The Rapture

[DiscipleDave]

It is quite amazing that people come up with this notion that "everything in Revelation is symbolic", or allegorical, or metaphorical, or even that everything was already fulfilled in the first century. The symbols are generally explained so that we are not left wondering. And the unveiling of future events is generally chronological also, not a bunch of cycles as some claim.

Since this thread is about the Rapture, and the Rapture is absent from Revelation, not sure why Revelation is even being discussed in this thread.

Have to comment on this. The Rapture is not absent from revelation. One verse just popped into my head and i am sure there are others.

The Rapture is about the dead rising and the living rising too, correct?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So at the Rapture when a dead body rises it must be judged worthy in order for it to be chosen to rise. Not All dead people will rise, only those who are judged SAVED will rise. So even though Rev 11:18 does not say Rapture, it is referring to the Rapture event.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hi everyone,

Greetings.

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him.

This is what Scriptures teach as well.

Then those that are alive will be changed into incorruptible spirits to join Him.

This is not Scriptural. Yes we that are alive will be changed, but it does not say into spirits.

Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. A vision is an exception to what is literal. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven. I remind you this was written after the cross. No, Hebrews 12 doesn't prove anyone in heaven.

There is only one day that will determine who is going to Heaven and who is not going to Heaven, and that day is NOT at the time of death of a person. That day is when Christ Returns and if your name is found in the Book of Life you get to go to Heaven, if it is not in the Book of Life, you are left behind. It is ONLY that day that determines who is going to Heaven and who is not. And since that day has not happened yet, nobody is in Heaven nor in Hell. Judgement Day will determine who goes to Heaven and does not go to Heaven. JUDGEMENT DAY is NOT at the time of death of a person.

Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, we will be spirit. John said: John 4:24: “God is spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” and in 1 John 3:2: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." Sounds like we will be spirits too.

God the Father is a spirit. Jesus is not. No man has seen the Father at any time, because there is nothing to see, He is not physical, He has no matter. He is PURE LIGHT. Jesus is physical, made of matter. His flesh is not like human flesh. Human flesh is bound by the physics of this planet that humans live on. Heavenly flesh, that is to say, like Jesus and the Angels is indeed flesh but not flesh from the Earth. That flesh does not age, or get sick, or hungers.

When Jesus and the two Angels came down to destroy Sodom they first stopped by Abraham's domain. They looked like ordinary men. So much so that Abraham, offered them shade under his tree, and offered them food. What need would a spirit have to sit under the shade? What need would a spirit have to eat food. Jesus and the Angels with Him, were in their Glorified bodies. 100% Flesh and in the image of humans. But not flesh of the Earth.

What this generation can't grasp is that in our Glorified bodies we are neither male nor female, but we can look male or female if we so choose, being the offspring of God. We can be an eagle or a shark. We are not limited by the physics of the planet Earth. The children of God have no form, or any form. They can choose to be a wisp of smoke (spirit) or a T-Rex (physical matter). Our Glorified bodies are neither Spirit or physical, they are whatever you choose to be. If you can't swallow this, then don't. if you can, then well. It matters not what you believe concerning this that i just said.



^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[heartofdavid]

Jesus does not come post-trib. Jesus comes at the 7th Trumpet sounding, And since there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials. that means Jesus Returns Mid-trib.

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The Rapture happens when Jesus gets here. That is at the 7th Trumpet sounding.



The sole purpose of the Rapture is to gather up the Church to be with Jesus forever. The Church is DIRECTLY involved.



Saints are not left behind. Saints are taken up with Jesus when He gets here.




You do error in applying this parable to the actual events of the Christ Returning. This made up parable is to teach us to be ready and prepared for the Rapture. Not actual events of the Rapture itself.

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Scriptures teach that the Rapture happens at the 7th Trumpet sounding. Are you saying that the 7 seals, and the 6 Trumpet sounding before that is NOT Tribulations?

The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Vials are most assuredly part of the Tribulation Period.
In order to believe pretrib, a person must believe that Christ comes back for the Church before the first Trumpet is even sounded, that is PRIOR to the Tribulation Period. Do you see how that is illogical, not to mention, not even Scriptural.

Here is a Scriptural TRUTH. Christ Returns at the 7th Trumpet sounding. So then the question is is the 7th Trumpet sounding the beginning of the Tribulation period, middle of the Tribulation Period, or at the end of the Tribulation Period?

