Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

[QUOTE]Because, a gospel that includes a FAITH plus WORKS, is a false GOSPEL.

We go round and round in circles because these statements are not specific enough. Are you talking about the moment of justification, or are you talking about at the return of Christ?

Justification is entirely on the basis of faith in God's forgiveness apart from works.

At the return of Christ if your faith is alone, having no works, no change of life attached, you will be showing yourself to not be justified in Christ and you will not be saved.

And it doesn't matter if you were never justified to begin with, or you had it and lost it. Either way your empty, fruitless life will testify against you at Christ's coming and you will go to the left with the goats into the eternal fire-Matthew 25:41. Faith that is alone can not save-James 2:14. Barren fields are, in the end, burned up, not harvested-Hebrews 6:8. Works accompany salvation-Hebrews 6:9.[/QUOTE]




Not sure why that didnt quote your post Ralph.


stones:

Going back to trusting in law, which the Gentiles never did by the way, will bring nothing but thorns and thistles. Why you ask? Because that is cursed ground. Man has to labor to keep them out. The good ground is the foundation of Jesus Christ, righteous One. Remain in Him, abiding in faith towards His sacrifice brings forth works of Spirit. Formerly, before grace, man could only do dead works. Without life, life giving Spirit, nor a lifed spirit of man. Yet, Jews sacrificed blood of innocent young animals. Gentiles, unless joining Jews were just out of luck.

Sheep and goats are nations that followed YHWH, or nations of idols.

Now we are the Sons of God. Looking to the promises.

eb 7:18 Indeed, because it was weak and ineffective, the former commandment has been annulled,


Heb 7:19 since the Law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is presented, by which we approach God.




Heb 7:24 But because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.


Heb 7:25 Therefore, because he always lives to intercede for them, he is able to save completely those who come to God through him.

The way of the Lord has always been promises. Don't create an Ishmael trying to perform.


Heb 6:17 In the same way, when God wanted to make the unchangeable character of his purpose perfectly clear to the heirs of his promise, he guaranteed it with an oath,


Hey 6:18 so that by these two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to prove false, we who have taken refuge in him might be encouraged to seize the hope set before us.

rightly divide.

 

[mailmandan]

The work that is required for salvation is obedience.

Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:16

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws or statutes to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[Studyman]

Philippians 3:5-6King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The Pharisees loved the letter of Law…so much that they even added more to it just to try to clarify how to follow it correctly. Yet, they did not even understand the spirit of the Law. They were only concerned about the outward appearance of keeping it and not the inward spirit of the Law.

I’m pretty sure they followed the Law to the letter. Yet, they only did this through pride and arrogance of their self, not really to please God, but to look good to others. So yes, in the Law its self they were blameless, but unto God they were hypocrites because their true intent on following the Law was out of judgmental pride and arrogance. They did not truly care about God or anyone else.

This is my view on it anyhow…

And if you look around, you can still see the same spirit they had at work today in some people.

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, and I understand what is at stake. The whole "God's Laws are burdensome" God's Laws are against us", contrary to us". A yoke and an evil hardship that Jesus had to come back and save us from, is all founded on the preaching that the Pharisees were trying to "Follow the Letter of the Law". But God's Word says the opposite. That is my point.

When did Jesus ever say they were following God's Laws? And what about Paul's own words in Rom. 1, and elsewhere?

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

I understand we have been taught that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws from our youth. But if you would just free your mind from the preaching we were born into for just a few minutes and SEE what you are saying.

Paul said He persecuted the Church of God and was more zealous than most for the "Traditions of his fathers". (Jews) Listen to Stephen:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels,(From God) and have not kept it.

You said:

The Pharisees loved the letter of Law"

Can you show me anywhere in the Bible that says this? Paul was a Pharisee and was a "perfect" Pharisee. "As touching the law, a Pharisee". But the Pharisees were never following God's Laws. Zechariahs did, Noah did, Abraham did, Daniel did. But the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Yet you just said the Pharisee "Loved the letter of the Law". I mean no disrespect, but how can you ignore so much of the scriptures regarding the Pharisees?

