Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit

[VW]

Has anyone else noticed that in all of the words we have recorded of Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit, and His work in us, that not once is scripture mentioned? He puts it very clearly the place of the Spirit in our lives, saying; "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Now some would say that this was only intended for the disciples who were there with Him when He said this. If so, then the Holy Spirit is not given, and John lied when he wrote, "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

I take very clear exception to those who would condemn a whole group of those who love the Lord above their own life, who have endured ridicule and chastisement and scorn because of a call which is not understood by those who are speaking. Discernment is not from our reason, but is a spiritual gift, given by the Holy Spirit. Reasoned condemnation of anyone is a sin.

 

[Saint]

oops, at first i thought you were saying something else. i completely agree, anyone who claims to fully understand the Spirit or it's gifts is wrong

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Has anyone else noticed that in all of the words we have recorded of Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit, and His work in us, that not once is scripture mentioned? He puts it very clearly the place of the Spirit in our lives, saying; "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Now some would say that this was only intended for the disciples who were there with Him when He said this. If so, then the Holy Spirit is not given, and John lied when he wrote, "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

I take very clear exception to those who would condemn a whole group of those who love the Lord above their own life, who have endured ridicule and chastisement and scorn because of a call which is not understood by those who are speaking. Discernment is not from our reason, but is a spiritual gift, given by the Holy Spirit. Reasoned condemnation of anyone is a sin.

First, Jesus used phrases that encompass the whole Old Testament and referred to the Old Testament as a whole (example: Matt. 5:17) but also "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself' (Luke 24:27). Once He referred to all the books from Genesis to 2 Chronicles (the last book in the Jewish listing of the Old Testament): "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah" (Matt. 23:35). This is the equivalent of our phrase, "from Genesis to Malachi."

Secondly, Jesus promised the divine authority of the New Testament. Not only did Jesus confirm the Old Testament to be the Word of God, He also promised the same for the New Testament, affirming that the Holy Spirit would teach the apostles "all things" and lead them into "all truth." He announced, "The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26). He added, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth" (John l6:13).

Note that He said this to the apostles. Jesus' handpicked apostles understood His claims and their role in fulfilling them, for they too claimed to speak with the authority of God, as is evident from the claims made in their books (Gal 1:11-12; 1 Cor. 14:37; 1 John 1:1; 1 John 4:6; 2 Peter 1:16, 18).

He told His apostles to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt. 28:18-20).

So when someone comes along and says God is leading them into all truth in ways that GO AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THEY ARE DECEIVED AND/OR LYING. If that happens to be an "entire group of people" rather than just an individual, then the entire group of people are deceived and/or lying.

Today we call these groups cults exactly because they teach heresy that is in opposition to a historical authentic scriptural revelation (e.g. the historical teachings of Christ and the Apostles) and that is exactly what the early church fathers believed and taught. They believed, as their writings reflect, that both the Old and New Testaments were inspired writings of the Holy Spirit through the instrumentality of the prophets and apostles. They also believed the Scriptures were completely true and without error because they were the very Word of God given for the faith and practice of all believers.

Paul wrote of an elder (bishop) that "he must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it" (1:9). He added, "But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine" (2:l). The church was to continue faithfully in apostolic teaching (Acts 2:42), and the apostle's delegate was to establish "elders" who would help to preserve this path. There was not to be any contradiction between the apostles and the autonomous, independent local churches they were establishing.

The New Testament is the only authentic historically reliable record of Apostolic teaching. There is some apocryphal literature and a few other manuscripts which make the claim but are excluded for good reason (e.g. forgeries, etc...). The reasons for believing that the twenty-seven books of the current New Testament, and those alone, belong in the Christian New Testament canon are very strong. The evidence includes the promise of Jesus, the providence of God, the preservation by the people of God, and the proclamation of the church.