Jesus Christ is coming for the Church at the 7th TRUMPET sounding the last Trumpet sounding. Pretrib is NOT correct, the only time Pretrib would be Scripturally correct is if the 7th Trumpet sounding is what actually starts the 7 year Tribulation Period. That is the ONLY time that pretrib belief would be correct. But since we know that the seals and the first 6 trumpets are a part of the Tribulation Period, and we also know that the 7 vials/bowels are also a part of the 7 year Tribulation Period, the only thing that fits is Mid-trib.

Which looking on that, it makes since that most would believe pretrib, something that is contrary to the TRUTH. is satan not the god of this world. Aren't Many called buy only a few will find the TRUTH of that narrow and diffiucult path that leads to life everlasting? Seem logical then that Most would believe a lie of pretrib, and several would believe a lie of posttrib, but only a few will believe the TRUTH of SCRIPTURES and know that Mid-trib is the TRUTH.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

No midtrib rapture.
All on the planet take the mark. No christians are here during the gt

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said Jesus does not come post-trib. Jesus comes at the 7th Trumpet sounding

As I have stated so many times before, the "last trumpet" which is regarding the gathering of the church, both dead and living, has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of the seven trumpet judgments.

Just because you say it a thousand times does not make it True. As i have said many times as well, can you show Scriptures that prove the "Last Trump" is NOT referring to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation?

Therefore it is merely YOUR opinion that the verse which says "Last Trump" is NOT referring to the Last Trumpet in Revelation.

The "last trumpet" is a blessing for the church, where the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is apart of God's wrath.

You do error in this assumption. And even Scriptures proves you are in error. You say the 7th Trumpet is a part of God's wrath. Which i 100% agree that it is most certainly a part of God's wrath to be left behind. But that the 7th Trumpet is NOT a part of God's wrath to those who are chosen to be Raptured up with Jesus.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Tell me, does that sound like the wrath of God? Does it not sound like at the 7th trumpet sounding that Heaven is rejoicing. Read it again:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So then according to this verse. at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of Jesus Christ, Do you agree with this verse or disagree with this verse?

When the verse states that Jesus becomes the King of all the Kingdoms of the Earth, does it also say that He reigns forever and ever. Reread the verse:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

When does He reign? According to this verse at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is when the kingdoms of this world belong to Jesus Christ and He shall reign over them. When does this happen? According to Scriptures at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Its right there, i am not making it up, it is there in plain sight.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

So at the 7th Trumpet the 24 elders are celebrating and praising God, why?

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Are you not big on what Scriptures actually say Ahwatukee, Does the above verse which is a description of the 7th Trumpet blowing say that Jesus WILL reign? Nope. What does the verse actually say Ahwatukee? That He IS reigning. When does He start His reign on Earth? According to Scriptures at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So this verse says that at the 7th Trumpet sounding God gives out rewards. WHAT? That is not tribulations, that is rewarding. Do you not teach that the 7th Trumpet can't be the Rapture, because it is a part of the God's Wrath. But what do we see Scriptures plainly teaching about the 7th Trumpet sounding. That there are great voices in Heaven, that they are worshiping God, that the Kingdoms of the World, now belong to Jesus, that Jesus is reigning now, and the dead are raised up, and that that Saints and prophets are going to be rewarded, and All this is done during the 7th Trumpet sounding. Can you explain, why you believe that the Rapture can't possibly happen at the 7th trumpet because that is a part of the wrath of God, why does so many GOOD THINGS happen during the sounding of the 7th TRUMPET. All these Good things happen during the 7th Trumpet, but you seem to think it is not possible for the RAPTURE to happen at the 7th Trumpet because you say it is a part of the wrath of God. Which indeed it is for those who are not SAVED, but it is not for those who are SAVED. The Last Trumpet sounding is a glorious event for those who are SAVED, but is a horrible dreadful event for those who are left behind.

You even testify that the "Last Trump" is a blessing for the Church. Which is TRUE. The last Trumpet sounding in Revelation, the 7th Trumpet is ALSO a Blessing for the CHURCH. That is when the Mystery of God is finished, that is when the dead rise, that is when the Saints are rewarded, that is when the prophets are rewared, that is when Jesus controls all the Kingdoms of the world, that is when the Church is Raptured up to with Him, that is when Jesus starts His reign. Frankly i can't for the life of me figure out, with your intellegence, why you can't see this. Your own doctrine is blinding you to this TRUTH. Its almost as if you don't know that Revelation 11:15-19 even exist. In your mind the 7th Trumpet is a part of God's wrath, and any verse that says otherwise, you can't, or refuse to see it.

The 7th Trumpet Sounding is a part of God's wrath to those who are not chosen. But is indeed a blessing to them that are chosen. For some reason you can't or won't or refuse to believe that or understand that simple TRUTH.

