Not By Works
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They DID keep most of His "sayings". Just NOT the only one that would have given them eternal life.
21 [FONT="]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the Will of my Father in Heaven".
[/FONT][h=1]John 6:40New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 6:29New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Not quite sure how plainer Jesus can be. Those people relied on THEIR work. They told us so.
They didn't say "Lord,Lord, did we not accept You, the work YOU did on the cross, and believe in Your resurrection?"[/FONT]
21 [FONT="]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the Will of my Father in Heaven".
[/FONT][h=1]John 6:40New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 6:29New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Not quite sure how plainer Jesus can be. Those people relied on THEIR work. They told us so.
They didn't say "Lord,Lord, did we not accept You, the work YOU did on the cross, and believe in Your resurrection?"[/FONT]
Yes, that is your preaching. But I think creating an image of God after the likeness of some long haired playgirl centerfold and placing Jesus name on it is demeaning. I think judging God and His instructions as bad, and creating your own religious practices and calling them good, is demeaning. I believe twisting one sentence from an Apostle to make Jesus of the Bible a liar is demeaning.
But it's your Salvation, you preach what you want.
But it's your Salvation, you preach what you want.
Amen. We are saved not by works, but by faith. More importantly, however, we are saved by Grace alone, and through our faith we are saved. However, we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:14-26)
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.
As Paul also describes how we are to approach this in Philippians 2:12:
So, then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I an absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
It is important to note that Faith is the most important aspect. Without faith, works alone is pointless, but without works, faith is dead. It is necessary to first have the Faith in Jesus Christ in his death and resurrection, FIRST and foremost for any Christian. However, it is important to note that when Paul directly refers to "Faith over works" he is particularly talking about works of the LAW referring to, of course, the Mosaic Law of the Old Testament, and is directly referring to the Council of Jerusalem which was all about the Mosaic Law and whether or not Gentile Believers would have to conform to that law. Paul was emphasizing his point that we are not saved by the LAW anymore, and the works that are prescribed, but by Faith in Christ Jesus and the New Covenant, and not the old.
Galatians 6:2, however, even talks about the "Law of Christ".
Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.
The Bible is also clear on saying that simply having said you have Faith is not enough.
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of Father in heaven.
And that is coming straight from Jesus. Even more alarming, as we all should be, is the passages later in Matthew:
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 25:31–46 (LEB)
The Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world! [SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you gave me something* to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something* to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me as a guest, [SUP]36 [/SUP]I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you cared for me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ [SUP]37 [/SUP]Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,* or thirsty and give you something* to drink? [SUP]38 [/SUP]And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you* as a guest, or naked and clothe you?* [SUP]39 [/SUP]And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]And the king will answer and* say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did it* to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it* to me.’ [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! [SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you did not give me anything* to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me anything* to drink, [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not welcome me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not care for me.’ [SUP]44 [/SUP]Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and not serve you?’ [SUP]45 [/SUP]Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did not do it* to one of the least of these, you did not do it* to me.’ [SUP]46 [/SUP]And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.
As Paul also describes how we are to approach this in Philippians 2:12:
So, then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I an absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
It is important to note that Faith is the most important aspect. Without faith, works alone is pointless, but without works, faith is dead. It is necessary to first have the Faith in Jesus Christ in his death and resurrection, FIRST and foremost for any Christian. However, it is important to note that when Paul directly refers to "Faith over works" he is particularly talking about works of the LAW referring to, of course, the Mosaic Law of the Old Testament, and is directly referring to the Council of Jerusalem which was all about the Mosaic Law and whether or not Gentile Believers would have to conform to that law. Paul was emphasizing his point that we are not saved by the LAW anymore, and the works that are prescribed, but by Faith in Christ Jesus and the New Covenant, and not the old.
Galatians 6:2, however, even talks about the "Law of Christ".
Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ.
The Bible is also clear on saying that simply having said you have Faith is not enough.
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of Father in heaven.
And that is coming straight from Jesus. Even more alarming, as we all should be, is the passages later in Matthew:
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 25:31–46 (LEB)
The Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Now when the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [SUP]32 [/SUP]And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [SUP]33 [/SUP]And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world! [SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you gave me something* to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something* to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me as a guest, [SUP]36 [/SUP]I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you cared for me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ [SUP]37 [/SUP]Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,* or thirsty and give you something* to drink? [SUP]38 [/SUP]And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you* as a guest, or naked and clothe you?* [SUP]39 [/SUP]And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]And the king will answer and* say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did it* to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it* to me.’ [SUP]41 [/SUP]Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! [SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you did not give me anything* to eat, I was thirsty and you did not give me anything* to drink, [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not welcome me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not care for me.’ [SUP]44 [/SUP]Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and not serve you?’ [SUP]45 [/SUP]Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, in as much as you did not do it* to one of the least of these, you did not do it* to me.’ [SUP]46 [/SUP]And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
R
What does it matter if you can lose your salvation or not?
If you are fruitless when Jesus comes back it won't matter if you never believed or stopped believing. You're still going in the furnace either way. So how does once saved always saved doctrine change that? Does once saved always saved mean I don't have to bear fruit and I'm still going to be saved when Jesus comes back?
If you are fruitless when Jesus comes back it won't matter if you never believed or stopped believing. You're still going in the furnace either way. So how does once saved always saved doctrine change that? Does once saved always saved mean I don't have to bear fruit and I'm still going to be saved when Jesus comes back?
U
U
Perseverance of the saints (also referred to as eternal security as well as the similar but distinct doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved") is a teaching that asserts that once persons are truly "born of God" or "regenerated" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nothing in heaven or earth "shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God" (Romans 8:39) resulting in a reversal of the converted condition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints
Well, this tells me no one should use Wikipedia for a source of accurate information.
I really do not see your point in referencing these two websites? Rhetorical question, no need to answer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints
Well, this tells me no one should use Wikipedia for a source of accurate information.
I really do not see your point in referencing these two websites? Rhetorical question, no need to answer.
R
You did not answer the question.
Explain how once saved always saved affects the fact that if you do not have fruit when Jesus comes back you will not go into the kingdom.
Calvinists say that person never really believed to begin with.
Arminians say that person either never really believed to begin with, or lost their salvation.
Explain how either doctrine changes the fact that the fruitless person will be rejected when Jesus comes back. Do not distract from the question.
Explain how once saved always saved affects the fact that if you do not have fruit when Jesus comes back you will not go into the kingdom.
Calvinists say that person never really believed to begin with.
Arminians say that person either never really believed to begin with, or lost their salvation.
Explain how either doctrine changes the fact that the fruitless person will be rejected when Jesus comes back. Do not distract from the question.