Not By Works

Budman · Jan 15, 2018

Yet again, you completely gloss over that Paul was speaking in the present tense. He said he is (not was) the chief of sinners, and that he doesn't do the good he wishes to do, but the evil he doesn't want to do, he instead does - not did.

Your twisted theology puts Paul right into hell.

You absolutely did not. That verse says nothing about "living in sin". It says specifically that one born of God DOES NOT sin, nor CAN HE.

You are adding to the word of God in able to ram your works based salvation into the gospel.

Grace is unmerited - period. ALL sins, past, present, and future, were paid for through the blood of Jesus. All believers will NEVER have a single sin credited to them. Whether we commit one sin a day, or a hundred. Chastisement and a loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ (something you know little about) is what awaits a child who lives in disobedience. A Christian can never lose their salvation based on their performance because our salvation isn't based on us AT ALL. It is based on the finished work of Jesus.

The entire salvation issue was settled at the cross.

If you want your merit based system Ralph, you are doomed if you commit a single sin.

Seohce · Jan 15, 2018

VCO said:

It is true that JUSTIFICATION is by GRACE through FAITH and I believe that because I have FAITH ÌN GOD and in His only begotten son Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

By God’s GRACE & MERCY we were saved through FAITH (eph 2:8-9, titus 3:5) but FAITH without works is DEAD and a DEAD FAITH cannot save. (james 2:14-26)

Anyone who has LIFE stays in the LIGHT.

JESUS is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE (john 14:6) and He is the LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. WHOEVER “FOLLOWS’ ME WILL NEVER WALK IN DARKNESS, but will have the light of life.”(Ref: 1john 1:5-10)

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and FOLLOW ME.

JESUS SAID THAT IF WE WANT TO ENTER LIFE WE SHOULD OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. (matthew 19:16-30)
IF THOSE WHO PROMOTE OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S LAWS & COMMANDMENTS ARE BEING CALLED AS WORKS SALVATIONISTS THEN JESUS WOULD BE THEIR LEADER.

IF OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S LAWS & COMMANDMENTS ARE WORKS THAT HAVE NO BEARING (UNNECESSARY) TO OUR SALVATION, THEN THE FF: VERSES SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENLIGHTEN US ABOUT THE TRUTH.

1 Corinthians 13:2,13 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and IF I HAVE A FAITH that can move mountains, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I AM NOTHING. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

if 1

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.

1 John 5:3 THIS IS LOVE FOR GOD: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

1 John 3:23-24 AND THIS IS HIS COMMAND: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. THOSE WHO OBEY HIS COMMANDS live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

John 14:15,21,23-24,31 IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL OBEY WHAT I COMMAND. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

1 John 4:8-21 WHOEVER DOES NOT LOVE DOES NOT KNOW GOD, because God is love. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. GOD IS LOVE. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW.

1 John 3:18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but WITH ACTIONS AND IN TRUTH.

IT IS ONE THING TO SAY AND CLAIM AND ANOTHER THING TO DO AND WALK THE TALK.

1 John 3:16-17 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, HOW CAN THE LOVE OF GOD BE IN HIM?

Romans 10:10 FOR IT IS WITH YOUR HEART THAT YOU BELIEVE and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 12:9-21 LOVE MUST BE SINCERE. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (james 2:14-26)

WORK THAT IS NOT BY FAITH IS SIN (romans 14:23)

WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS FAITH THAT WORKS IN LOVE (galatians 5:6)

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were WORKING TOGETHER, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

DO WE JUST REJECT THESE TRUTHS AND FOLLOW MAN-MADE RULES AND DOCTRINES?

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, but THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN DOES SO TO GAIN HONOR FOR HIMSELF, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Romans 3:3-4 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

Budman · Jan 15, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Indeed. There is a big difference in believing there is a God and believing in God.

Budman · Jan 15, 2018

Ralph- said:

You have absolutely no idea what justification is, do you?

Budman · Jan 15, 2018

Then you would have something to boast about.

But not before God.

Ralph- · Jan 15, 2018

Budman said:

If you can't show yourself to be a justified person then you are not a justified person.

If having your sins forgiven apart from the merit of work does not result in you being a new creation growing up into the image of Christ you do not have the forgiveness of sins apart from work you think you do. You show that you do not have the Holy Spirit.

Studyman · Jan 15, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I just quoted what Paul said about the Pharisees and you reject his words, along with Jesus and Jeremiah. Is there some secret obscure sentence Paul wrote that is only found in your mind that makes Jesus a liar, and His Words untrue?

Jesus:

"Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men".
"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders;"
" Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."
"My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Decon: "Walking in all of God's Commandments, "Blameless".

The Spirit of Christ or as He called it "The Spirit of Truth", would never lead a man to preach out and out lies about God's Word.

Yet you are!!

gb9 · Jan 15, 2018

Studyman said:

I just quoted what Paul said about the Pharisees and you reject his words, along with Jesus and Jeremiah. Is there some secret obscure sentence Paul wrote that is only found in your mind that makes Jesus a liar, and His Words untrue?

Jesus:

"Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men".
"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders;"
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."
"My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Decon: "Walking in all of God's Commandments, "Blameless".

The Spirit of Christ or as He called it "The Spirit of Truth", would never lead a man to preach out and out lies about God's Word.

Yet you are!!

you mean lies like Christians must keep the Sabbath ? you mean lies like Acts 15 puts gentiles under the law instead of the truth that it does not?

yeah, lies like that about God's Word need to stop. so stop.

mailmandan · Jan 15, 2018

gb9 said:

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 15, 2018

And you can take it from Spock. Leonard Nimoy was Jewish in real life and he used the hand sign from the priestly blessing for the Vulcan salute.