In addition, there is nothing in the context in or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet that would even suggest the gathering of the church.

Seriously? You are highly learned of the Bible and you do not know this?

When are the dead judged and raised or not raised? According to Scriptures at the 7th Trumpet sounding is when the dead are judged. Are the dead raised at the Rapture?

When does the Kingdom of the world become the kingdom of Jesus Christ? at the 7th Trumpet.

When are the Saints rewarded, at the 7th Trumpet. Isn't at the Rapture Saints are rewarded Glorified bodies?

When are the Prophets rewarded, at the 7th Trumpet.

When, according to Scriptures does Jesus start His reign? At the 7th Trumpet.

You say

there is nothing in the context in or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet that would even suggest the gathering of the church.

Are you kidding me right now? The Dead are judged, the Saints are rewarded, Kingdoms of the World belong to Jesus, and Jesus starts His reign. NONE of this sound like a the Rapture to you. sigh... .. .. . it is as i said before, you totally and 100% ignore, interpret away, make void, or are just plain blind to the meaning of Rev 11:15-19. Like those verse don't even exist to you.

The only reason that you and others have related these two trumpets has being synonymous, is because of the word "trumpet."

That is not the ONLY reason. There are other reasons as well, first and foremost. i know they are one and the same because that is what God told me. Secondly, there are many similarities between the "last Trump" and the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation. Thirdly the "last Trump" is indeed talking about a series of trumpets being sounded. And we have an example of a series of trumpets being sounded in Revelation. And the "the last trump"et sounding in Revelations sound very much like the Rapture. Well to those who know the TRUTH anyways.

Yet, there are many different types of trumpets with different purposes. To make these two trumpets the same is just an exegetical error on your part.

Could i not say the exact same thing to you. "To say they are not one and the same is just an exegetical error on your part" And as i have said before, should i believe you over what God told me? That answer is no. Now if you can't show that the "last Trump" is NOT the 7th Trumpet, then i assure you it is ONLY your opinion that says it is NOT, and you won't be able to find one verse that says it is not, it is merely your opinion that they are not one and the same, and you did not even derive this opinion from Scriptures, if you did, then you would have already quoted the scriptures to back up your belief that they can't be one and the Same. So then it is your opinion, not based on Scriptures that the "last Trump" and the 7th Trumpet of Revelation are not the same event. Your opinion is wrong.

i have asked you to explain many things to me, which you have not done. Here again, i am asking you to explain to me each verse and what each verse means according to you, of Rev 11:15-19, which i feel for some reason you have excluded from your belief of when the Rapture will occur. Rev 11:15-19 is a very specific description of the 7th Trumpet sounding. So explain to me each verse and what each verse means.

You say at the Rapture the dead rise up to be with Christ, this is True and is Scriptural. Tell me are the dead judged at that Rapture? i mean the dead in Christ are raised first, the dead must be judged at this time correct? When does Scripture teach the dead are judged? At the 7th Trumpet sounding right?
You say at the Rapture the Saints are raised also correct? and given the reward of their Glorified bodies, right? i mean that is what you teach as well right, that at the Rapture is when the Saints get their Glorified bodies right? According to Scriptures when are the Saints rewarded? Again, at the 7th Trumpet sounding. Please try to answer all these questions, even as i do my very best to answer every single question that you have presented to me. Or do what you always do when you find it hard to answer a question that does not fit into your own belief, and just skip over it. We shall see.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Well DiscipleDave,

Time will tell us if that spirit that talked to you was God or Satan pretending to be an angel of light: 2 Corinthians 11:14: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” I won't argue that God talks to people, so do demons. Have you learned to try the spirits?

Yours,

Deade

Amen, and yes.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

No midtrib rapture.
All on the planet take the mark. No christians are here during the gt

You have every right to believe as you do, it is FREE WILL.

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

It is only wise to do so. Many false prophets satan has raised up, to cause this generation not to believe the real ones when they show up.

See post above.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Endoscopy]

Just because you say it a thousand times does not make it True. As i have said many times as well, can you show Scriptures that prove the "Last Trump" is NOT referring to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation?

Therefore it is merely YOUR opinion that the verse which says "Last Trump" is NOT referring to the Last Trumpet in Revelation.

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You do error in this assumption. And even Scriptures proves you are in error. You say the 7th Trumpet is a part of God's wrath. Which i 100% agree that it is most certainly a part of God's wrath to be left behind. But that the 7th Trumpet is NOT a part of God's wrath to those who are chosen to be Raptured up with Jesus.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Tell me, does that sound like the wrath of God? Does it not sound like at the 7th trumpet sounding that Heaven is rejoicing. Read it again:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So then according to this verse. at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of Jesus Christ, Do you agree with this verse or disagree with this verse?