It may not "feel" good to call to denounce the false teachings of modern day cult leaders, cult founders, false prophets and false prophetesses but that is exactly what the apostles did and what they instruct us in scripture to do and for very good reasons. Consider John MacArthur's four article series on Avoiding Spiritual Counterfeiters: How to Treat False Teachers, Part 1

 

[Devolution]

Dont waste your breath VW, most cannot hear the voice of reason since they are taught church doctrines. You no doubt are aware of this verse : For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Angel of light huh. Ministers huh. We all know what ministers do...they preach ! Satan is in every established 'christian' church, no exceptions ! For MANY will come in MY NAME, saying, I am Christ ; And shall deceive MANY. Who in this world hold positions where MANY can be deceived? CHURCHES !!! Don't worry friend, the apostles were considered a cult also, history is repeated, this time by overzelous 'christians' condemning all who dare oppose clever church doctrines of men. They don't realise that churches can't save us, only the Word can ! Their faith is misplaced. When Christ returns what does it say? That the TRUTH will be taught to all the world. His CHURCH will be ESTABLISHED. So that begs a question, who are these churches since the church is not established and what have these churches been teaching? They've had 2010 years to spread the truth but Christ needs teach it when His kingdom is established !! What have they been doing all this time? Isaiah is blunt on this, They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the Lord, they shall cry aloud from the sea. Wherefore glorify ye the Lord in the fires, even the name of the Lord God of Israel in the Isles of the sea. From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous, But i said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me ! the treacherous dealers (the churches etc) have dealt treacherously, yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously. So they have leanness=starved of the truth. What do these churches go over and over and over? The MILK !! Basic doctrines, adults can't survive on milk alone. So i feel your frustration when reading these sorts declare they're saved & even chide us on the deeper mysteries of prophecies, when they don't even understand basic doctrine. One last thing, some have stated whoever claim to fully understand the Spirit etc are wrong !! I will point out Colloss 1:9-10 & 2:2-3 , Prov 28:5 , Psalm 25:14 & 110:10 , there are many more. Those of Christs come to understand everything, else how can we answer the hardest questions posed to us? God has a very definate PLAN in progress. It is not quoted plainly, but it is backed up by multiple unanswered quotes that form a picture that is hidden from the masses (that churches deal with) but revealed to the few. Many are called FEW are chosen. The many still worship Him, though blindly. And blind faith is very dangerous indeed. VERY.

 

[greatkraw]

Has anyone else noticed that in all of the words we have recorded of Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit, and His work in us, that not once is scripture mentioned? He puts it very clearly the place of the Spirit in our lives, saying; "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Now some would say that this was only intended for the disciples who were there with Him when He said this. If so, then the Holy Spirit is not given, and John lied when he wrote, "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

I take very clear exception to those who would condemn a whole group of those who love the Lord above their own life, who have endured ridicule and chastisement and scorn because of a call which is not understood by those who are speaking. Discernment is not from our reason, but is a spiritual gift, given by the Holy Spirit. Reasoned condemnation of anyone is a sin.

so spell it out VW

what revelation have you received from the spirit that is CONTRARY to scripture

 

[ibewhoibe]

Has anyone else noticed that in all of the words we have recorded of Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit, and His work in us, that not once is scripture mentioned? He puts it very clearly the place of the Spirit in our lives, saying; "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." Now some would say that this was only intended for the disciples who were there with Him when He said this. If so, then the Holy Spirit is not given, and John lied when he wrote, "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

I take very clear exception to those who would condemn a whole group of those who love the Lord above their own life, who have endured ridicule and chastisement and scorn because of a call which is not understood by those who are speaking. Discernment is not from our reason, but is a spiritual gift, given by the Holy Spirit. Reasoned condemnation of anyone is a sin.

Greetings,

Yea can you spell this out, who's Condeming who?

Thanks from
"I Be"

 

[ibewhoibe]

First, Jesus used phrases that encompass the whole Old Testament and referred to the Old Testament as a whole (example: Matt. 5:17) but also "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself' (Luke 24:27). Once He referred to all the books from Genesis to 2 Chronicles (the last book in the Jewish listing of the Old Testament): "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah" (Matt. 23:35). This is the equivalent of our phrase, "from Genesis to Malachi."

Secondly, Jesus promised the divine authority of the New Testament. Not only did Jesus confirm the Old Testament to be the Word of God, He also promised the same for the New Testament, affirming that the Holy Spirit would teach the apostles "all things" and lead them into "all truth." He announced, "The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26). He added, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth" (John l6:13).