Jer. 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Matt. 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus described a specific group of people that WILL try and deceive us. And He warned to "Take Heed".

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is only one group of people who come in Christ's Name, who teach that Jesus is truly the Messiah. "Christianity". Not Islam, or Buddha, or Atheists. Jesus warned specifically about Christians.

You and I have learned everything we know about God from their influence. If you clear your mind of this influence for just a little while and study about the Jews religion, you will find they had, like Jesus said, created their own Laws and had rejected much of God's Word.

Not all of His Laws, everybody keep some of God's Law. But the Pharisees had created their own Sabbaths where is was against god to help a sick brother during the Sabbath. God never taught that. They taught you couldn't eat or visit with a gentile. God never taught that. They preached you couldn't take a walk on the Sabbath and eat a strawberry, God never taught that.

"We have a Law, and by our Law He should die". Can you find in the Law and Prophets where God condemned Jesus to death?

No my friend, you can't because it isn't there. The Pharisees had created their own Laws. They call it the "Talmud" today. You might look into it.

Ask yourself some questions.

Why did God send the Prophets to the Pharisees of the Old Testament? These were the "traditions of Paul's fathers" Was it because they were following the letter of God's Law? Or because they had corrupted God's Law?

What if they had really "followed the letter of God's Laws"?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I could go on and on. The Pharisees were not follow God's Laws, they had created their own.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Why is it hard to believe that this religion, which killed Abel and the Prophets, and Jesus and Stephen, was not following God's Laws but had created their own?

Because most of todays Mainstream Christian doctrine is built on this lie. Their version of Col. 2, all of Romans, Galatians. When a man accepts the truth about the Pharisees, it exposes who Jesus said to "take Heed" of. Most people are comfortable in their deception as prophesied.

Jer. 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply. This is certainly an uncomfortable subject as so much church tradition rests on it.

 

[stonesoffire]

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws or statutes to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

Hi Dan

I read this persons post differently than both you and EG.

The last line, imo, is agreeing that obedience to the gospel is to believe what saith the Lord. For it ends with and who believes the report.

unless you both know something I don't concerning posts by this person.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Dan

I read this persons post differently than both you and EG.

The last line, imo, is agreeing that obedience to the gospel is to believe what saith the Lord. For it ends with and who believes the report.

unless you both know something I don't concerning posts by this person.

I was simply elaborating on what justpassinthrough said.

 

[stonesoffire]

I was simply elaborating on what justpassinthrough said.

Then I misunderstood your post. Apologies.

 

[Magenta]

 

[TruthTalk]

Just trying to change the subject...... Sicario 2 is coming out this year. I'm so psyched.

. It is set to be released by Columbia Pictures on June 29, 2018.

 

[TruthTalk]

James says that without works there is no faith.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin."

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

 

[Ralph-]

Here is quote from someone on CC who continuously talks about the 10 commandments "with a heavy emphasis on keeping the sabbath day."

There is a counterfeit Gospel out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

Does that sound like "expected obedience that follows salvation" to you? Or does that sound like salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works?" The answer is obvious to me.

I know there are people within the Messianic movement who believe obeying the law earns them salvation. I can think of one right now from another thread. Just as there are those among the 'grace is not a license to sin' group who really do think grace is a license to sin. That hardly means everybody in the movement is a 'grace is a license to sin' believer, now does it?

If you will talk honestly and without defensiveness you will see they do NOT think their law keeping earns them salvation. They think being observant is the expected obedience that must follow justification by faith. Just as you think not committing adultery in the 10 Commandments is the expected obedience that must follow justification by faith. You keep the law because you think you should and it is not trying to be justified by the law, but when they keep the law it can't be anything but that. That's terribly hypocritical. Give 'em some space to follow their conscience. They aren't trying to earn their salvation.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

john 3

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Strong's #4100: pisteuo (pronounced pist-yoo'-o)

from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.




Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

́
believe
pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

1a) of the thing believed

1a1) to credit, have confidence

1b) in a moral or religious reference

1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

2a) to be intrusted with a thing

whosoever
3748. hostis, hétis, ho ti ►
Strong's Concordance
hostis, hétis, ho ti: whoever, anyone who
Original Word: ὅστις, ἥτις, ὅτι
Part of Speech: Relative Pronoun
Transliteration: hostis, hétis, ho ti
Phonetic Spelling: (hos'-tis)
Short Definition: whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever
Definition: whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from hos, and tis
Definition
whoever, anyone who

 

[NoNameMcgee]

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.




1 John Chapter 5
►


1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[1ofthem]

I appreciate the thoughtful reply, and I understand what is at stake. The whole "God's Laws are burdensome" God's Laws are against us", contrary to us". A yoke and an evil hardship that Jesus had to come back and save us from, is all founded on the preaching that the Pharisees were trying to "Follow the Letter of the Law". But God's Word says the opposite. That is my point.

When did Jesus ever say they were following God's Laws? And what about Paul's own words in Rom. 1, and elsewhere?

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

I understand we have been taught that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws from our youth. But if you would just free your mind from the preaching we were born into for just a few minutes and SEE what you are saying.

Paul said He persecuted the Church of God and was more zealous than most for the "Traditions of his fathers". (Jews) Listen to Stephen:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels,(From God) and have not kept it.

You said:



Can you show me anywhere in the Bible that says this? Paul was a Pharisee and was a "perfect" Pharisee. "As touching the law, a Pharisee". But the Pharisees were never following God's Laws. Zechariahs did, Noah did, Abraham did, Daniel did. But the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Yet you just said the Pharisee "Loved the letter of the Law". I mean no disrespect, but how can you ignore so much of the scriptures regarding the Pharisees?

Jer. 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Matt. 23:4
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus described a specific group of people that WILL try and deceive us. And He warned to "Take Heed".

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is only one group of people who come in Christ's Name, who teach that Jesus is truly the Messiah. "Christianity". Not Islam, or Buddha, or Atheists. Jesus warned specifically about Christians.

You and I have learned everything we know about God from their influence. If you clear your mind of this influence for just a little while and study about the Jews religion, you will find they had, like Jesus said, created their own Laws and had rejected much of God's Word.

Not all of His Laws, everybody keep some of God's Law. But the Pharisees had created their own Sabbaths where is was against god to help a sick brother during the Sabbath. God never taught that. They taught you couldn't eat or visit with a gentile. God never taught that. They preached you couldn't take a walk on the Sabbath and eat a strawberry, God never taught that.

"We have a Law, and by our Law He should die". Can you find in the Law and Prophets where God condemned Jesus to death?

No my friend, you can't because it isn't there. The Pharisees had created their own Laws. They call it the "Talmud" today. You might look into it.

Ask yourself some questions.

Why did God send the Prophets to the Pharisees of the Old Testament? These were the "traditions of Paul's fathers" Was it because they were following the letter of God's Law? Or because they had corrupted God's Law?

What if they had really "followed the letter of God's Laws"?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I could go on and on. The Pharisees were not follow God's Laws, they had created their own.

Why is this so hard to grasp? Why is it hard to believe that this religion, which killed Abel and the Prophets, and Jesus and Stephen, was not following God's Laws but had created their own?

Because most of todays Mainstream Christian doctrine is built on this lie. Their version of Col. 2, all of Romans, Galatians. When a man accepts the truth about the Pharisees, it exposes who Jesus said to "take Heed" of. Most people are comfortable in their deception as prophesied.

Jer. 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply. This is certainly an uncomfortable subject as so much church tradition rests on it.

Hi and thanks for you thoughtful reply as well. I haven't had a chance to read it all, yet...I am swamped with paper work so even though it is Martin Luther King Jr. day...I'm working at home.. lol

So I am just checking in here for a break...Anyhow, I do appreciate your thoughtful reply and plan to read it all and get back to you on it.