When the verse states that Jesus becomes the King of all the Kingdoms of the Earth, does it also say that He reigns forever and ever. Reread the verse:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

When does He reign? According to this verse at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is when the kingdoms of this world belong to Jesus Christ and He shall reign over them. When does this happen? According to Scriptures at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Its right there, i am not making it up, it is there in plain sight.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

So at the 7th Trumpet the 24 elders are celebrating and praising God, why?

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Are you not big on what Scriptures actually say Ahwatukee, Does the above verse which is a description of the 7th Trumpet blowing say that Jesus WILL reign? Nope. What does the verse actually say Ahwatukee? That He IS reigning. When does He start His reign on Earth? According to Scriptures at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So this verse says that at the 7th Trumpet sounding God gives out rewards. WHAT? That is not tribulations, that is rewarding. Do you not teach that the 7th Trumpet can't be the Rapture, because it is a part of the God's Wrath. But what do we see Scriptures plainly teaching about the 7th Trumpet sounding. That there are great voices in Heaven, that they are worshiping God, that the Kingdoms of the World, now belong to Jesus, that Jesus is reigning now, and the dead are raised up, and that that Saints and prophets are going to be rewarded, and All this is done during the 7th Trumpet sounding. Can you explain, why you believe that the Rapture can't possibly happen at the 7th trumpet because that is a part of the wrath of God, why does so many GOOD THINGS happen during the sounding of the 7th TRUMPET. All these Good things happen during the 7th Trumpet, but you seem to think it is not possible for the RAPTURE to happen at the 7th Trumpet because you say it is a part of the wrath of God. Which indeed it is for those who are not SAVED, but it is not for those who are SAVED. The Last Trumpet sounding is a glorious event for those who are SAVED, but is a horrible dreadful event for those who are left behind.

You even testify that the "Last Trump" is a blessing for the Church. Which is TRUE. The last Trumpet sounding in Revelation, the 7th Trumpet is ALSO a Blessing for the CHURCH. That is when the Mystery of God is finished, that is when the dead rise, that is when the Saints are rewarded, that is when the prophets are rewared, that is when Jesus controls all the Kingdoms of the world, that is when the Church is Raptured up to with Him, that is when Jesus starts His reign. Frankly i can't for the life of me figure out, with your intellegence, why you can't see this. Your own doctrine is blinding you to this TRUTH. Its almost as if you don't know that Revelation 11:15-19 even exist. In your mind the 7th Trumpet is a part of God's wrath, and any verse that says otherwise, you can't, or refuse to see it.

The 7th Trumpet Sounding is a part of God's wrath to those who are not chosen. But is indeed a blessing to them that are chosen. For some reason you can't or won't or refuse to believe that or understand that simple TRUTH.



Seriously? You are highly learned of the Bible and you do not know this?

When are the dead judged and raised or not raised? According to Scriptures at the 7th Trumpet sounding is when the dead are judged. Are the dead raised at the Rapture?

When does the Kingdom of the world become the kingdom of Jesus Christ? at the 7th Trumpet.

When are the Saints rewarded, at the 7th Trumpet. Isn't at the Rapture Saints are rewarded Glorified bodies?

When are the Prophets rewarded, at the 7th Trumpet.

When, according to Scriptures does Jesus start His reign? At the 7th Trumpet.

You say

Are you kidding me right now? The Dead are judged, the Saints are rewarded, Kingdoms of the World belong to Jesus, and Jesus starts His reign. NONE of this sound like a the Rapture to you. sigh... .. .. . it is as i said before, you totally and 100% ignore, interpret away, make void, or are just plain blind to the meaning of Rev 11:15-19. Like those verse don't even exist to you.



That is not the ONLY reason. There are other reasons as well, first and foremost. i know they are one and the same because that is what God told me. Secondly, there are many similarities between the "last Trump" and the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation. Thirdly the "last Trump" is indeed talking about a series of trumpets being sounded. And we have an example of a series of trumpets being sounded in Revelation. And the "the last trump"et sounding in Revelations sound very much like the Rapture. Well to those who know the TRUTH anyways.