Note that He said this to the apostles. Jesus' handpicked apostles understood His claims and their role in fulfilling them, for they too claimed to speak with the authority of God, as is evident from the claims made in their books (Gal 1:11-12; 1 Cor. 14:37; 1 John 1:1; 1 John 4:6; 2 Peter 1:16, 18).

He told His apostles to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt. 28:18-20).

So when someone comes along and says God is leading them into all truth in ways that GO AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THEY ARE DECEIVED AND/OR LYING. If that happens to be an "entire group of people" rather than just an individual, then the entire group of people are deceived and/or lying.

Today we call these groups cults exactly because they teach heresy that is in opposition to a historical authentic scriptural revelation (e.g. the historical teachings of Christ and the Apostles) and that is exactly what the early church fathers believed and taught. They believed, as their writings reflect, that both the Old and New Testaments were inspired writings of the Holy Spirit through the instrumentality of the prophets and apostles. They also believed the Scriptures were completely true and without error because they were the very Word of God given for the faith and practice of all believers.

Paul wrote of an elder (bishop) that "he must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it" (1:9). He added, "But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine" (2:l). The church was to continue faithfully in apostolic teaching (Acts 2:42), and the apostle's delegate was to establish "elders" who would help to preserve this path. There was not to be any contradiction between the apostles and the autonomous, independent local churches they were establishing.

The New Testament is the only authentic historically reliable record of Apostolic teaching. There is some apocryphal literature and a few other manuscripts which make the claim but are excluded for good reason (e.g. forgeries, etc...). The reasons for believing that the twenty-seven books of the current New Testament, and those alone, belong in the Christian New Testament canon are very strong. The evidence includes the promise of Jesus, the providence of God, the preservation by the people of God, and the proclamation of the church.

It may not "feel" good to call to denounce the false teachings of modern day cult leaders, cult founders, false prophets and false prophetesses but that is exactly what the apostles did and what they instruct us in scripture to do and for very good reasons. Consider John MacArthur's four article series on Avoiding Spiritual Counterfeiters: How to Treat False Teachers, Part 1

Greetings,

Very nice, for it is what it is

I agree

"I Be"

 

[VW]

Greetings,

Yea can you spell this out, who's Condeming who?

Thanks from
"I Be"

You ask, and then in your next post, you answer.

 

[ibewhoibe]

You ask, and then in your next post, you answer.

Hi VW,

I'm sorry I though mabe you would have something that wasnt
CONTRARY to scripture, If this has give you a bad conviction

I apoligize

"I Be a Disciple of Jesus Christ"

 

[VW]

Hi VW,

I'm sorry I though mabe you would have something that wasnt
CONTRARY to scripture, If this has give you a bad conviction

I apoligize

"I Be a Disciple of Jesus Christ"

I don't believe that I have ever gone against scripture, not from the night that God set me straight. I take exception to the post which you agreed with. Only the apostles could receive revelation from God. If so, then none of us are saved, because it takes revelation from God for us to have anything to believe in that is from Him. He is the one who gives us the certain knowledge that Jesus is alive, risen from the dead. We know this not because of words written on a page, nor because of words spoken to us from others, but because of His Spirit dwelling in us, His dwelling in us.

No, the bible does not save us, God saves us.

I pray that I did not misunderstand you, and hope that if I offended you, that you can forgive me.
In His peace,
vic

