of God point it out and show scripture as to why you think it does. It's alright to stand up for the word of God and what you believe, but it is not alright to be nasty and rude to others, and just fight and argue over the word of God. Well that's how I see it anyhow...

Colossians 4: 5-6
5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

​I agree, thats what Ralph does. And why everyone should ignore him, Thats what Peter Jens did, and why I tried to get everyone to ignore him, he eventually got himself banned though. We can not call them out for their sins against us, when we sin against them in the same way. It is hypocritical.

 

[gb9]

anyone in Messiah will do as He says.

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”



I understand what the Messiah says, anyone who says different is not in truth, as Yahshua/Jesus is the "one we must hear and obey"

John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."


2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."




anyone in Messiah will do as He says.

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

In the same chapter of the same letter, just a few verses later, John said the commands were- believe in the name of the Son, and love one another. no Sabbath, no Mosaic law.

lots of folks quote parts of 1st John verbatim about command keeping, the conveniently leave out that John explained what the commands were . ( because it doe not fit their agenda???)

 

[Shamah]

WORKS:

Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”

FAITH:

Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

FAITH + WORKS:

James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

FAITH + WORKS:

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I feel I need to clarify what I mean by "nice",nice:not taking a stance so as to not hurt someone's feelings even when what one says is true,now we are to"love our neighbors as ourselves" but this doesn't mean that when push comes to shove that we are to "back down" when someone is "doing that which is wrong", or "promoting a view that is questionable",like in my case I believe we are saved by accepting Jesus as Saviour,some don't,now I of course will "care for any individual" but if "I witness something completely uncalled for" " I will speak up",if I "see a questionable doctrine" "I will stand against it with biblical truth".

Amen, It is one thing to question a person, Or continue to hold them accountable by pointing out a flaw. It is another to attack a person. And worse yet to lie about another person.

I am not sure if that guy is PJ or not. I have doubts, because they do not have the same writing style. But that may be on purpose. P4T did have a good clue, because PJ did use that language, but I am sure others do to.

If it is PJ, He will be found out. Just like the meggido dude was found out and now banned for the third time.

 

[notmyown]

No lost man can "choose to believe."

oh, c'mon. dead folk do stuff all the time.

 

[mailmandan]

No lost man can "choose to believe."

Not before being drawn (John 6:44) and enabled/granted him from the Father (John 6:65).