Could i not say the exact same thing to you. "To say they are not one and the same is just an exegetical error on your part" And as i have said before, should i believe you over what God told me? That answer is no. Now if you can't show that the "last Trump" is NOT the 7th Trumpet, then i assure you it is ONLY your opinion that says it is NOT, and you won't be able to find one verse that says it is not, it is merely your opinion that they are not one and the same, and you did not even derive this opinion from Scriptures, if you did, then you would have already quoted the scriptures to back up your belief that they can't be one and the Same. So then it is your opinion, not based on Scriptures that the "last Trump" and the 7th Trumpet of Revelation are not the same event. Your opinion is wrong.

i have asked you to explain many things to me, which you have not done. Here again, i am asking you to explain to me each verse and what each verse means according to you, of Rev 11:15-19, which i feel for some reason you have excluded from your belief of when the Rapture will occur. Rev 11:15-19 is a very specific description of the 7th Trumpet sounding. So explain to me each verse and what each verse means.

You say at the Rapture the dead rise up to be with Christ, this is True and is Scriptural. Tell me are the dead judged at that Rapture? i mean the dead in Christ are raised first, the dead must be judged at this time correct? When does Scripture teach the dead are judged? At the 7th Trumpet sounding right?
You say at the Rapture the Saints are raised also correct? and given the reward of their Glorified bodies, right? i mean that is what you teach as well right, that at the Rapture is when the Saints get their Glorified bodies right? According to Scriptures when are the Saints rewarded? Again, at the 7th Trumpet sounding. Please try to answer all these questions, even as i do my very best to answer every single question that you have presented to me. Or do what you always do when you find it hard to answer a question that does not fit into your own belief, and just skip over it. We shall see.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

​You obviously don't want people to read this post. Long winded posts are most likely to be ignored. Keep it short and simple.

 

[Locutus]

The more the words the less the meaning.

 

[heartofdavid]

Have to comment on this. The Rapture is not absent from revelation. One verse just popped into my head and i am sure there are others.

The Rapture is about the dead rising and the living rising too, correct?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So at the Rapture when a dead body rises it must be judged worthy in order for it to be chosen to rise. Not All dead people will rise, only those who are judged SAVED will rise. So even though Rev 11:18 does not say Rapture, it is referring to the Rapture event.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Mat 24 and 25. Have the rapture in them.

But rev has at least 2 raptures.
1The two witnesses

2 rev 14 has a gathering during the GT of Jews " ripe fruit"

 

[heartofdavid]

Just because you say it a thousand times does not make it True. As i have said many times as well, can you show Scriptures that prove the "Last Trump" is NOT referring to the last trumpet sounding in Revelation?

Therefore it is merely YOUR opinion that the verse which says "Last Trump" is NOT referring to the Last Trumpet in Revelation.

[/SIZE]

You do error in this assumption. And even Scriptures proves you are in error. You say the 7th Trumpet is a part of God's wrath. Which i 100% agree that it is most certainly a part of God's wrath to be left behind. But that the 7th Trumpet is NOT a part of God's wrath to those who are chosen to be Raptured up with Jesus.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Tell me, does that sound like the wrath of God? Does it not sound like at the 7th trumpet sounding that Heaven is rejoicing. Read it again:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So then according to this verse. at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet the kingdoms of the world have become the Kingdoms of Jesus Christ, Do you agree with this verse or disagree with this verse?

When the verse states that Jesus becomes the King of all the Kingdoms of the Earth, does it also say that He reigns forever and ever. Reread the verse:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

When does He reign? According to this verse at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is when the kingdoms of this world belong to Jesus Christ and He shall reign over them. When does this happen? According to Scriptures at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Its right there, i am not making it up, it is there in plain sight.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

So at the 7th Trumpet the 24 elders are celebrating and praising God, why?

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Are you not big on what Scriptures actually say Ahwatukee, Does the above verse which is a description of the 7th Trumpet blowing say that Jesus WILL reign? Nope. What does the verse actually say Ahwatukee? That He IS reigning. When does He start His reign on Earth? According to Scriptures at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So this verse says that at the 7th Trumpet sounding God gives out rewards. WHAT? That is not tribulations, that is rewarding. Do you not teach that the 7th Trumpet can't be the Rapture, because it is a part of the God's Wrath. But what do we see Scriptures plainly teaching about the 7th Trumpet sounding. That there are great voices in Heaven, that they are worshiping God, that the Kingdoms of the World, now belong to Jesus, that Jesus is reigning now, and the dead are raised up, and that that Saints and prophets are going to be rewarded, and All this is done during the 7th Trumpet sounding. Can you explain, why you believe that the Rapture can't possibly happen at the 7th trumpet because that is a part of the wrath of God, why does so many GOOD THINGS happen during the sounding of the 7th TRUMPET. All these Good things happen during the 7th Trumpet, but you seem to think it is not possible for the RAPTURE to happen at the 7th Trumpet because you say it is a part of the wrath of God. Which indeed it is for those who are not SAVED, but it is not for those who are SAVED. The Last Trumpet sounding is a glorious event for those who are SAVED, but is a horrible dreadful event for those who are left behind.