Ralph- · Jan 15, 2018

Budman said:

Chapter 7 is him not walking in the Spirit. Then he explains in chapter 8 how he is rescued from that through walking in the Holy Spirit, and as a result does not come under the condemnation of the law-Romans 8:4.

Your's is the doctrine that puts him in hell. You have him contradicting himself when he says people who live in sin don't inherit the kingdom-Galatians 5:21 while you insist he's presently living in sin-Romans 7. If he's living in sin as you insist then by his own words he's not going to inherit the kingdom-1 Corinthians 6:9, Ephesians 5:5, Galatians 5:21.

Budman said:

Then you are condemning yourself as an unbeliever because I am sure you are not sinless. In your effort to condemn me as not being one who 'does not sin' you are condemning yourself. And you don't even realize it.

Budman said:

Don't take verses out of context of the whole Bible. That's called not rightly dividing the Word of God. The rest of the Bible provides more information about this. John said the person who continues to sin is not born again (so much for your salvation, according to what you yourself are trying to push here). Paul says it is the person living in sin that is not saved. Together we know then that 'continuing to sin' means 'living in sin'.

Budman said:

Absolutely true. But not true for the person living in sin. They show by their lives that they did NOT receive the grace of God you describe above.

Budman said:

Who's talking about losing salvation? It doesn't matter if you never had it, or lost it because if you stand before the Christ having lived in sin you will not inherit the kingdom. You show by your life that you either never had it or you later lost it. That doesn't change the fact that you are at that moment standing before Christ with no life to prove you belong to Him. Off to the furnace you go.

Budman said:

I'm not doomed because my sins are covered by the blood of Christ. I know that because I'm not living in my old life anymore. I have a new life that's changed and continues to change into the image of Christ. It's the person who is not changed/changing that shows they do not have the covering of Christ. They are the ones who are doomed if they commit a single sin, and are doomed for the sins they've already committed. They show that's true by their life. They show they do not have the grace of God in justification. If they did they would be a new creation growing out of their sin, not living in it.

What we're seeing here is you are arguing that grace is a license to sin. You're saying grace makes it so you can live the way you want and you will still be saved when Jesus comes back. And the instant you say you're not saying that you'll be making the distinction between the old life and the new that you insist does not exist.

Ralph- · Jan 15, 2018

gb9 said:

They are not teaching keeping the law to be justified. They are saying it is the expected obedience that follows salvation, just as most of us Christians say do not commit adultery is the expected obedience that follows genuine salvation. Get it?

When they make this about justification, call me.

Studyman · Jan 15, 2018

dcontroversal said:

That's right, better change the subject. LOL. So you are lying about God's Word where the Pharisees were concerned, but telling the truth about salvation.

Well, that's a comfort.

mailmandan · Jan 15, 2018

Ralph- said:

Here is quote from someone on CC who continuously talks about the 10 commandments "with a heavy emphasis on keeping the sabbath day."

Does that sound like "expected obedience that follows salvation" to you? Or does that sound like salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works?" The answer is obvious to me.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 15, 2018

mailmandan said:

And a partridge in a pear tree!

eternally-gratefull · Jan 15, 2018

1ofthem said:

Amen., Not to mention those who come from a sacramental or works based gospel, who say they believe all of that,. Yet depend on their religious traditions or works to get them to heaven.

James had a point when he said even demons believe. They to believe Jesus was God, came to earth,. And died for the sins of mankind.

1ofthem · Jan 15, 2018

Studyman said:

Philippians 3:5-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Pharisees loved the letter of Law…so much that they even added more to it just to try to clarify how to follow it correctly. Yet, they did not even understand the spirit of the Law. They were only concerned about the outward appearance of keeping it and not the inward spirit of the Law.

I’m pretty sure they followed the Law to the letter. Yet, they only did this through pride and arrogance of their self, not really to please God, but to look good to others. So yes, in the Law its self they were blameless, but unto God they were hypocrites because their true intent on following the Law was out of judgmental pride and arrogance. They did not truly care about God or anyone else.

This is my view on it anyhow…

And if you look around, you can still see the same spirit they had at work today in some people.

Studyman · Jan 15, 2018

All your sarcasm, cartoons, scorn and insults doesn't erase the Biblical fact that the Pharisees had created their own Laws and Salvation and were NOT following God's Laws as you and "Many" who come in Christ's Name preach. Even after you have been shown, you still preach this lie.

The Pharisees, the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus' time, did the exact same thing. They taught lies about God's Word and when God's Word exposed them, they didn't reject the lies they told, they rejected the Word that exposed them.

This behavior showed us that even though they claimed to know God, they had actually created their own god and was following their version of their own "Creation".

You do the exact same thing as Paul explains.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, (telling lies about how His Laws are burdensome, etc.)neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, (Long haired playgirl centerfold) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

25 Who changed the truth of God (The Pharisees were rejected because the disobeyed God) into a lie,(The Pharisees were rejected because they obeyed God) and worshipped and served the creature (Long haired men's hair shampoo model)more than the Creator, (Jesus, God of the Old Testament) who is blessed for ever. Amen.

justpassinthrough · Jan 15, 2018

dcontroversal said:

The work that is required for salvation is obedience.

Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

[FONT=&quot]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ord[/FONT][FONT=&quot], who has believed our report?”
[/FONT]Romans 10:16

eternally-gratefull · Jan 15, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Isaiah had it right, when he said who has believed (he who does not believe shall not see life but the wrath of God abided)

Obedience to the gospel is not being a morally good person. No one has met that Standard.

It is BELIEVING what the HS came to deliver, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And entrusting our eternity to Christ.

Not By Works

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