As for now this is all I can say about it...The Pharisees did try to keep the Law as it was written, but they were not blameless before God. They did not even understand the spirit or the true intent of the Law, and yes, I agree they added to it and twisted it to fit their own selfish wants and needs. They were definitely hypocrites and of the devil because all the work they did on following the Law was not of God because they did not even know God they only used him and the Law for their own personal gain.

 

[TruthTalk]

john 3

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Strong's #4100: pisteuo (pronounced pist-yoo'-o)

from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.




Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

́
believe
pisteuō

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

1a) of the thing believed

1a1) to credit, have confidence

1b) in a moral or religious reference

1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity

2a) to be intrusted with a thing

whosoever
3748. hostis, hétis, ho ti ►
Strong's Concordance
hostis, hétis, ho ti: whoever, anyone who
Original Word: ὅστις, ἥτις, ὅτι
Part of Speech: Relative Pronoun
Transliteration: hostis, hétis, ho ti
Phonetic Spelling: (hos'-tis)
Short Definition: whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever
Definition: whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from hos, and tis
Definition
whoever, anyone who

Excellent exegesis, excellent post Mcgee, adding works to the finished work of Jesus is pure
"Cainology" unacceptable worship. Adding your wonderful works before God is boasting;
better that we boast in Jesus Christ not our good works.

 

[1ofthem]

Hi and thanks for you thoughtful reply as well. I haven't had a chance to read it all, yet...I am swamped with paper work so even though it is Martin Luther King Jr. day...I'm working at home.. lol

So I am just checking in here for a break...Anyhow, I do appreciate your thoughtful reply and plan to read it all and get back to you on it.

As for now this is all I can say about it...The Pharisees did try to keep the Law as it was written, but they were not blameless before God. They did not even understand the spirit or the true intent of the Law, and yes, I agree they added to it and twisted it to fit their own selfish wants and needs. They were definitely hypocrites and of the devil because all the work they did on following the Law was not of God because they did not even know God they only used him and the Law for their own personal gain.

I tried to make that post earlier and had to delete it. Don't know why, but it kept putting my personal info in it...

Looks like I took care of it and got it all deleted...but if not, I just want to say...I enjoy discussing this with all of you all on here, but I don't really want anyone to call me or come and visit me to talk about it...So please just disregard my personal info if it is still showing... LOL

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Dan

I read this persons post differently than both you and EG.

The last line, imo, is agreeing that obedience to the gospel is to believe what saith the Lord. For it ends with and who believes the report.

unless you both know something I don't concerning posts by this person.

Hey sis, I just made a statement, Not sure if he agreed with me or not. His response will show what he was really thinking.

 

[Ralph-]

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Why is it when we keep the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'-Leviticus 19:18, it's not us trying to justify ourselves by the law, but when Messianics keep Sabbath it can be nothing but that?

 

[Ralph-]

Excellent exegesis, excellent post Mcgee, adding works to the finished work of Jesus is pure
"Cainology" unacceptable worship. Adding your wonderful works before God is boasting;
better that we boast in Jesus Christ not our good works.

But if we add 'love your neighbor as yourself'-Leviticus 19:18 to our faith it's not Cainology, right?

 

[Studyman]

I tried to make that post earlier and had to delete it. Don't know why, but it kept putting my personal info in it...

Looks like I took care of it and got it all deleted...but if not, I just want to say...I enjoy discussing this with all of you all on here, but I don't really want anyone to call me or come and visit me to talk about it...So please just disregard my personal info if it is still showing... LOL

No worries, I'm not a stalker, LOL.

 

[blue_ladybug]

*Prank calls you at home and breathes creepily into the phone* LOL


bwahahah

I tried to make that post earlier and had to delete it. Don't know why, but it kept putting my personal info in it...

Looks like I took care of it and got it all deleted...but if not, I just want to say...I enjoy discussing this with all of you all on here, but I don't really want anyone to call me or come and visit me to talk about it...So please just disregard my personal info if it is still showing... LOL