You even testify that the "Last Trump" is a blessing for the Church. Which is TRUE. The last Trumpet sounding in Revelation, the 7th Trumpet is ALSO a Blessing for the CHURCH. That is when the Mystery of God is finished, that is when the dead rise, that is when the Saints are rewarded, that is when the prophets are rewared, that is when Jesus controls all the Kingdoms of the world, that is when the Church is Raptured up to with Him, that is when Jesus starts His reign. Frankly i can't for the life of me figure out, with your intellegence, why you can't see this. Your own doctrine is blinding you to this TRUTH. Its almost as if you don't know that Revelation 11:15-19 even exist. In your mind the 7th Trumpet is a part of God's wrath, and any verse that says otherwise, you can't, or refuse to see it.

The 7th Trumpet Sounding is a part of God's wrath to those who are not chosen. But is indeed a blessing to them that are chosen. For some reason you can't or won't or refuse to believe that or understand that simple TRUTH.



Seriously? You are highly learned of the Bible and you do not know this?

When are the dead judged and raised or not raised? According to Scriptures at the 7th Trumpet sounding is when the dead are judged. Are the dead raised at the Rapture?

When does the Kingdom of the world become the kingdom of Jesus Christ? at the 7th Trumpet.

When are the Saints rewarded, at the 7th Trumpet. Isn't at the Rapture Saints are rewarded Glorified bodies?

When are the Prophets rewarded, at the 7th Trumpet.

When, according to Scriptures does Jesus start His reign? At the 7th Trumpet.

You say

Are you kidding me right now? The Dead are judged, the Saints are rewarded, Kingdoms of the World belong to Jesus, and Jesus starts His reign. NONE of this sound like a the Rapture to you. sigh... .. .. . it is as i said before, you totally and 100% ignore, interpret away, make void, or are just plain blind to the meaning of Rev 11:15-19. Like those verse don't even exist to you.



That is not the ONLY reason. There are other reasons as well, first and foremost. i know they are one and the same because that is what God told me. Secondly, there are many similarities between the "last Trump" and the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation. Thirdly the "last Trump" is indeed talking about a series of trumpets being sounded. And we have an example of a series of trumpets being sounded in Revelation. And the "the last trump"et sounding in Revelations sound very much like the Rapture. Well to those who know the TRUTH anyways.



Could i not say the exact same thing to you. "To say they are not one and the same is just an exegetical error on your part" And as i have said before, should i believe you over what God told me? That answer is no. Now if you can't show that the "last Trump" is NOT the 7th Trumpet, then i assure you it is ONLY your opinion that says it is NOT, and you won't be able to find one verse that says it is not, it is merely your opinion that they are not one and the same, and you did not even derive this opinion from Scriptures, if you did, then you would have already quoted the scriptures to back up your belief that they can't be one and the Same. So then it is your opinion, not based on Scriptures that the "last Trump" and the 7th Trumpet of Revelation are not the same event. Your opinion is wrong.

i have asked you to explain many things to me, which you have not done. Here again, i am asking you to explain to me each verse and what each verse means according to you, of Rev 11:15-19, which i feel for some reason you have excluded from your belief of when the Rapture will occur. Rev 11:15-19 is a very specific description of the 7th Trumpet sounding. So explain to me each verse and what each verse means.

You say at the Rapture the dead rise up to be with Christ, this is True and is Scriptural. Tell me are the dead judged at that Rapture? i mean the dead in Christ are raised first, the dead must be judged at this time correct? When does Scripture teach the dead are judged? At the 7th Trumpet sounding right?
You say at the Rapture the Saints are raised also correct? and given the reward of their Glorified bodies, right? i mean that is what you teach as well right, that at the Rapture is when the Saints get their Glorified bodies right? According to Scriptures when are the Saints rewarded? Again, at the 7th Trumpet sounding. Please try to answer all these questions, even as i do my very best to answer every single question that you have presented to me. Or do what you always do when you find it hard to answer a question that does not fit into your own belief, and just skip over it. We shall see.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

This theory is super problematic.
You need to test before taking a position.

1. You have the rapture happening AFTER the 2 wtnesses......impossible. The dead IN CHRIST rise first,not two Jews.

2. Rev 11 is a declaration, not a chronological continuant.

Hint,when is satan cast down? At the start of the GT,arriving on a white horse.
Hint, when is the earth redeemed?
In heaven,at the arrival of the kinsman redeemer or rev 5

You can not understand those things of rev 11,without help. You need us,WE ALL NEED US, to unravel the mysteries,

You need to study the book of ruth.
It contsins the rapture the 4 part harvest,the kinsman redeemer,the JEWISH RESTORATION, and the gentile bride.