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Dont waste your breath VW, most cannot hear the voice of reason since they are taught church doctrines. You no doubt are aware of this verse : For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Angel of light huh. Ministers huh. We all know what ministers do...they preach ! Satan is in every established 'christian' church, no exceptions ! For MANY will come in MY NAME, saying, I am Christ ; And shall deceive MANY. Who in this world hold positions where MANY can be deceived? CHURCHES !!! Don't worry friend, the apostles were considered a cult also, history is repeated, this time by overzelous 'christians' condemning all who dare oppose clever church doctrines of men. They don't realise that churches can't save us, only the Word can ! Their faith is misplaced. When Christ returns what does it say? That the TRUTH will be taught to all the world. His CHURCH will be ESTABLISHED. So that begs a question, who are these churches since the church is not established and what have these churches been teaching? They've had 2010 years to spread the truth but Christ needs teach it when His kingdom is established !! What have they been doing all this time? Isaiah is blunt on this, They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the Lord, they shall cry aloud from the sea. Wherefore glorify ye the Lord in the fires, even the name of the Lord God of Israel in the Isles of the sea. From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous, But i said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me ! the treacherous dealers (the churches etc) have dealt treacherously, yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously. So they have leanness=starved of the truth. What do these churches go over and over and over? The MILK !! Basic doctrines, adults can't survive on milk alone. So i feel your frustration when reading these sorts declare they're saved & even chide us on the deeper mysteries of prophecies, when they don't even understand basic doctrine. One last thing, some have stated whoever claim to fully understand the Spirit etc are wrong !! I will point out Colloss 1:9-10 & 2:2-3 , Prov 28:5 , Psalm 25:14 & 110:10 , there are many more. Those of Christs come to understand everything, else how can we answer the hardest questions posed to us? God has a very definate PLAN in progress. It is not quoted plainly, but it is backed up by multiple unanswered quotes that form a picture that is hidden from the masses (that churches deal with) but revealed to the few. Many are called FEW are chosen. The many still worship Him, though blindly. And blind faith is very dangerous indeed. VERY.

This is as much "reasoned condemnation" as anything. "Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." You are not a true prophet.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

This is as much "reasoned condemnation" as anything. "Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." You are not a true prophet.

Did he really just call every authentic Bible believing church in the world heretical because we do not align with the false teachings of the cult he associates with and/or false teachings he follows?

Obviously Jesus, Paul, and the apostles had to contend with these sort of false teachers and scripture reveals how they, in fact, did so. Directlly and strongly. The Galatia church is a good study on this topic.

Such people sometimes hold fast to a cult and condemn all the authentic Christians in the world but sometimes they are individuals acting alone. Also there are heretics like Harold Camping out there whom teach most of scripture correctly but then call all the churches heretical and tell people to sell everything and come out of them and under his control. Harold himself, has predicted the end of the world again here shortly (the first time his prophecy was a false prophecy and many of his followers who sold everything waiting for it were financially ruined afterwards) and this false prophecy will fail as well.

The one thing all these cults, heretics, and false teachers seem to have in common is a massive satanic deception hanging over them. Praise the Lord we are free indeed from all such lies of the enemy.

Thank you Lord Jesus for making us authentic Christians and leading us into truth regarding your Word. Please help people everywhere to discern the enemy's lies and false condemnation and reject them. Amen.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I don't know the person but that is the sort of assertion I often see those in cults make against authentic Christian believers and their assemblies.

 

[Saint]

Did he really just call every authentic Bible believing church in the world heretical because we do not align with the false teachings of the cult he associates with and/or false teachings he follows?

Obviously Jesus, Paul, and the apostles had to contend with these sort of false teachers and scripture reveals how they, in fact, did so. Directlly and strongly. The Galatia church is a good study on this topic.

Such people sometimes hold fast to a cult and condemn all the authentic Christians in the world but sometimes they are individuals acting alone. Also there are heretics like Harold Camping out there whom teach most of scripture correctly but then call all the churches heretical and tell people to sell everything and come out of them and under his control. Harold himself, has predicted the end of the world again here shortly (the first time his prophecy was a false prophecy and many of his followers who sold everything waiting for it were financially ruined afterwards) and this false prophecy will fail as well.

The one thing all these cults, heretics, and false teachers seem to have in common is a massive satanic deception hanging over them. Praise the Lord we are free indeed from all such lies of the enemy.