 

[heartofdavid]

You have every right to believe as you do, it is FREE WILL.

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

It is only wise to do so. Many false prophets satan has raised up, to cause this generation not to believe the real ones when they show up.

See post above.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Just post concept vs concept

We don't need all the attacking drama

 

[heartofdavid]

You have every right to believe as you do, it is FREE WILL.

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

It is only wise to do so. Many false prophets satan has raised up, to cause this generation not to believe the real ones when they show up.

See post above.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

BTW, do show me where all on the planet DO NOT take the mark.

I noticed you kinda forgot that

 

[Ahwatukee]

BTW, do show me where all on the planet DO NOT take the mark.

I noticed you kinda forgot that

Morning heartofdavid,

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Those above are those who will have not received the mark and will have been killed because not worshiping the beast, his image nor receive his mark. There will also be those of the great tribulation saints who do not receive the mark and who will make it through until Christ comes and will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

 

[heartofdavid]

Greetings.



This is what Scriptures teach as well.



This is not Scriptural. Yes we that are alive will be changed, but it does not say into spirits.



There is only one day that will determine who is going to Heaven and who is not going to Heaven, and that day is NOT at the time of death of a person. That day is when Christ Returns and if your name is found in the Book of Life you get to go to Heaven, if it is not in the Book of Life, you are left behind. It is ONLY that day that determines who is going to Heaven and who is not. And since that day has not happened yet, nobody is in Heaven nor in Hell. Judgement Day will determine who goes to Heaven and does not go to Heaven. JUDGEMENT DAY is NOT at the time of death of a person.



God the Father is a spirit. Jesus is not. No man has seen the Father at any time, because there is nothing to see, He is not physical, He has no matter. He is PURE LIGHT. Jesus is physical, made of matter. His flesh is not like human flesh. Human flesh is bound by the physics of this planet that humans live on. Heavenly flesh, that is to say, like Jesus and the Angels is indeed flesh but not flesh from the Earth. That flesh does not age, or get sick, or hungers.

When Jesus and the two Angels came down to destroy Sodom they first stopped by Abraham's domain. They looked like ordinary men. So much so that Abraham, offered them shade under his tree, and offered them food. What need would a spirit have to sit under the shade? What need would a spirit have to eat food. Jesus and the Angels with Him, were in their Glorified bodies. 100% Flesh and in the image of humans. But not flesh of the Earth.

What this generation can't grasp is that in our Glorified bodies we are neither male nor female, but we can look male or female if we so choose, being the offspring of God. We can be an eagle or a shark. We are not limited by the physics of the planet Earth. The children of God have no form, or any form. They can choose to be a wisp of smoke (spirit) or a T-Rex (physical matter). Our Glorified bodies are neither Spirit or physical, they are whatever you choose to be. If you can't swallow this, then don't. if you can, then well. It matters not what you believe concerning this that i just said.



^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

You need to settle down and have your thoughts tested by the word and bereans here at cc.

Some of your stuff is not scriptural.

 

[heartofdavid]

Morning heartofdavid,

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Those above are those who will have not received the mark and will have been killed because not worshiping the beast, his image nor receive his mark. There will also be those of the great tribulation saints who do not receive the mark and who will make it through until Christ comes and will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

....and those of that verse are not on the planet.

The word says all take the mark...that live on the planet

 

[Endoscopy]

Absolutely not. If then you think that i have said something that is contrary to Scriptures, then please reveal what i said and the Scriptures that is contrary. Thanks.



lol., The four eschatologyical views come from men, who derive their interpretations from the Bible. The four eschatologyical views do not come from the Bible as you say, but comes from men who are interpreting the Bible. These men, do not understand this simple TRUTH. Interpretations belong to God NOT TO MEN. God will interpret to whom God will interpret a thing.



Yes. i have had many conversations with God prior to 1994. Nothing after 1994. If i am lying let me burn in Hell for all eternity, let me die a LONG and horrible, painful death. Not only that, if i am lying let my Mom and Dad who are still yet living die the same fate. Let my children suffer the same fate, let my siblings suffer the same fate. If i am lying let any person who i love and that loves me, die a horrible painful longsuffering death and all of them burn in hell for eternity, i pray that in Jesus name. Amen. Not that saying all this will convince this generation, no not this generation. They take thought "God speaking to people today, what absurdity!" Their mentality is such, that if God does not speak to them, He does not speak to anyone else. Is it not written God is the same yesterday, today, and forever? Did God speak to people in the past? Where in all of Scriptures does it say or imply that God no longer speaks to people? So if Scriptures does not teach that, who is teaching that? satan for one. satan knows all to well that in the last days God will speak to people again as a last attempt to try to reach people with His TRUTHS, what better strategy is there for satan then to convince people that God does not speak to people any more, that way when God does speak to people, and these same people tell the TRUTH that God told them this or that, then who will believe them. Also as another strategy, satan talked to people in the past and told them the world was going to end, and then convinced them to go to the corner of streets and prophesy the end of the world. When they all turn out to be wrong, who will listen to the REAL prophets who will be saying the End of the World is at hand? Brilliant strategy on satans part. He knows real prophets will show up in the last days, so create a bunch of false ones, so nobody will believe the real ones when they show up in the last days. Really brilliant, i say brilliant because it is working with this generation. Who believes there are prophets walking the Earth? Who believes God actually talks with people like He has always done in the past? Who?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Only in your mind does the 4 eschatologyical views not come from the Bible!! Your distorted view of scripture is the cause of your belief. You claim Christian theologians studying the Bible reading carefully ALL eschatologyical portions of scripture are deluded. One vs the world of Christian Biblical scholars. To counter this you claim special revelation from angels. Angels would not contradict the Bible the way what you preach does.

 

[PlainWord]

The problem I see with still being in the millennium PL is how do you explain the first fruits living from the 1st century until now?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

They are alive spiritually in the eternal state. After our physical death upon entering our new eternal state is where the real action is. This is when we are happy 24-7 and are really alive, right? DEATH = SEPARATION FROM GOD, ALIVE = PRESENT WITH GOD.

To confirm this passage is not discussing a physical reign on earth and is in fact discussing the afterlife, Christ is reigning with the beheaded, right? The beheaded, therefore, can only be alive in the spiritual realm. Those in the spiritual realm are never again going to revert back to physical beings.

 

[PlainWord]

PL - something to cogitate on.

You have a "millennium" so far as being 1900+ years as against my "40 years" - so when does the millennium end?

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

And in Ephesians:

(Eph 3:21 KJV) Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 3:21 (Young's Literal) to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

My understanding that the Greek behind "of the age of the ages" is the nearest that Greek can be used to mean "forever"

So this problem is this - if the church is active in "all the generations of the age of the ages" then you have an endless millennium rather than a specific period - which to me is a 1st century phenomena existing until the ending of the Mosaic age.

My dear friend, this passage Rev 20:4-6 has stumped people forever, myself included. But then I turned to science and went back to the Garden. In heaven there is no time. 1 day = 1,000 years, 1000 years = 1 day, right? This passage tells us, time does not exist in heaven. Since there is no time in Heaven, Heaven is forever. Thus in Heaven 1,000 years is forever and a day is forever. Mt 19: So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Where are those 12 thrones for the 12 to sit on? Heaven, right? Heb 1: But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness in the scepter of Your kingdom." We know from multiple passages that "Heaven is His throne and Earth is His footstool." Therefore Christ reigns in Heaven with the "beheaded" forever and ever.

Time is a dimension. Time varies depending on what planet you are on and how long it takes for your planet to circle its star. In heaven there is no star, God is the "sun." Rev 21:"The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light."

On earth no man has lived 1,000 earth years. Adam "died" on the day he sinned. Did Adam literally die on the same earth day? No. He died spiritually the moment God saw that Adam sinned and God cast Adam out of "the Garden." DEATH = SEPARATION from God. Adam died when He was separated from God. This is what Christ restored in 70 AD, for all those who died before then or would die in Christ after then. Thus in the regeneration, which happened in 70 AD, Christ sits on His throne in Heaven reigning with all the Saints who have physically died, this is the first resurrection, each in their own order. The second death (final separation from God) has no power over the "sons of the first resurrection."

So yes, we have an endless millennium in the spiritual realm where we all will be dwelling some day. As for the planet Earth and the physical realm, its ending is undefined.

 

[PlainWord]

Now the sea giving up her dead means something else.

Glad i don't have to resort to that type of desperation.

Yeah because you have much bigger problems to resolve.

 

[Ahwatukee]

....and those of that verse are not on the planet.

The word says all take the mark...that live on the planet

No, but they were on the planet. Point being is that you said everyone will receive that mark, but those people that I listed above will have not received the mark and will have been killed because of it. So, there are those who will not receive it, which are the great tribulation saints.