Thank you Lord Jesus for making us authentic Christians and leading us into truth regarding your Word. Please help people everywhere to discern the enemy's lies and false condemnation and reject them. Amen.

oops again, i thought he (vw's original post) was saying something else. if that was what he was intending, then i do not agree with the original post.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Yes, that is exactly what Devolution is saying. I do not believe that VW would agree with him and I do not think that VW is abandoning Biblical truth. What VW emphasizes to my understanding is the knowledge without faith in God is no salvation at all. That our faith is a relational faith and that some neglect their relationship with God and try to substitute learning for that relationship. He emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in understanding scripture and in understanding one's personal calling in Christ. He believes that any true guidance from the Holy Spirit would not be against the word of God. He is not the heretic that some think that he is.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

oops again, i thought he (vw's original post) was saying something else. if that was what he was intending, then i do not agree.

We are talking about Devolution, not VW.

 

[Saint]

We are talking about Devolution, not VW.

this thread is going by way too fast for me to catch up. Sorry VW.

 

[VW]

this thread is going by way too fast for me to catch up. Sorry VW.

Nothing to be sorry for. I understand that I sometimes say things in a way that seems to be contradictory to scriptural teaching. Why I do this is anyone's guess. But if we really look at the truth of God's word, it is clear to me that we are not meant to approach the wonders of Jesus Christ, His sacrifice and His life in us, without the leading of the Holy Spirit.

As fleshly beings, we have this great capacity to believe things, whether true or not. What we are taught has an influence over us that many times we are not even aware of, saying nothing of our experiences. I am still influenced by the things I learned from my father, many of them good, some of them not so good. The ones which were flat out wrong, I sought God to deliver me from their hold.

The only real conviction which I have that is contrary to accepted church doctrine is that the foundation of our truth, our reality in relation to our dealings with our heavenly Father, come from the Holy Spirit. He will use the scripture, many times exclusively. But if need be, He will use other things, anything at all. I know that He will never teach us against scripture, because in truth, scripture came from Him, He inspired all scripture. What I do say is that many times we have a wrong take on scripture, because we have not sought Him and His truth in what we believe.

And so, I caution others to always seek the Spirit in what they believe, seek His approval, or correction. But the best way is to come to Him seeking the truth, not holding truths we have gained elsewhere. Not easy, and some will not even consider this action, but I believe that this is entirely scriptural.

Anyway, blessings in Jesus,
vic

 

[Saint]

Nothing to be sorry for. I understand that I sometimes say things in a way that seems to be contradictory to scriptural teaching. Why I do this is anyone's guess. But if we really look at the truth of God's word, it is clear to me that we are not meant to approach the wonders of Jesus Christ, His sacrifice and His life in us, without the leading of the Holy Spirit.

As fleshly beings, we have this great capacity to believe things, whether true or not. What we are taught has an influence over us that many times we are not even aware of, saying nothing of our experiences. I am still influenced by the things I learned from my father, many of them good, some of them not so good. The ones which were flat out wrong, I sought God to deliver me from their hold.

The only real conviction which I have that is contrary to accepted church doctrine is that the foundation of our truth, our reality in relation to our dealings with our heavenly Father, come from the Holy Spirit. He will use the scripture, many times exclusively. But if need be, He will use other things, anything at all. I know that He will never teach us against scripture, because in truth, scripture came from Him, He inspired all scripture. What I do say is that many times we have a wrong take on scripture, because we have not sought Him and His truth in what we believe.

And so, I caution others to always seek the Spirit in what they believe, seek His approval, or correction. But the best way is to come to Him seeking the truth, not holding truths we have gained elsewhere. Not easy, and some will not even consider this action, but I believe that this is entirely scriptural.

Anyway, blessings in Jesus,
vic

Haha, for some reason i thought you said that we shouldn't read the Bible in your first post, not sure why i thought you said that. anyways, i do agree with this because before i used the Holy Spirit to guide me, i did what i did on this thread (misinterpret) a lot, except with the Bible and other signs from God. and that led me to fall fast.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Yes, that is exactly what Devolution is saying. I do not believe that VW would agree with him and I do not think that VW is abandoning Biblical truth. What VW emphasizes to my understanding is the knowledge without faith in God is no salvation at all. That our faith is a relational faith and that some neglect their relationship with God and try to substitute learning for that relationship. He emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in understanding scripture and in understanding one's personal calling in Christ. He believes that any true guidance from the Holy Spirit would not be against the word of God. He is not the heretic that some think that he is.

Acknowledged. Thank you for the explanation.